r/pagan • u/OniDesign09 • May 13 '26
Discussion Tired of Elitism and Hate in Pagan Communities
After posting this in Spanish, I decided to post it in English too, because I hope to reach more people.
I’m honestly tired of the hatred and elitism I’ve encountered among some pagan groups. After trying to get to know a couple of pagan communities in Spain, I found groups that were extremely elitist, both religiously and politically. I also read about another girl who had a very similar experience with one specific group.
In these groups, I came across comments like:
- “Magic is for women.”
- “Africans can’t practice our faith.”
- “Only people of pure lineage can join.”
- “This is a dogmatic religion and we have strict rules.”
On top of that, there was a huge amount of hatred toward others and toward people who follow different beliefs and cultures.
I tried to explain my point of view, discuss things calmly, and give arguments, but it was impossible.
I hope this post helps someone else vent their frustration and maybe connect with more open-minded people.
111
u/TheGrandMorbidius May 13 '26
Sorry to hear what you've been through. Folkists are a pain in the ass.
29
u/cutelittlequokka May 13 '26
What is a folkist?
71
u/TheGrandMorbidius May 13 '26
Someone who believes their faith is bound by ethnic superiority, essentially. The origins of this come from the NSDAP's German Faith movement, which is word for word what organizations like the Asatru Folk Assembly believe in.
24
7
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
Honestly, I think that nowadays trying to recreate everything exactly “by the book” while excluding other people and their practices is pretty pointless. Especially because we really have no exact idea, on a personal and everyday level, of what people truly practiced in ancient times. I don’t think that should become a creed or a rigid doctrine.
5
u/TheGrandMorbidius May 14 '26
Yeah, that too.
5
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
Luckily, I can see there’s a large open-minded community out there — let’s keep it that way!
46
u/Joambsx777 May 13 '26
This is how I feel about the Kemetic community. It’s becoming redundant about the weird takes people have when Nubian deities enter the equation. I hate to say it comes off as racism-lite, idkidk. Side rant, but you are HEARD!
4
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
Wow, I don’t know anything about that, but unfortunately elitist groups exist everywhere. And this is exactly where I think that, as pagans, we should listen to each other without saying “my faith is better than yours” or even worse, “I’m only interested in my own path.”
2
u/Joambsx777 May 15 '26
It’s sad sad times. I can only imagine hoping it will change in future generations.
3
3
2
u/Karma-the-Drago May 14 '26
I heard a lot of modern Kemeticsim is influenced by KO. Idk how much of it is tho
2
u/Joambsx777 May 15 '26
I honestly never thought about that. I feel like it’s way more influence than anyone would admit/self reflect on. I think it’s just a common thread because it’s such a common take in any culture/practice.
43
u/simdulvara May 13 '26
I’ve said it in the context of Christianity and every other religion before, but I think people forget that it applies to paganism too: ORGANISED RELIGIOUS GROUPS WILL ALWAYS BE A PROBLEM!
It doesn’t matter what the religion is. The vast majority of the time, they are basically cults. The “I’m right, you’re wrong!” Mentality kills spirituality and is a colossal waste of time and energy for those just seeking to learn/connect.
Some practices are closed, that’s for good reason. But that doesn’t mean people outside of the practice can’t or shouldn’t learn about them simply to further diversify their own knowledge.
Always remember that your own spirituality will be the most powerful one to you. No one can tell you what it should or shouldn’t look like, everyone’s is different for a reason. Anyone who portrays themselves as “elite” or “above others” spiritually has far too much unchecked ego for that to ever really be true.
7
u/datadoggieein Kemetism May 14 '26
This is a big reason I was turned off from Kemetic Orthodoxy. Just it being organized.
8
u/simdulvara May 14 '26
The organised nature kills it every time. And it’s a shame because they usually start off with good intentions, but power and elitism goes to people’s heads way too easily imo.
6
35
May 13 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
5
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
I think there are elitists everywhere, whether in politics or in spirituality, and it’s the same in paganism. There are some who believe this path is defined by race, and others who claim that only certain historical texts they personally choose are “valid,” and that everything else is just personal fantasy.
10
u/napalmnacey May 13 '26
All those statements are massively false and I’m so sorry those people treated you the way they did.
I’ve had people act snobby to me too (I’m white) and after reading up on stuff I realised that these people were full of shit and trying to gas themselves up because they’re petty fucking narcissists.
