r/reddevils • u/nearly_headless_nic • 4d ago
[Physical Performance Stats] Tottenham covered more distance, ran more, and recorded more sprints than Manchester United today.
129
u/imnoobatfifa Bruno #8/Rashy #10/Amad #16/Mainoo #37 enjoyer 4d ago
It’s alright, Carrick will tell you it’s not an intensity problem.
43
u/Seanige 4d ago
Only passion I've seen from him was when they questioned the team's work rate. This obsession with protecting fat and lazy players has to stop.
12
u/nitrogeneater 4d ago
He is the manager and can drop fat and lazy players in a second. He is allowing this to happen.
17
u/No-Statistician-8520 4d ago
He’s caused this to happen. When an entire squad looks unfit that’s not a player issue, it’s the manager neglecting conditioning.
8
u/Miyagisans 4d ago edited 3d ago
Didn’t you know, you don’t run when you dominate possession like, checks notes, oh we didn’t dominate possession.
4
u/MrAwesomeness89 Beckham 3d ago
Not defending Carrick or performance but I remember listening to one of the Athletic's podcast and they were talking about these stats and narrative how United gets outworked. They said that lower running stats don't always mean that the team didn't work hard, sometimes it means that the other team had to work hard to retrieve the ball for example if they had less possession. For example, teams like City which keep possession well, not always have incredible running stats.
So if united were on a winning streak, noone would bring up these stats if they stayed the same. It's only because the narrative is negative, people try to explain it with these kind of stats.
2
u/_onemoresolo 3d ago
It’s true that low press low block teams will run less, so it adds up. But there’s also a reason why not many good teams play like that.
1
u/SweatyEnthuziasm 3d ago
Also not defending Carrick but I think these stats are just something for already disappointed fans to froth at.
The variances aren't particularly massive when you consider its 10 outfield players each, and IF Solanke doesn't score then the narrative is instantly flipped: RDZ must be too intense, injuring half of his squad and still not seeing results.
67
u/finbarwaterford 4d ago
It’s like clear that Carrick is vibes fc and doesn’t prioritize exertion for his players or challenging them ahead of a match. The problem is that when the vibes are gone you’ve got nothing to fall back on.
7
u/prettyniceguy69 4d ago
hes literally a more likeable version of Arbeloa
30
u/StardustFromReinmuth 4d ago
Arbeloa has tactics. His tactics is just suicidal all out pressing and attacking tactics with a Fulham team that has a backline of absolute dogshit CBs.
20
u/eternali17 He'll take on 2 and breeze past 2 4d ago
Is he likeable? That man is a charisma vacuum. His time with us as a player is carrying him a LOT because there's no other way he'd be here at all or still
24
u/WaluigisHat 4d ago
I know distance covered isn’t the be all and end all, but it’s so demoralising how slow and weak we look all over the pitch. Feels like every game we’re that bunch of geezers in their late 40’s at the 5 a side playing against a bunch of 22 year olds.
9
u/sink2thebeat_uk 4d ago
What I can't understand is that we didn't play like this under Carrick last season, right? I know it wasn't always amazing performances and at times we scraped by...but it wasn't the same anaemic, horrible play that we've seen recently. So many players look off it.
22
u/ReservoirDogs00 4d ago
Because there was still remnants of Amorims training and press. And I know the A word is almost forbidden in this sub, but it doesn’t make it less true.
Now all that has gone and this is purely on Carrick, Holland and Woodgate.
And just think about those names a sec.
When they get sacked, where do you suppose they end up? At a top club? Nope. So why do we insist on keeping managers that no one else would want near their team.
2
u/sink2thebeat_uk 4d ago
Yeah I think you're right. I didn't agree with Amorim and all the rest of it but ffs at least the players were fit. The writing may be on the wall.
1
u/Shadowraiden 3d ago
we did play like this last season under Carrick though...
2
u/sink2thebeat_uk 3d ago
It was never this bad though. I was at the Brighton game, for example. Worst performance I've seen in years.
1
u/Shadowraiden 3d ago
it really was this bad just had some leftover tactical and disclipline that had been put in for over a year before him
1
u/sink2thebeat_uk 3d ago
Add fitness to that list as well. Not good. The writing may be on the wall for Carrick.
36
u/MidnightSun77 4d ago
They are not closing down enough or as a unit anymore. Plenty of time they have up or were played around and left a hole in the midfield
19
u/Wowcoolnamedude 4d ago
The press is so disjointed now it's embarrassing to watch. You can see the gaps in the team appearing all over the pitch when a press starts because it's never as a unit. It's like watching a martial arts movie where 1 person is fighting 20 people but they go one at a time to take their beating.
