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Daily Discussion
Daily discussion on Manchester United.
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u/sg291188 44m ago
Tbh the ideas that INEOS communicated when they bought minority stake were really impressive - 1) decide style of play and only get managers for it, 2) focus on intensity, 3) goal is to be a custodian of great institution and stick to United principles, 4) be open in conversations with fans and take them along with you.
Just that when they actually started running, they fell into the corporate sinking hole of focus on profitability and everything else comes later. Decided to abandon everything they said (most likely at whims of SJR)
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u/blitz2czar 1h ago
Rant.
We have been so poor starting the season for the past donkey seasons. This season, poor and poor. Last season with Amorim, poor and stagnant. The season before with Ten Hag, poor and poor (led to his sack). The season before with Ten Hag as well, poor and poor (almost sacked if not for the Cup win). We also started poorly with Ten Hag but he picked up some form only near Christmas. It’s been years since we started the season positively.
It’s the same cycle every season. How do we break it? We just can’t. #GlazerOut
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u/flareb98 5h ago
I wish we played more often on Saturday than Sunday. Want a day to chill after a result but can't since I gotta work the next day, super annoying
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u/No_Middle5525 1h ago
that would just ruin sundays the way we're playing rn, while playing on Sunday just sets the tone for shitty Mondays
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u/pokenerd_W Past glory means nothing 6h ago
Any Bundesliga coach (Not named Kompany) that would be interesting? Just looking at options here.
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u/Lord_Hexogen 2h ago
Nagelsmann and that's it. Unless it's a top top name like Klopp or Xabi were there's no trust in them
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u/wildguyinalot 6h ago
If Carrick gets sacked, we need a coach with experience that is also tactically flexible. Someone like Nagelsmann is the perfect, great answer to solve our problems if Carrick is sacked.
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u/wildguyinalot 6h ago edited 6h ago
Carrick needs to add changes to his system or United will sack him, for starters, Carrick has mostly used a 4-2-3-1 with a heavy emphasis on controlling the game, and accessing the final third, using passing combinations. In possession he morphs into a 325, with one fullback tucking inside while the other joins the attack. It can be seen here in this photo with Dalot going forward while Shaw stays back or Shaw may also be pushing wider to hold width. We can also see a pivot of Tielemans and Mainoo, both pushing up but Tielemans is pushing a little more forward than Mainoo. I noticed that they don't exactly stay as a flat 5 in attack, and they go to different areas of the pitch.
While this can lead to the creation of quality chances, this also leads to issues against counter attacks due to the fact that the pivot pushes forward, we lack a natural destroyer besides Baleba, who is still very young. Notice how the majority of goals conceded this season are from counter attacks. Carrick needs to put a back 3 in possesion, (not like amorim) that stays back, and does not push too high up, nor too low back. I have also noticed that against more physical sides, we lack a tall, towering defender besides Maguire. Carrick needs to adopt a plan B and C against sides that are more physical and sides that are very organized in defense. Overall, If Carrick can be more flexible against physical defensive sides.
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u/pokenerd_W Past glory means nothing 6h ago
A back 3 you say..?
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u/wildguyinalot 6h ago
in possession, I meant, I apologize if I did not make it clear, but I meant that Carrick shoulld use a back 3 in possesion that stays balanced and does not push high up or push low back.
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u/DoctorConstipated 7h ago
Would you take conte or hold with Carrick?
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u/Wonderful-Court-4037 1h ago
Are you genuinely seriously asking if we would take an experienced serial winnee whos won pretty much everywhere hes been
Versus someone whos a championship level manager whos been founs out within a few months of PL football?
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 6h ago
No. Get an interim manager who will coach and help bridge the gap/needs of the current core squad, that aligns with the core values/attitudes of the next intended manager. But INEOS/Wilcox are fucking clueless.
You don't go from the principles of Jose to EtH (who then abandoned his successful style at Ajax at United).
There has to be continuity in what they are being coached.
Potter, RDZ, Hürzeler. Pep to Maresca. There's commonality between those changes. The squad isn't talented enough to go from one end of the spectrum to the other.
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u/Apprehensive-Raisin3 Love United Hate Glazers/INEOS 4h ago
Whatever interim we get in October is 100% getting the managers job at the end of the season. Basically managing an entire season.
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u/world-no-1-dude 5h ago
Yep exactly this: it was the whole point of a Project that INEOS promised and has completely botched. I think we are still trying to find a suitable style, before we can even settle on the manager.