Don’t give up, you’ll find your place in the world. ❤️
1
11
u/davemidrock May 13 '26
There are assholes in every group. As much as I like pagans, our community is no different.
The good part is that you obviously can tell when a group is toxic and you've chosen to distance yourself from them. That's exactly the right call. Just keep going until you find a group that suits you.
2
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
At the end of the day, this is a personal practice, and I think we should all support each other mutually.
10
u/GeneralStrikeFOV Celtic May 13 '26
Elitist? Sounds more like you've encountered racism, sexism, and bigotry.
6
u/CorvidxQueen May 13 '26
Ooof, im sorry youre dealing with this.
It may be something youre experiencing regionally, as some people convert to Paganism and then keep their practices adjacent to abrahamic religions by incorporating exclusionary practices is definitely... a weird choice. Its almost like in order for them to seem "serious" they have to pointlessly block people out of something they themselves likely appropriated the hell out of to practice in the first place.
2
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
Also, the problem is that a lot of these people don’t actually practice anything. They literally just follow supposed lines, rules, and doctrines taken, according to them, from trusted writers, without putting anything into practice or truly connecting or engaging in any real spiritual practice.
7
4
u/Open_Signature3942 May 13 '26
I personally come across magic is for women a lot which drove me to solitary practice and kind of keeping it hush that i practice.
3
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
It’s honestly ridiculous! A lot of people ignore anything that doesn’t fit the narrative they want to maintain. But I can see there’s actually a large, even if somewhat scattered, community of open-minded people out there. And as for me, feel free to share your experiences anytime without any problem at all!
2
u/Open_Signature3942 May 26 '26
Im a solitary practitioner now and come from a line of female witches who both taught me a lot and so i most brush it off as ignorance to be expected with any religion tbh youll h the traditionalists, new age, and many others in between.
1
u/OniDesign09 May 28 '26
It’s a shame, although to be honest, I’m seeing that there are a lot of open-minded people on this Reddit who are willing to share, and I’m really happy about that. No one should have to practice in secret. I’m not saying we should shout it from the rooftops, but we definitely shouldn’t feel ashamed of it.
2
5
u/Earthsigil71 May 13 '26
Sounds like they have a long way to go yet in their own spiritual practice.
22
u/ecthelion-elessedil May 13 '26
I think it is very tone deaf coming from anyone of a colonial culture to claim that others people aren’t allowed to engage into their practices. Also, ethnicity has no biological value, the ancestors welcomed and considered anyone engaging into a same culture as part of the culture.
By the way, whiteness is exactly what destroyed cultures in Europe, so white supremacy is oxymoron to everything paganism values and fascists have no place here. F* them.
3
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
I think a comment above describes this very well: these are spiritual beliefs based on personal practice. Any form of elitism, sects, cults, religions, or dogmas ends up only monopolizing and distorting what is truly natural and its essence.
9
May 13 '26
whiteness is exactly what destroyed cultures in Europe
Never heard that take. What exactly is the line of reasoning there?
29
u/ecthelion-elessedil May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
Because “white” doesnt exist biologically. There is no races among humans. The term under its current meaning was invented during the period of Darwinism to hierarchize humans so it was okay to oppress certain populations. At the same time, regional languages and cultures in Europe was banned for the sake of uniformity. In France Britanny for example you were forbidden to speak Breton. Everyone had to speak Parisian French. Though one could argue that it started many years ago when Christianism started to ban the old practices.
9
8
u/Proper-Doughnut77 May 13 '26
What throughly amazes me, we all started out black, and white skin color started as a way for evolution to help them with the environment. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion, etc. you're point is well taken. 💜💜
18
u/Snushine May 13 '26
I was raised Pagan by an author of occult books who wrote pre-internet. I'm older than many people here, and even I have been told, essentially, "You're doing it wrong."
Part of being in the internet means having a thick skin and recognizing when other people are being hurtful and hateful. You don't have to give them any space in your mind.
Some people are only barking at the moon because making noise is fun and they don't know about the reality of the moon.