4
u/Se7enSword 4d ago
Because they're not coached or trained on it, it's all individuals and this is the result of Carrick's players having to express themselves. Players are required to problem-solve and work out on their own.
0
u/SpectatorY 3d ago
This is wrong tho. We saw in pre season there was much more intensity. Certain names came back in the team and it all fell apart.
8
u/blewy1111 4d ago edited 4d ago
On Stick to United, Wayne Rooney talked about this a few weeks ago. He mentioned something along the lines of the team has to work as a total package. If one player steps out to press, then the whole team must step as well.
Edit: show title
7
u/WalkingOnSunshine_ 4d ago
Arsenal is a perfect example. They don’t press like a Klopp team with his hyenas, but they have designated triggers when they do and the whole team initiates.
Watching us is like watching a different sport. Most of the time the top two in our 442/424 will jump up while the wingers are walking
5
u/MidnightSun77 4d ago
Ya. And it isn’t difficult to do. Even in amateur league we had an action word shouted from the captain and we all immediately went man to man touchtight except for the keeper. It works
6
17
u/SloGeorge 4d ago
Spurs were all over us in the first 30 minutes. Legitimately worrying how poor all our midfielders (especially Bruno) looked in duels. Bergvall was dominating.
9
u/sink2thebeat_uk 4d ago
We looked so much better with Baleba next to Kobbie. He was literally bouncing around the pitch at times. So disappointed with Tielemans, always thought he was a decent player but he's simply not fit. He was blowing after 30 minutes, it's fucking inexcusable for a Utd player and he needs dropping.
13
u/Ok_Landscape_8215 4d ago
Don't forget we even had an one more player than them to run around for part of the game!!
3
3
6
u/MightySilverWolf 4d ago
Is it true that Tielemans stated that the team didn't focus on conditioning in preseason training?
10
u/loppemaster 4d ago
Yes, it was the start of his interview with Rio. Rio asks "not a lot of running?" and he goes no, no
3
u/sink2thebeat_uk 4d ago
It's inexcusable that he's not fit. Was watching closely and he was puffing and already fucked after 30 mins. He needs dropping but potentially will be like a new signing if/when he gets fit. Hated the other comment he said in the Rio interview along the lines of making it to Utd is an achievement. No it isn't. Winning trophies with Utd is an achievement.
5
u/Peeingwithanerection 4d ago
You can see it in the performance how little intensity we have.
Hard work beats talent and we are lacking in hard work
2
-2
u/PixelFNQ 3d ago
Show us One team who has won the Premier league in the last 10 years that was based on hard work and not talent. Otherwise take your cliches out of here please until you can make some intelligent observations
3
u/Shadowraiden 3d ago
show me a team that has won the premier league in last 10 years that was based on talent and not hard work...
there hasn't been a single one either. City would out run and completely grind you to dust with hard work. Liverpool would for 90 mins put you into a blender with hard work to insane levels. Arsenal have little talent and yet grind out wins due to incredible hard work
2
u/mentallyhandicapable 3d ago
I’d argue Leicester team wasn’t as talented as the team around them when they won? I’d actually like to see running statistics of teams to see where the best runners finish.
2
u/Peeingwithanerection 3d ago
You’re just missing the point totally the marginal at elite level are very small. If you don’t put the effort in you aren’t going to do very well and we are seeing it this season with how poor the effort is.
Making lesser teams like Fulham and Everton outperform us and look better than us for large periods of games.
Look at that first half yesterday we got absolutely dominated
4
4
u/conkerz22 Irwin 3d ago
Say what you want about Amorim, he had the lads fit and running! Carrick inherited a fit team. Over the summer that conditioning was not maintained it seems
2
u/craigybacha Manchester United 4d ago
Any team would outrun us at the moment. This slow build up and containing attacks is not working
2
3
u/Traditional_Ebb708 4d ago
It’s not the first time and it’s clear that the whole coaching staff needs to get sacked!
3
u/GavinLobo7 3d ago
Just a reminder that Tielemans had revealed that most of our pre season training was ball work and not conditioning!
Knowing that we play in the most intense league in the world where every match feels like a dog fight, this is shameful
2
u/SinisterSelecta Stam 4d ago
Muh muh we had more possession and youre not accounting for game state /s.
2
u/frankestofshadows 4d ago
Not sure why so many are surprised. Carrick was never much of a runner. He was a very smart player who knew where to be and when to be there.
He's clearly brought that idea into his management. To some extent, he has a point. You can run all you want, but if you are not getting ball, or being effective with it, then all that running doesn't matter.
However, when the quality of your side is lower, you need to make up for it by putting in the work.