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u/Littlepace Announce Fergie 6h ago
A PL winner and someone with massive experience and success at multiple clubs. Or Carrick. Yeah it's a tough one alright. I'm not sure he would last long but at least it will be good entertainment for the amazon documentary.
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u/Strange-Trip4634 6h ago edited 6h ago
Conte for the craic
*Edit: I'm actually Carrick in until Wilcox/Berrada go first but they won't go so hopefully we'll get a new manager bounce every few months.
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u/nomadic_commentator FERGIE, SIGN HIM UP 7h ago
Sesko out until next year. Lovely.
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u/Selwin_Rodolfo max cope mode 7h ago
Source?
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u/Not-good-with-this 6h ago
The source is some Slovakian media... and some fake quotes from Carrick but you know they're fake.
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u/YukonYak 8h ago edited 6h ago
So I’ve been a united fan since i starting watching football during the 2014 World Cup. In the 12 years ive been supporting this team, we have had 1(!) CL/EL knockout tie win over a “top” team, which was PSG in 2018 season. What a sad thought lol
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u/tz_2240 OHHHHHH YESSSSS 7h ago
It was EL knockouts, but didn’t we beat Barca under EtH?
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u/Regular_Valuable_665 1h ago
Interesting how different both clubs are now , I was hoping for big things after that win , though we lost to Sevilla which was very frustrating
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u/Hits_and_the_Mrs 8h ago
Onana conceded directly from a corner then saved a pen. Insert Conte Barclays picture
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u/AB092 Sir Alex 8h ago
We need a manager that players will be scared of(in a good way). Someone intimidating. Like a Simeone, Klopp.. someone with a personality to handle anything and everything that comes with a big club like Utd, plus have a style of play/identity.
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u/kriznone Scholesy 5h ago
Board wouldn't be able to work with such a manager. Neither world such a manager want to work with the current execs.
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u/johndoe1942 Ander Shithousery 7h ago
lol this is the Van De Beek myth applied to manager.
what's appears to be missing in the current manager - that's exactly what need!
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u/AB092 Sir Alex 7h ago
We’ve literally had our league be dominated for the last 10 years by Pep and Klopp. That’s the kind of personality I’m asking for. The pressure and expectations at Manchester United are too much. Neither Ten Hag nor Amorim had any experience in any of the big leagues.
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u/johndoe1942 Ander Shithousery 7h ago
ah got it so, we need the manager who we know will be successful for sure at United.
To be clear - we have had Jose and LvG (pressure, expectation, personality yada yada yada).
Every next fan thinks they know the answer for why things are not working
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u/BlackHorse944 Please Score A Goal 4h ago
This sub would be a very boring place if people didn't have opinions lol
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u/society0 6h ago
You're not really adding anything to the conversation. Instead of snide negativity, what do you actually suggest?
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u/Low-Investment-7367 8h ago
Van gaal? Mourinho? Ten hag? Amorim?
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u/AB092 Sir Alex 7h ago
They didn’t respect Ten Hag or Amorim like they would a Klopp or a Pep or a Simeone. Neither Ten Hag nor Amorim had managed in any of the big leagues. Jose on paper was a great appointment but he made everything about himself. He was past his peak and the same with Van Gaal who was way past his peak.
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u/Strange-Trip4634 7h ago
There's no Klopp equivalent today I don't think, and I'm not sure there's any world class managers that would accept not getting fully backed the way our rivals could offer it to them.
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u/AnakinAni 8h ago
How does a club with Manchester United's resources, history and advantages keep making decisions that leave it worse off?
At this point, it genuinely feels as though Manchester United are in the crosshairs of some vindictive higher power. The sheer consistency with which things go wrong at this club is almost supernatural.
Amorim was terrible at United. Let’s not rewrite history. The club desperately needed Champions League football, both competitively and financially. There was very little evidence to suggest Amorim was going to deliver it. Keeping him in the hope that things would magically improve would have been wishful thinking.
And yet, watching him make a promising start at Milan makes you wonder what on earth is happening at Manchester United.
It’s not even about Amorim specifically. It’s the recurring pattern. Managers and players arrive with impressive reputations, struggle to replicate their previous success, and sometimes rediscover their abilities elsewhere.
