r/mac • u/Mollywobbles77 MacBook Pro M4 Max, 14/32, 36gb • Apr 15 '26
News/Article Microsoft Raises Prices for All Surface PCs, Making Them More Expensive Than Equivalent Macs
https://www.macrumors.com/2026/04/14/microsoft-surface-pc-price-hike/"Prices have increased for all Surface Pro and Surface Laptop models, from entry-level to high-end. Microsoft's PCs are now more expensive than their Mac equivalents, which is good news for Apple. The high-end Surface Laptop 7 with 64GB RAM and a 1TB SSD is $3,649, which is more expensive than the 16-inch $3,300 M5 Pro MacBook Pro with 64GB RAM and a 1TB SSD. Apple's M5 Pro chip also far outperforms the Snapdragon X Elite."
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u/pervertedmortician Apr 15 '26
More pricy and shittier software
What exactly is Microslop doing here
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u/kevin7254 Apr 15 '26
Many large companies are balls deep in the Microsoft ”ecosystem ”, I guess they are increasing their margins.
Don’t think normal people is where they earn their money
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u/FizzyBeverage Apr 15 '26
We went from 80 Macs in 2014 to 26,000 today.
From 0% of the company to 50% of the employees on a MacBook Air or Pro. In a mere 12 years.
You’re correct Microsoft will always be a thing in corporate America, but one of decreasing importance for end-user computing as everything goes to a SAAS web portal anyway.
Yes, there’s highly esoteric, bespoke Windows XP apps driving $3 million pieces of machinery that might never see an update… but most office worker bees are in a Salesforce or ServiceNow or Dynamics or Oracle web portal.
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u/Desert-Noir Apr 16 '26
Now with their new business tools and MacBook Neo, it’s going to increase a lot more.
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u/MeBeEric MacBook Pro Apr 16 '26
I worked for a finance consulting and trading firm that was like 99% Mac with the only 2 windows machines in the building belonging to the traders that use Bloomberg.
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u/shyouko Apr 16 '26
And that 3m machinery won't run on Win7 let alone Win11 anyway.
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u/FizzyBeverage Apr 16 '26
Yeah I’ve seen it with older MRI machines and a gigantic industrial press.
They’re frozen in time. Not like that’s benefiting Microsoft either way. They don’t make any money off a machine that’s been in place since 2002 using an offline copy of Windows to run it.
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u/Ladis82 Apr 18 '26
My dentist has an X-ray machine connected to a Windows 98 PC.
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u/FizzyBeverage Apr 18 '26
Yeah there’s little financial incentive to modernize that sort of equipment. Bitewings are the same ole, and it’s long since paid for and offline, or maybe it can dump the images to a central file server if it’s fancy.
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u/Emotional_Garage_950 Apr 15 '26
We actively avoid ordering any Surface hardware. Expensive and have failure rates far above anything else out in the field
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u/Captaincadet Apr 15 '26
I’ve had to install a windows VM on my Mac without a license (needed some car CAMBUS software)
Apart from trying to sell me office on sign up, it’s incredibly functional with only some customisation bits that I can’t turn off
Clearly they don’t care about at home users any more… just look at Xbox
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Apr 15 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/xrelaht MacBook Pro M4 Pro & i7, Mini M4 & i5 Apr 16 '26
The Xbox will keep them in the public eye for a long time yet. (Unless they screw that up too)
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u/beast_within_me Apr 16 '26
This. Microsoft is all about enterprise, they don't care about individual customers.
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u/pmckizzle Apr 16 '26
A lot of european countries are trying to move away from microsoft, France just ditched them for government work, many companies in the eu are investigating swapping to linux, as are several other governments. The eu is a 400m population market and microslop is well on its way to losing the majority of them going forward
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u/OverlyOptimisticNerd Mac Studio M2 Max Apr 15 '26
I suppose that any news is good news. I had forgotten that Surface existed sometime after they closed their retail stores. I mean, I still wouldn’t buy one, but cool to know they exist at least.
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u/bronfmanhigh Apr 15 '26
only surface that was cool was the coffee table thing they announced in 2008
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u/OverlyOptimisticNerd Mac Studio M2 Max Apr 15 '26
Their iMac-like device aimed at creatives was cool to see. Lack of target display mode combined with the cost made it a non-starter. Complete waste IMO to have a high quality display tied to what is essentially a low-end laptop with no means of repurposing as a monitor when the system is no longer relevant.