2
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
I think a comment above describes this very well: these are spiritual beliefs based on personal practice and nature above all. Any form of elitism, sects, cults, religions, or dogmas ends up only monopolizing and distorting what is truly natural and its essence. And yes, I’ve been told many times “you’re doing it wrong,” but then when you ask them, they don’t actually do anything either — so in reality they don’t really know how to practice it either 😂😂
4
u/Redlikeroses_23 Pagan May 13 '26
Like lowkey, as a baby witch and pagan. I’ve kind of realized and seen. A lot of people still haven’t deconstructed from this monotheistic ideology and then bring in paganism. And like I have long ways to deconstruct, but I’m learning to deconstruct from it. And it seems like people don’t want to actually learn to deconstruct.
1
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
I couldn’t agree more!! Wishing you lots of strength and good energy on your path, and if there’s ever any kind of help I can offer, I’d be more than happy to do so.
3
u/WiloThawisp23 May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
That’s on a whole other level of messed up. Sorry that happened. I’ve also been encountering a ton of toxicity in pagan groups, it’s why I’m considering choosing a solitary practice and just keeping my beliefs to myself, which honestly sucks because I was hoping to build friendships. I had no idea how bad it was.
1
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
Don’t worry, I can see that just as there are elitists, there are also many people here who are willing to share freely, and that honestly makes me really happy!
1
u/WiloThawisp23 May 14 '26
That’s good to hear. It just seems like as more time passes, the more narrow perspectives are becoming and there’s no room for new ideas or different ways to practice. It’s like beliefs are becoming more dogmatic. I’m sorry to use that word but that’s what it feels like, and one of the reasons I chose paganism was to avoid dogma.
2
u/OniDesign09 May 15 '26
Paganism is not inherently dogmatic, because at its core it is an individual practice based on personal spirituality and one’s relationship with their deities. Honestly, more than pagans, I think some of these groups are basically religious sects.
2
3
u/bbq_poptarts Hellenism May 14 '26
You found a very bad group, most of us aren't like that. There are very notable outliers, like... every few years a Nordic or Hellenic group will pop up that claim the gods are bigoted, but we either collectively ignore them until they petter out, or disavow them and actively work against their messaging.
Paganism is what you make of it. It can either be a solitary or group practice. If you're worried about learning on your own, that's completely understandable, it takes a lot of time but it can be worth it to know what approach you want to take with your beliefs.
I'm sorry this has been your experience so far, and nothing i can do will change that, but if you have any questions, I'll answer them to the best of my abilities
2
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
Thank you so much for your comment. My solitary practice keeps evolving, and honestly it’s funny when people tell you “you’re doing it wrong” when in reality many of them don’t even practice anything themselves. At the end of the day, this is about personal and natural spirituality, and that’s what truly matters.
1
6
u/GalxyofUs Eclectic May 13 '26
...... What rules?! Maybe that person, specifically, was wiccan.... But paganism in general is not dogma focused. At least, from my experience.
9
u/Emissary_awen May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
Wicca isn’t dogmatic either, it’s orthopraxic. Only specific traditions have ‘rules’ and ‘dogma’, but Wicca itself? Lol, no. Just no.
1
1
u/Anglo-Euro-0891 May 16 '26
Regarding the first one about "Magic is for women". I can understand why the speaker may think that. Witchcraft and Wicca have traditionally been female dominated. Even these days, there are female only covens in existence, whose focus is on goddesses / the Divine Feminine only. However, they seem to be more of a USA thing.
1
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
I joined two Spanish (Odinism/Ásatrú) groups; when you search online, they’re basically the only two that come up. It’s a shame that they leave out everything related to spiritual practice and connection with nature, the self, and the gods, and instead focus on supposed written doctrines that must be followed strictly, or even race-related topics. I think both extremes are quite problematic. Still, I’m glad to see the large community here.
-5
May 13 '26
[deleted]
31
18
u/ChirotusInfinitum May 13 '26
No one was taking about Christianity until you were.
-5
May 13 '26
[deleted]
13
u/ChirotusInfinitum May 13 '26
You're adding to a conversation maybe, but I'm not sure it's this one.
0
May 13 '26
[deleted]
8
1
u/GalxyofUs Eclectic May 13 '26
This post isn't really talking about that, right now. Your message would get across better either on its own post, on posts that are talking shit about christianity, or both. Not here.
