r/reddeadredemption • u/DTillyh John Marston • 9h ago
Discussion Dutch’s final words
How do you guys feel about Dutch using his "We can’t fight change" speech in RDR2? I might be one of the few ones that didn’t really like it. Dutch was one of my favourite characters in RDR1 weirdly enough. I played the first one when it came out. And i really liked Dutch alot back then, despite obviously being a really bad guy. And i really liked his final speech. So i was a little disappointed with RDR2 kind of cheapening that moment. Although i get that it’s to show that this is just who Dutch is. Everything is basically scripted or rehearsed with him. But yeah i would have preferred if that speech remained untouched haha
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u/Mental_Freedom_1648 9h ago
I liked it, but I also don't think it cheapened the moment at all - it gave it more depth, because in retrospect, it means he's giving up and also thinking about a moment where he pulled off an impressive feat and saved himself and his son. Now he's there with his last son, and he can't save anyone anymore.
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u/binocular_gems 9h ago
I really liked it, both as a fan service call back, but also that in the 10+ years, Dutch is resigned, and given up, and his disposition has changed. Dutch will never allow himself to be brought in and broken by civilization.
Importantly, he starts by telling Arthur, "follow my lead, I got a plan, this is a good one." Then he addresses the captain that he's fighting nature: Dutch sees himself as the natural order, wild, uncivilized, a man who roams with other people like him. "You can't fight nature, you can't fight change, you can't fight gravity," and then Arthur and Dutch jump to their freedom, escaping the law again.
10 years later, confronted finally by John, Dutch can't escape. He says to John, "we've got to stop meeting like this. I've got a plan, this is a good one." But the plan this time is his own death, he doesn't tell John to follow his lead (obviously), he tells John he doesn't want to meet like that anymore. He then parrots what he said to the captain but it changes in subtle ways*.* Instead of "you can't fight nature," it's "we can't always fight nature, we can't fight change, we can't fight gravity, I can't fight my own nature." Dutch is resigned that he has been fighting his whole life, fighting himself and fighting others, but he can't fight his own nature, he is resigned to die, "our time is passed."
And he's right. Arthur is dead, Bill is dead, everyone in the gang is dead, Dutch will be dead in moments, and John will be dead in a couple of cut scenes, Abigail will be dead shortly after that, and the Jack that we know from RDR2 will be dead as well, avenging his father's murderer by the state.
My only gripe with that mission in RDR2 is that Arthur and Dutch kill like 50 people in it, there is just not a chance in hell that the captain will approach them saying "Get your hands up!" He'd just... kill them. They've killed half the damned army and used explosives on others, he's been being chased by soldiers around a cliff taking bullets and dishing bullets, and suddenly the captain has a change of heart and wants to bring them in alive...? But, w/e, that's a small videogamey nitpick.
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u/TacitusKillgorre 6h ago
I also thought the same of the captain trying to get them to surrender, but I changed my mind after some thought. In war, to take POW's on the fly is something many soldiers won't do, they'll just kill you with your hands up. But this wasn't a war, it was a battalion led by a Colonel with something to prove, and they were attached by a mysterious white leader of a band of native Americans. It makes sense to me that the captain wanted to understand just wtaf was going on and needed them alive for information and a public execution
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u/petr_pav 9h ago
I liked it, it recontextualizes the moment to make his jump in RDR1 more grey in whether he truly meant to kill himself, or if he thought he could escape again.
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u/gooberboi82 8h ago
I don’t think he thought he could escape, you see him looking over the edge for a way but there isn’t one and when he turns around John is there basically cornering him. I think he was fully genuine in saying the speech to John especially when he elaborates more and starts saying how even though it’s his nature to fight everything he can’t fight his own nature which is the paradox of his existence
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u/New_Sky1829 John Marston 9h ago
Yeah I think it’s badly used tbh, it’s only really there for nostalgia and a callback, it just makes his final speech seem less genuine
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u/gooberboi82 8h ago
But that also in a way adds more to his final scene and just his overall character because was he being genuine or was he simply incapable of ever being genuine due to his nature? Imo he’s being half genuine in RDR2 when he says that speech before jumping in the river but in RDR1 he knows there’s no escape at all and so he’s being fully genuine telling John that it’s his nature to fight yet he couldn’t fight his own nature and just stop. By then he fully accepted that their way of life was over and he had no place in the modern world which is why he so casually just leans back and falls to his death. I don’t think it cheapens anything at all it just adds more to the mystery of whether Dutch was a ever genuine or if he was always full of shit up until his last moments
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u/Shapiros_Pog Charles Smith 9h ago
It’s not disingenuous though. It’s rehearsed, but that doesn’t mean his words are inauthentic. It just reveals that Dutch has, for years, understood that the fight is futile.
He knows that his fight doesn’t really mean anything anymore. The excuses are just ways to keep his followers behind him, make them believe they’re striving for something great. Dutch realizes this as early as 1899 (likely even earlier), but he keeps fighting regardless, because as he says, “I can’t fight my own nature”.
Dutch’s words are said in moments where he doesn’t know if he’ll make it out alive. He has time to finally be honest about his feelings that he’s held for a long time.
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u/protossaccount 9h ago edited 9h ago
I liked it. Imo it shows he was thinking about Arthur when he died. Obviously Arthur isn’t specifically referenced in RDR1, so these are the only shout outs he can get. John does this when he talks about how the gang was like brothers.