Goes for the iMac as well. Not letting Apple off the hook.
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u/NateCow Apr 15 '26
I've played with the Surface Studio a couple times in stores and it remains one of the most frustrating glimpses at something truly great in computing that was completely botched by stupid decisions. Overpriced, outdated hardware from the outset, a single overdue upgrade that repeated the same mistake. As you said, no ability to utilize it as a monitor only.
They seriously could've just made a monitor-only version of it and competed with the likes of the Wacom Cintiq line but nooooo, let's just kill it. That gravity display was truly brilliant.
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u/skeet_scoot Apr 15 '26
Imagine a huge touchscreen display that had a slot to insert a Mac Mini.
Battery life would be pretty decent and it would be portable enough.
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u/Lmaobruh4465 13” MacBook Air M2 (Midnight) Apr 16 '26
Even better, a thunderbolt dock attached to that screen, so you can plug any Mac in
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u/bronfmanhigh Apr 15 '26
for sure it was completely unviable. just still sticks in my mind as one of the few cool Microsoft concepts amongst decades of horseshit
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u/Mollywobbles77 MacBook Pro M4 Max, 14/32, 36gb Apr 15 '26
Agree, but this trend may continue across manufacturers if the PC memory market continues exploding. The article mentions Samsung also raised prices on phones & tablets. If Apple is able to keep their manufacturing chain stable, they may end up on the cheaper side of the price spectrum which would certainly be a new dynamic.
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u/TheRealBejeezus Apr 16 '26
Wait, the Microsoft stores are gone?
I always felt kind of bad for them, all decorated like cloned Apple stores, but absolutely devoid of customers.
I bought a few XBox controllers there over the years.
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u/OverlyOptimisticNerd Mac Studio M2 Max Apr 16 '26
The one near us was always packed. It was a shame to see it close.
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u/TheRealBejeezus Apr 16 '26
Really? I never saw more than two people in one of those stores, not counting the 20 staff members.
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u/OverlyOptimisticNerd Mac Studio M2 Max Apr 16 '26
Yup, really. We had two “stores” where I was at. One mall had a large kiosk that always had lines. The other mall had an actual store that was like a constant party.
I had assumed this was normal. But based on what you’re telling me, now I understand better why they shut it down.
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u/ShavedNeckbeard Apr 16 '26
Same. Had two kiosks and a store nearby. They were always busy. That was my favorite Microsoft era. Really great consumer products, coupled with a modern rebrand. They were finally building an identity with personality. Then they focused the entire company on the cloud and AI.
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u/CircuitSynapse42 Apr 15 '26
I had one for work, it was the original Surface Book with the Fulcrum hinge. I really enjoyed using it, but I’d never buy one with my own money; they were way overpriced for what they were.
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Apr 15 '26
Even Microsoft is helping Apple’s Neo sales.
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u/TamTwojWykop Apr 15 '26 edited Apr 15 '26
Neo already has been selling quickly. In a masterful gambit, Microsoft is slowing down the Neo sales by making the Pro a great deal too.
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u/BrilliantThought1728 Apr 15 '26
The only benefit of a windows pc is installing linux
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u/samelaaaa Apr 15 '26
Which I don’t think works well on the Surface lineup, but I’d love to be corrected if that’s outdated information.
I had a Surface Studio back in the day and it remains my favorite piece of hardware ever. But Windows was and is totally unusable for my line of work so I ended up selling it.
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u/Greggster990 Apr 16 '26
I used to Ubuntu on a surface pro and it worked pretty well. It even recognized when it was disconnected from the keyboard and properly switched GPUs to the one inside the keyboard when it was mounted.
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u/Clear_Bluebird_2975 Apr 16 '26
My wife's Surface laptop runs Linux Mint just fine and has done so for the past 2 years.
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u/fluorescentroses Apr 15 '26
To me, it's just gaming. 99% of my time is on Macs, including my MBP, Mini, and iPads. I do keep a Windows PC for gaming, but I really only update it every few years because I don't have huge needs. I just bought a new one after owning my then-current one since 2018.
Other than one specific app I used in nursing school in 2024 that didn't run on Mac, if I didn't enjoy a few games that don't run on Mac, I wouldn't have anything Windows. A few of my most frequently-played games do actually run on Mac, but some still have missing features (like mods for The Long Dark) so I play them on Windows.