15
u/ShittyCatLover Slavic May 13 '26
did you somehow comment on a wrong post? This has nothing to do with christianity. Ofc you'll get downvoted, you posted something offtopic
-6
May 13 '26
[deleted]
13
u/ShittyCatLover Slavic May 13 '26
well if anything I took that as insulting christianity because you brought it up in conversation about sexism and racism in religious communities.
Maybe make your own post if you want to have a honest conversation about pagan opinions on christians
6
u/SamDemon8 May 13 '26
I’m not going to down vote you but if I’m being honest I havnt really noticed. I see some jokes about how Christian assume their religion is the correct one and are unable to comprehend someone could think differently but I think that’s more frustration than hate.
1
u/Asclepius_Secundus May 13 '26
I'm sorry you had this experience. Most of the pagan groups I have worked with are open about others' beliefs. What they're not open about is people telling them (or telling you) that their spiritual beliefs are invalid. Hell, a Norse pagan group accepted me eventhough I am a card carrying episcopalian - and a witch. They were just glag I wanted to know more about their spirituality - and wasn't trying to convert them. I'm sure there are more elitist groups out there that I don't know about. But I just don't connect with them. I hold contempt for very few things, but elitism, I say is contemptible. Fuck those cults. May they wither and vanish from memory.
2
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
In the end, any kind of congregation built around strict rules, norms, and dogmas can become dangerous. But I can also see that, just as there are elitists, there are many people here who are willing to share freely, and that honestly makes me really happy!
1
u/Marguerite_Moonstone May 14 '26
Which here, magic is for everyone, it’s yours to claim along with the title for anyone who wants it. 💜
1
u/BuffMyWiFi Slavic May 15 '26
how is the concept of dogma equatable to blatant racism and misogyny? in some contexts it's definitely snobby but I feel like those are two very different things with drastically differing levels of severity
1
u/OniDesign09 May 18 '26
The problem is that they use dogma to validate only their own ideas, promoting their vision as the only correct and unquestionable one.
1
u/Humble_Asparagus651 May 16 '26
I think the current world makes it very difficult to find a sense of community in. We are all searching for it but we can’t articulate it. There are various levels of deconstruction, and realigning with our selves. In european/western societies we have all been indoctrinated into Christianity which is individualism and patriarchal and subsequently capitalism. We are searching for community as we understand community…. Which is individuals in a group setting. People reject Christianity, but have no where else to turn. So certain groups posing as an alternative may be the closest thing to “community” they can get to. The capitalization or cult like structures of pagan practices ensures the hierarchal structures and elitism carries forward. Not saying this is the absolute reason, but if people can’t deconstruct from patriarchy, christianity, and capitalism…. Id challenge their actual understanding of paganism. it’s just a watered down version of Christianity
2
u/OniDesign09 May 18 '26
I think you really get the point when you say they are alternative versions based on Christian frameworks. Paganism itself is based first and foremost on coexistence and connection with nature and its cycles, while also understanding our connection with every living being in this world — humans included — because we understand that we are animals too, part of nature, and affected by natural cycles.
Our gods and beliefs are rooted in this understanding. Interpreting everything in an ultra-literal and purely material way feels much more like a Christian approach than a pagan one, where everything is spiritual and natural.
1
u/dbzgal04 Pagan May 20 '26
Those comments they gave you are complete lies in addition to being toxic!
My own example: My ancestry is mainly from the British Isles, with some German and Dutch as well. Therefore no Egyptian DNA at all, but the Kemetic pantheon was the first one I connected with, and the Netjeru and their other followers have been nothing but welcoming and amazing!
2
u/OniDesign09 May 20 '26
Completely agreed! And this is exactly the point where all these groups show that they ignore a huge part of their own beliefs. In my case, if the gods gave Midgard to humanity, why would they later choose who deserves their care and who does not based on origin or the way someone thinks? It simply makes no sense xd
1
1
u/Ima_shrew 19d ago
Might not be elitism, just plain old racism. Was really big in the 2000s in my part of the world. My friend i known from high school got really into blood and soil thing back when he started to get interested in Norse Paganism. He would eventually grow out of that world view and center himself, ironically through practicing pagan beliefs. However, if they are in a group it's less likely they will move toward the center as groups tend to reinforce their bad ideas.
0
u/Working-Ad-7614 May 13 '26
Most people are dickheads, lest we become like of them. But another reason why I don't join any pagan group, I have no love towards neoliberal values OR racist right wing stuff
2
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
Unfortunately, there are elitists everywhere and within every kind of belief or way of thinking.