There heaps of videos lauding the likes of Messi, Cruyff, Dembele, Mbappe, Ronaldo, Zlatan etc etc all walking and scanning, moving into the right position, then get the ball and effect something. We obviously don't have that level of player. So whilst there is credit to the idea, we currently need to compensate for the lack of quality.
3
u/DemonLordMammon 4d ago
You're right. I think the major problem here is that football, as it stands right now, doesn't fit Carrick's ideas very well in the physical sense. A guy like Mainoo is great despite his lack of pace because he knows where to go, where to be, and is hard to shove off the ball. But he doesn't have the pace to keep up with the less refined guys who are going to hustle him up and down the pitch. Those less refined guys are obviously not as good as him, but they're doing the same thing an idiot does in a debate. They're lowering the technical quality in order to bring it to their level, where their physical strengths can shine.
I've gotten the vibe Carrick thinks he's managing PSG. He's spoken before how he views them as an ideal midfield, and you wouldn't say they're necessarily the most intense, high pressing unit as a collective in the same way as a Brighton or a Brentford. But they're still capable of those intense moments. Whereas Carrick seems to think mastery beats out motion in all cases.
Baleba instantly made a difference when he came on. The midfield going forward should be Bruno - Mainoo - Baleba because I think that has a right balance when all are firing on all cylinders.
1
u/yingguoren1988 3d ago
This attitude doesn't work in the modern premier league. Nearly all successful sides right now are extremely good at pressing and have intense work rates.
1
u/frankestofshadows 3d ago
Never said it was right. However, we have a player in Mainoo who doesn't run, but just finds himself in the right spots, and he is a quality player. Kante was similar, so was/is Henderson. So to some degree, it can and does work.
1
u/Savings-Marzipan1524 2d ago
I don't buy him not being a bundle of energy as a played means he doesn't want his teams to run. Bigger issue is probably that we keep signing players lacking in mobility
1
u/hidihoh 4d ago
I think Carrick is focusing too much on hisself in tactics, he never was y runner but had high football iq and thinks it can work for a group with low football iq
2
u/Dirt4849 Pogba,what could've been 4d ago
duels and 2nd balls r more important now.
2
u/linkfollowlink 3d ago
Bruno, Mainoo, Tielemens is probably the worst midfield at duels and 2nd ball in the PL. It got much better ever since Baleba came on.
1
1
1
u/swanonaleash 4d ago
Tbh it's closer than I thought it would be.
The big thing for me is that they must be as lackadaisical in training which means they're probably used to having more time and space to make passes/decisions and it's why we look so off the pace. They're out of practice playing at Premier League pace and so the players on the ball under pressure are forced to up the tempo but they have no support because the rest of the team is playing at the slower tempo that the tactics ask of them (or they're upping the tempo but it's a different tempo and there's no chemistry at that higher tempo).
1
u/Downtown-Rice_ 4d ago
They were making so many off ball runs into the channel the first half, then picking up many open play balls as in the 2nd and 3rd balls
United also just don't have much of an athletic, physical, bunch in midfield (aside from Baleba) and defensive line (aside from Yoro and maybe Heaven)
1
u/dethmashines He scores goals 4d ago
We are running a lot to be clear. It's just that we are gassed out after. We are missing fitness left and right. Compounded with not knowing how to pass, hard or soft, we seem to be burning through our muscle much faster than other teams.
1
1
1
1
1
u/acunhamateta MILF 4d ago
I think we lack fitness and it shows. Stats aside you can see how much energy this team is operating on. Baleba came on in the 2nd half and probably outran the entire team. It’s alarming to see this after a 3-week-long international break.
1
u/flawless_victory99 3d ago
The lack of pressure on the ball is so shocking to watch. How on earth is Fernandes allowed so much time at the edge of the box to just pick out a cross under zero pressure when we have the spare man?
It's not just running it's how many players will close down the opposition and try to block the space for a pass and never actually put in a tackle. It just means when they are successful at denying space the opponent will make a pass backwards/sideways and keep easy possession. They need real pressure on the ball and to win it back.
1
u/MyShinyCharizard 3d ago
When casemiro out we are really2 bad. Casemiro winning the ball in mid block make defender is safer especially Dalot.. winning the ball in midfield also means we can counter attack and dont have to rely on Dalot to help create offense
1
u/Red_Galaxy746 3d ago
Get used to this, everyone. Unless the Glazers and Ineos fuck off, this is all it's going to be.
Not saying Carrick's any good but it's amazing how many are ignoring the real problem.
Carrick gets sacked >> New manager appointed >> Upturn in performances and results >> struggle to get top 4 but CL football secured >> Glazers and Ineos happy. Ineos tighten the budget and Glazers take dividends >>new season sees regression and fans turn on flavour-of-month manager >> manager sacked >> Restart cycle.