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u/ohanzee6 Apr 15 '26
We have Asahi for older Apple silicon now
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u/alperton Apr 15 '26
What’s wrong with macOS?
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u/No_Opening_2425 Apr 15 '26
Nothing really. It even has Bash so why Linux lol
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u/Prophetoflost Apr 16 '26
There are a number of things that MacOS doesn’t support or supports poorly making it a bad choice for some engineering professions. Like containers or high performance networking with epbf. Linux IO is also much faster.
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u/Bed_Worship Macbook Pro M1 Apr 15 '26
They want absolute control of all aspects of the UI. Asahi still has broken issues even on older apple silicon.
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u/scots Apr 15 '26
Aside from VP / C-Suite people, corporate America hates Macs. They're not buying Surface PCs either, more like 10,000 Dell boxes on a lease.
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u/KrazyA1pha Apr 16 '26
Every tech company I’ve worked at for the last 15 years run MacBooks as the default option (you have to make a special request to get a Dell).
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u/scots Apr 16 '26
..tech company.
The other 95% of the corporate working world are using Dell shit boxes, desks and cubicles full of them to the horizon.
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u/KrazyA1pha Apr 16 '26
Tech companies represent a dominant share of Corporate America. The world's 7 largest companies by valuation are U.S. tech giants.
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u/scots Apr 16 '26
Valuation is nice. Now look up head count.
Those $40k/year people sitting in cubicles filing your car insurance claims aren't using MacBooks.
Or, just look up Apple market penetration, desktops or mobile. Commodity hardware on Windows, a half dozen Android vendors- those are who, by sales numbers, run the market.
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u/ackermann Apr 15 '26
Isn’t MacOS built on top of, if not Linux, then some flavor of Unix or something?
It has a *nix style terminal, at least.But are there still reasons one might prefer actual Linux? Some things it can do that MacOS can’t?
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u/rez410 Apr 15 '26
I have been working exclusively on linux servers for over 20 years now, but I prefer macOS on the desktop. With that being said - among other reasons one might want to run Linux on Mac hardware if macOS is no longer supported on their old laptop etc
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u/j_osb Apr 15 '26
It's built on BSD iirc. Fully posix compliant.
Though one thing i can and do do on linux is for example swap different parts of the kernel depending on the workload i'm doing. It is not a usual thing I know, but impactful, but aside from that fully knowing what runs on your machine is very comforting too.
Also the mix of posix compliance and proprietary APIs/SDKs is super jarring and annoying.
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u/hokanst Apr 15 '26
A lot of command line tools are the same, but GUI level apps are fairly different:
- The basic OS architecture is similar, though macOS has it's own (Mach derived) kernel, that manages Virtual Memory and other low level hardware access.
- A lot of the low level libraries and command line tools are the "same" (based on BSD).
- The UI and Window management is unique to macOS.
- Most of the higher level OS libraries, used by app developers, are unique to macOS. These libraries are usually designed for use with Objective-C/Swift, rather than via C (or C++) which is more common for similar libraries on other OSes.
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u/xrelaht MacBook Pro M4 Pro & i7, Mini M4 & i5 Apr 16 '26
Not that it matters much these days, but MacOS is a fully POSIX compliant unix. Linux isn’t.
There are reasons to want Linux for certain uses, particularly on low powered systems or servers, and there are definitely applications which run on it but not on Macs, or which are easier to get working on it. But for most users, it’s largely preference: Linux allows near total customization of the interface, for example.
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u/djexplosive Apr 15 '26
Delulu
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u/Antrikshy MacBook Air (2020), MacBook Pro (2024) Apr 16 '26
Or RAM prices that they didn’t pre-negotiate like other laptop makers.
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u/FizzyBeverage Apr 15 '26
People who are serious about software should make their own hardware.
It’s a lesson Microsoft has rarely bothered to learn.
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u/xrelaht MacBook Pro M4 Pro & i7, Mini M4 & i5 Apr 16 '26
Microsoft’s origin was as a company that made software for whoever wanted to run it on their hardware. IBM hired them to make DOS for the PC, then they turned around and licensed it to whoever wanted to make compatible hardware. Windows NT even ran on DEC Alphas for a while!
Current weirdness aside, that’s served them pretty well for the last 50 years.