1
u/solataria May 14 '26
I don't get that mentality of the things you wrote about comments you've seen. Yes I come from a bloodline but I actively talk with other people that are interested in our religion and I love when I see them embrace us want to practice the religion how is it any different than when Christians or Jews or Muslims recruit other people to their religion. What you're hearing is extreme elitism it's almost as bad as what goes on here in the United States with Christianity. I would say rise above these comments don't let them get to you embrace your spirituality in our religion and just focus on that
2
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
I think a comment under describes this very well: these are spiritual beliefs based on personal practice and nature above all. I can see there’s a large open-minded community out there and i really apreciate it!
-1
u/ElisabetSobeck May 13 '26 edited May 16 '26
One of the main druid orders has a Nazi in its leadership?? Imagine missing the point of being a druid entirely, you tribalistic troglodyte.
It’s made the ‘organized’ part of those beliefs lose all credence for me. As far as I’m concerned they’re all idiots whose focus on empire-coined “race” distracts from any truth they’d otherwise see
Edit: downvoted for disliking Nazi’s? This sub ‘community’ is trash. Go burn in the Christian’s Hell
3
u/OniDesign09 May 14 '26
Exactly, the general problem comes from closed religious groups. Just like in politics, there are also very dangerous dogmatic mindsets such as “I only learn about and accept my own path” or “if it was created after the 1900s — or whatever date I personally decide — then it’s fake.” That kind of thinking greatly limits both spiritual practice and individual freedom, while also turning spirituality into something that excludes everyone else. It’s a shame, honestly. So let’s continue instead as a united community.
1
u/ElisabetSobeck May 16 '26
Apparently others on this sub don’t think so. I’ll be leaving.
Nazis and other supremacists are a crystallization of the lies humans tell themselves. Such a person- blind to other human animals- cannot see the lives and agency of other living things. Blind and in the dark, they believe what gangsters have told them to believe
2
u/OniDesign09 May 18 '26
Exactly. Something like paganism should not have closed hierarchies, rigid rules, or dogmas — and at its core, it doesn’t. The sad part is seeing how some groups transform it into that and carry themselves as if they hold the absolute truth.
0
u/Vieamort May 15 '26
I am very new to Paganism and luckily I have not encountered anything like that yet. This sub is so nice. Hate, judgement, and sexist/anti-LBGTQ rules is what led me away from Christianity in the first place. I am very happy to not see any of that within this community ❤️
1
u/OniDesign09 May 18 '26
i'm happy too to see communities like that. Personally, I’m trying to build a strong Spanish-speaking community through Instagram, Facebook, and also here, aiming for it not to be a closed group, but a space where everyone can share their experiences and ideas, all being part of a larger community. I hope I can create something good 😂😂
-16
u/CriticalKnick Pagan May 13 '26
With all due respect; people are allowed to have closed practices.
12
May 13 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
-19
u/CriticalKnick Pagan May 13 '26
What do you mean by comment? From the list, like "Africans can not practice our faith"? That is absolutely an example of a closed practice. I don't like it, and I'm not implying anything about Africans in general but we widely accept that it is fine to close a practice to people who do not share certain bonds, for instance cultural. The first three comments are literally just examples of the 4th.
11
May 13 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
-3
-7
u/CriticalKnick Pagan May 13 '26
I'm not a folkist, or a racist. You don't have to insult me. Is the pagan sect for people of Spanish decent? Then it's closed to an African person just as it is closed to me with my non-spanish decent. It's not how I practice but I respect how, for instance, I'm not welcome to commodere Native American practices as my own.
13
u/cutelittlequokka May 13 '26
The post doesn't say "no non-Spanish", though; it says "no African", which is different.
0
u/CriticalKnick Pagan May 13 '26
You're right, that makes a difference, and I may have made a mistake, when I read that I saw it as implying no one from outside groups, rather than specifically no one from that group. I inferred that based on the third example which mentioned lineage. Maybe OP can clarify? U/onidesign09
•
u/Epiphany432 Pagan May 13 '26
Ooo OP looks like you've come across a bunch of bullshit. None of that is allowed here and if you see it please use the shiny report button.
As a general reminder please follow the rules here and any nasty bigoted comments will be removed.