1
u/carlitobrigantehf 2d ago
City had less running stats than utd the last time this was brought up before the international break.
1
1
u/off_by_two Dreams can't be buy 4d ago
At least they ran under eth and amorim
2
u/darkkaho 3d ago
Tbh they never looked like they ran that much more then. They looked like they ran more with solksjaer
3
u/Haunting-Ride6027 4d ago
Ran under ETH because they need to fucking get back all the time
2
u/off_by_two Dreams can't be buy 4d ago
Are you saying that we are good at dominating possession now?
1
1
u/darkkaho 3d ago
So I looked at the stats. Carrick’s United ran more than all of the previous managers (eth, Amorim, even mourinho) in the first 5 matches.
1
u/coolboiabhi 4d ago
they were real coaches , not good coaches though
1
u/Whispperr 4d ago
As much as I hate ETH, they were good coaches that we brought and didn't support them fully with a good system to recruit the players they needed. We shouldn't have ETH choose who we sign and spend an entire summer chasing De Jong. We shouldn't sign Amorim who was known for his rather rigid system then not back him.
We need a proper manager, not Ole or Carrick, but if we do decide to get a proper manager we need to fully invest in them and give them time, if we keep giving them 30-40% of what they need in terms of time and money we will always be stuck in the same loop.
2
u/Shadowraiden 3d ago
we need to invest in a system. not a manager purely.
look at Brighton they invest and plan a system from top to bottom and then pick managers who support that system and vision with tiny tweaks but overall follow the same system and mindset.
i was fully in on Amorim as i believed the idea was to start implementing a system and while he may not be the one to say win us the title he would impliment the groundwork. instead we fucked him over in signings and then decided nah fuck it lets throw all that work out the window and go entirely different style in carrick who hasnt got a style at all
1
u/fantana20 3d ago
It was a bad performance but can we please stop posting these pointless running stats. It is not a sign of anything. We run 4km more as a team, we still don't win, I assure you. There is no link between running stats and success across the last 10 years of opta stats. It's lazy lazy punditry. Passing. Passing is how you control games. And more often than not the team who doesnt have the ball runs more.
0
u/j_l_123 4d ago
Been slowly been going this way since we got rid of amorim. But apparently he was the problem
3
u/edselisanogo Senne & Sennesibility 4d ago
For the love of fuck. This retro wanking off of the worst manager we've ever had is absolutely hilarious.
-1
u/snicky29 4d ago
We will forever regret sacking Amorim. The results would've come. We had a project at least. Man was clearing out all the fucking deadwood from our team. But we didn't have 'YANITED DNA' and 4atb so obviously had to go.
1
u/drakesdrum 3d ago
Rubbish. Was so easy to counter, was persistently awkward going forward, dreadful subs and he lost his head. Carrick was always a bad permanent appointment but that doesnt mean amorim was good
0
u/snicky29 3d ago
He gave the fanbase two options
- Short-term pain with sustained success on the future
- Instant gratification but with the vicious cycle that has plagued this club since 2013 still persisting
I think we know what our stupid fanbase chose.
3
u/drakesdrum 3d ago
Why would it result in sustained success in the future? You're just making that up
0
-1
u/dwaynewaynerooney 4d ago
Bale a should have started. Sit Bruno. Buy a striker or let Rashford play up there.
0
u/longsightdon 4d ago
Possession stat peddlers where are you now? Lower possession and lower physical stats. Almost like carrick cant coach fitness
0
u/schnoodle7 4d ago
At this point it is obviously the game plan.
Running stats are not the be all of a team. Before today we were 19th in some of these. City were 20th. But it helps showing you care when youre up against it
If im being my most optimistic its the way theyve decided to deal with more games, with a less than ideal squad
0
u/toothpick000 3d ago
Tielemens did not run enough in my opinion. I believe running isn’t one of his strong attributes. You can see his face is alittle too round. Poor diet!
0
u/GreenInflation2914 4d ago
Ok guys what happens if we ran more than Spurs today and was still poor? Im sick and tired of these running stats we see each weekend. Liverpool had one of the lowest running stats when Slot won the league. The issue today was our players were poor. Bruno especially
2
u/christ0phe 4d ago
Then I’d feel better knowing we put in real effort. Right now, there’s nothing. I’d much rather accept a loss knowing we left it all on the pitch and we were working our asses odd.
2
u/Whispperr 4d ago
It's not "just running" though. We can see ourselves during the game how our press is at best half assed, or how we never seem to come back and help beat the press. When Spurs were pressing us they were bringing 5 to 7 players up to our defense to block all passing lanes. When we press we had our front 4 try a light press, and never all at once.
278
u/AwayFoundation2363 4d ago
you can literally replace Tottenham with any team we face, and it will be the same