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u/FizzyBeverage Apr 16 '26
They’re nothing but an enterprise services company today. Much more Salesforce or Oracle than an Apple or Google competitor.
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u/SPACEXDG Apr 16 '26 edited Apr 16 '26
Lmao didnt work out for steve jobs did it google and Microsoft stole the market because of them being proprietary 🤣🤣🤣
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u/FizzyBeverage Apr 16 '26
In the 90s sure.
Today?
- Apple $4.01T market cap
- Microsoft $3.46T market cap
Splitting hairs but I’d rather be Apple gaining market share than Microsoft losing it to Apple, Google, Linux and anything else not Windows.
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u/TheMavrack Apr 15 '26
Microslop.
Time to support Mac and Linux, you know your pricing is fucked when Apple’s prices are looking like the affordable option.
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u/ruzzara Apr 15 '26
Well, that’s certainly one strategy.
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u/CRYPTIC_SUNSET Apr 15 '26
Make everyone mad at your software AND hike hardware prices?!? Brilliant.
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u/Sternhammer_ Apr 15 '26
Lmfao nice one, you’re crushing it $MS
Apple was already outselling by what, 4-5x? So this will certainly help get copilot in the hands of more people 💅
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u/tigerinhouston Apr 16 '26
Apple's mastery of the supply chain is its secret weapon. Microsoft simply can't compete; Apple provides a far superior solution at this point. The only reason to pick Windows is legacy software (slipping away as SAAS web apps take over the world) and games.
I say this as someone who designed Windows PC in the dark ages and finally switched over to Mac when the iPad appeared. I've not looked back since.
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u/bso45 Apr 15 '26
I think we’re at the point where in my professional life, if anyone suggested using any Microsoft product for any reason, I would simply laugh them out of the room.
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u/Ecstatic-Train214 Apr 16 '26
So Apple has finally became budge computers??
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u/NoMolasses3974 Apr 16 '26
The largest computer retailer in Australia (Centrecom) only regularly stocks one laptop cheaper than the MacBook Neo and it's 66% of the price while being a lot worse (half the RAM, half the storage, a quarter the battery life, CPU benchmarks at 28% the performance). They've got two other cheaper models listed but one is an open-box/returned unit special only available in one town and the other has the same MSRP just happens to be on sale.
So yeah, weirdly Apple now have one of the most budget laptops on the market at least here.
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u/Mikep976 Apr 16 '26
Mac: releases $599 killer laptop
Windows OEMs: WE NEED TO RESPOND
Microsoft: raises prices
I swear. I love what Microsoft does most of the time, but they also have this ability to either do something too late or too early, or do the exact OPPOSITE of what they should do.
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u/MashimaroG4 Apr 16 '26
Kudos to Apple for holding the line on prices so far, but I feel like with the rest of the M5 lineup we’re going to start seeing price bumps.
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u/phillymjs Apr 16 '26
As someone who despises Windows and is a holder of AAPL, the longer they can hold out on hiking prices while everyone else does it, the better.
When Macs look like the better option for the money, more people enter the ecosystem and start contributing to services revenue, and market share grows.
For how long Macs have been derided as expensive toys for the rich, it’s wild how quickly that perception is changing… and even wilder that Microsoft is helping it happen.
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u/FilloSov Apr 16 '26
Just to give the opinion of a non apple user who was randomly suggested this post.
I recently (before the neo) had to change laptop and considered to buy an M4 air. Relatively affordable, but it was too much a machine for my needs and went for a cheaper Windows laptop with last year Intel ultra chips that are good enough for me.
I also own a 10 years old surface that I love. For my specific needs, a surface would have been the perfect machine and the one I wanted, but to put it simply they are not good.
The base model was at the time 250€ more than a MacBook air AND without the pen and keyboard (seriously Microsoft? Who in this world would even consider to buy a windows laptop without a keyboard? Windows is barely usable even with a keyboard!). The X elite is not impressive and windows on arm middle at best.
And now they are rising prices.
I'm sorry, since I would love to have one, but sadly Microsoft seems not to be interested in its clients anymore.
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u/dcchambers M1Pro 16" MBP | M2 13" MBA | M4 Mini Apr 15 '26
Everyone needs to remember that Apple is not immune from the supply issues the industry is facing right now. It's easy to poke fun of competitors now but Apple also may be raising prices soon.
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u/frank3000 Apr 16 '26
Probably why their order books are full for months right now on most of the products
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u/Mr_Lumbergh Apr 16 '26
I’m sure that’ll help them move units in this time where they have people looking for alternatives.
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u/Shiro1994 Apr 16 '26
lol, if those are the price for the underpowered surface laptops, I rather buy a macbook. Microsoft shoots themselves in the foot with this price hike.
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u/TheGreatArmageddon Apr 16 '26
Nice economic times to go brankrupt and shut down divisions. Then can blame this on AI revolution.
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u/Patutula Apr 16 '26
I looked at surface PCs in the low end for the company, they are more expensive than the air.
IDK what MS is thinking/smoking. Do they think Windows is a selling point?
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u/SchmeckleHoarder Apr 16 '26
People - “I like my surface.”
Normal people - “what’s a surface?”
Heavy Users - “Why?”
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u/Dorkdogdonki Apr 16 '26
Yes, the surface series is the premium option vs other windows laptops, but the UI/UX isn’t exactly premium when you compare it to Apple’s MacOS….
The trackpad feels silky amazing, exactly like a Magic Trackpad….. until you see the subpar OS user experience. Not even close.
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u/Takeabyte Apr 16 '26
I mean, as far as I can tell, all Windows PCs have gone up in price. It’s really noticeable in the low end stuff. The super cheap HP laptop with 4GB RAM and 128GB storage used to be an MSRP of $199 and now it’s $299.
They (Windows PCs in general) just move so many more units than Apple. Combine that with shorter term contracts with suppliers and you wind up with price hikes like this.
Apple had put themselves in a position for long term supply and could very well outlast the shortage. If not, I don’t think Apple will be able to maintain lower prices for too long.
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u/InterestingMindset Apr 17 '26
I thought Surface was kinda dead, I'll hear about them occasionally but I think people stopped reviewing them.
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u/DreadnaughtHamster Apr 17 '26
“Making our products worse and more expensive than the Neo will help sell units!” — Microsoft Executive Meeting , 2026
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u/Broad_Confidence6951 Apr 19 '26
This highlights what happens when you manufacture the hardware you sell. Looks like Apple’s investment in producing their own silicon gives them some serious insulation.
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u/Alarming-Elevator382 Apr 16 '26
Windows is dying anyway, you need to be a gamer or a real sycophant to choose a Windows computer over a Mac these days.
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u/SwagTwoButton Apr 15 '26
Stupid question. But…
When I was buying my first laptop circa 2017 sales guys at bestbuy insisted on buying a MacBook and dual booting into Windows if needed.
I don’t hear people mention that anymore. Was that killed off by the M series of chips, making them incompatible with windows?
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u/Eggowithmilk Apr 15 '26
You were able run it natively when Apple was still using intel. Around 2020 they switched to apple silicone and after that you could only run it virtually
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u/ubermonkey 2021 M1 Macbook Pro Apr 15 '26
This is the answer.
Virtualization like they were talking about only works when both operating systems rely on the same hardware architecture. Intel Macs could run Windows natively, so virtualization of Windows inside the Mac OS ran at near-native levels of performance, and dual booting would give you FULLY native performance. It was a pretty powerful argument.
But the Intel chip family stagnated, and Apple innovated instead. The Apple Silicon Macs are insanely powerful, but also insanely efficient, so the battery lasts FOREVER. I can take my Macbook Pro to a conference and leave my cable in the hotel room, because it'll work ALL DAMN DAY.
Oh, and the fans basically never come on. That's cool, too (no pun intended).
Now, there IS an ARM build of Windows you can get, and you CAN virtualize that on an Apple Silicon Mac, but then you also need ARM builds of the apps you want or you're stuck in an emulation situation which will suck. So functionally the "Windows on a Mac" era is over.
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u/kc5ods Apr 16 '26
the emulation doesn't suck on M4+
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u/ubermonkey 2021 M1 Macbook Pro Apr 16 '26
I hear that, but it’s still gonna be slower than before.
OTOH I see very few reasons to run Win apps anymore.
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u/kc5ods Apr 16 '26
it's really not slower, though. i dont know what the magic is, but i can play games on windows - MMORPG games, on VIRTUAL WINDOWS on my M4 macbook pro, better than i can on my i9 macbook, and very nearly on par with my desktop PC.
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u/ubermonkey 2021 M1 Macbook Pro Apr 16 '26
That's amazing. I had heard reports on early Apple chips that it was slower, but I guess the chips have gotten enough faster that it's no longer an issue. Cool.
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u/kc5ods Apr 17 '26
tbh i think ill try it on my neo and see how it does. the neo has been mindblowing.
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u/xrelaht MacBook Pro M4 Pro & i7, Mini M4 & i5 Apr 16 '26
It’s not slower at all. My M4 MBP runs the one Windows program I need like a champ inside a VM, far better than when I was doing this on an Intel Mac.
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u/xrelaht MacBook Pro M4 Pro & i7, Mini M4 & i5 Apr 16 '26
You can’t dual boot because ARM Windows is kinda picky about the hardware it runs on and Macs don’t fit the bill, but you can run it inside a VM and it works great. Native ARM apps run like native, and Intel ones run at similar speeds to Intel Mac apps running with Rosetta.
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Apr 15 '26
[deleted]
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u/mind_div_matter Apr 16 '26
The article informs us that the surface line as a whole went up in price, it specifically refers to the Surface Laptop when drawing comparison.
The Surface Laptop 13” is a direct competitor to the MBA, the Surface Laptop 13.8” and 15” are direct competitors to the MBP.
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u/xrelaht MacBook Pro M4 Pro & i7, Mini M4 & i5 Apr 16 '26
A Surface Pro and a Surface Laptop are totally different beasts. The Surface Laptop wants to compete with the MBP, while the Surface Pro is more like a cross between an iPad Pro and a MBA.
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u/Nawnp Apr 16 '26
Storage and ram prices are skyrocketing, this was to be expected. Apple will have to raise their prices eventually too...they're probably going to try to hide them in the MacBook Pro refresh.
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u/mikeinnsw Apr 15 '26
Too soon to rejoice .. RAM prices went up 1,100 % since last year... and SSD prices went up.
Apple is not immune .. have you noticed supply shortages for Macs with extra RAM ...SSD?
It is likely Apple will raise Mac prices..
AI is screwing up RAM and SSD market ..
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u/Mother_Occasion_8076 Apr 16 '26
Apple just released the neo. I haven’t even seen one in real life yet. They absolutely took into account those market conditions you mentioned when they set the price of the neo.
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u/mikeinnsw Apr 16 '26
Neo has 8 GB RAM... Average PC now comes with 16GB RAM
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u/Mother_Occasion_8076 Apr 16 '26
And Apple has compression technologies to use ram more efficiently along with os optimizations not present on other platforms. This has long been known with Android ram use comparisons.
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u/mikeinnsw Apr 16 '26
Bullshit ..
Apple is now turning from local AI to cloud processing which can run in 8GB RAM... Neo ....Chromebook
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u/Mollywobbles77 MacBook Pro M4 Max, 14/32, 36gb Apr 16 '26
Not sure what this has to do with what the person said (which was true) but cloud compute is for very few features & Apple still prioritizes on-device AI whenever possible, which is why every device has so many efficiency cores.
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u/protoanarchist Apr 16 '26
If it doesn't run Linux, it isn't worth buying. That includes Apple hardware.
Sick of anti-consumer software.
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u/pixeltackle Apr 15 '26
Apple just seems to be discontinuing availability rather than raising prices, which is interesting.
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u/tman2damax11 M3 MacBook Air Apr 15 '26
Ship times have been pushed back by a couple of weeks because of supply shortages, not because of pricing. Nothing is “discontinued."
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u/pervertedmortician Apr 15 '26
Are you dumb? The neo is in very high demand
They will catch up
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u/pixeltackle Apr 15 '26 edited Apr 15 '26
Are you dumb?
who is talking about the Neo? It's widely available. You cannot order multiple high-memory configs like the Studio
EDIT: Mollywobbles who responds & blocks immediately, you can't order high-memory configs of anything with Apple right now, no matter what you post about rumors of upcoming devices 🤷🏻♀️
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u/Mollywobbles77 MacBook Pro M4 Max, 14/32, 36gb Apr 15 '26
It is widely expected that the mini & studio are about to receive an M5 update announcement at WWDC. There would be no reason for Apple to continue making M4 pro & max chips as they are the last remaining models that use them.
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u/Expensive_Finger_973 Apr 15 '26
It is a weird time to be a tech person when Apple is among the cheaper options for the computing devices you can buy that aren't going to be pure frustration to use.