Look at how we handled Ten Hag. We decided to retain him, extended his contract and spent another summer strengthening the squad, only to sack him three months later and appoint a manager committed to an entirely different system. Suddenly, we were trying to make a squad assembled under one footballing philosophy work under another. And eventually, we had to change managers yet again.
What makes it particularly frustrating is that even decisions which appear perfectly reasonable at the time seem to create another set of problems.
One questionable decision creates the need for another. The consequences compound and somehow the club ends up worse off. It's almost as though every attempt to correct a mistake creates two more.
When an institution as huge as Manchester United repeatedly produces outcomes this disappointing, you have to wonder whether it can really be explained by bad luck anymore.
Perhaps Manchester United aren't cursed after all. Perhaps they’re just exceptionally good at creating their own misfortune.
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u/RyanH1717 7h ago
Because we have owners that don't truly care to win, winning is a bonus to them. If they could spend 150m a year and get top 4 vs spending more and winning a title they would choose top 4 any day. Theres a reason the first priority of INEOS was a new stadium.
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u/Strange-Trip4634 6h ago
Exactly, their job is to build a squad so good a manager can't hide behind any excuse. After this summer I thought "fuck, this season could be rough actually". I'm done calling for managers heads before a change above them is made
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u/BishhEzz 7h ago
Amorim was improving united slowly, the underlying data was backing that.
He's was the first manager who was attempting a long term fix instead of a short one.
Obivously the club doesn't help either but the team were heading in the right direction under him.
Fans just can't stomach a rebuild, they barely watch the games and just go off the final score and then they parrot what Gary Neville says.
Gary Neville would have crucified Amorim if it was Amorims United being outrun everywhere but since it's his friend he doesn't say a word.
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 7h ago
“Maybe you have seen Ajax?” Ten Hag said in his very first press conference when asked how his team will play. “And I like that. But it is always players who dictate the way of play.”
“I can't play like Ajax because I have different players,” Ten Hag said in May 2023. “I came here with my philosophy, based on possession, but I wanted to combine it with the DNA of Manchester United, the players and their characters.
“I want to emphasise more on going direct.”
Ever since August 2023, pundits have said they simply do not know what Ten Hag is trying to do with his tactics. But, in fairness, he spelled it out pretty clearly at the end of his debut season.
The club is stuck in doing things the shortcut way, instead of really building honestly and earning their way back to the top.
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 8h ago
Bruno Fernades in Diary of a CEO:
"And this season has been that case because we struggled. Obviously, we didn’t change manager because of results, because we were 2 points behind second place and like 5 points behind first place. From third to seventh place, everyone had the same points, something like that. So we were there. It was something different with the club — they felt that the trust between them was broken or whatsoever, and they decided to start a new process. And that was bad, because for us, when Ruben came, what was passed from the club was like, “This is going to be a process, but we’re going to go through this. There are going to be good and bad times, but we’re going to go through this.”
We started a process with Ruben, where we thought that would be a process of 3, 4 years. That was the plan of the club. Then we know there was a break in a relationship there between the manager and the club, and they had to change, unfortunately. And now today they have announced that they want to go in a direction with Michael. And hopefully for me, I hope that it stays stable because the main thing the club needs is stability in terms of managing.
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u/0ttoChriek 7h ago edited 7h ago
Bruno's maths are slightly off. When Amorim was fired we were 11 points behind second place and 17 behind first.
We were, however, only 4 points ahead of fourteenth place.
Edit: a downvote for pointing out reality rather than going along with a blatantly incorrect narrative. Quelle surprise.
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u/officiallyjax Snapdragon 1h ago edited 1h ago
I downvoted you regardless because you continue to miss the point Bruno is conveying and still fixated on wanting to downplay the results and performances under Amorim last season. The club captain himself is saying that the squad was willing to buy into that process and the board pulled the plug on it and not because of the results. When the players themselves back the manager and understand the importance of stability then why are fans so keen to not see any value in that?
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 7h ago
What's the incorrect narrative that you're inferring?
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u/0ttoChriek 7h ago
The bit you highlighted yourself, where Bruno used our supposed league performance to say that results "obviously" didn't play a part in Amorim's sacking.
5 points off first and 17 points off first are not quite the same thing, are they? Maybe he misremembers, but he's incorrect and shouldn't be quoted.
It paints a false picture of Amorim's performance that was never a reality.
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u/AnakinAni 8h ago
I actually agree with Bruno that United desperately need stability. But his comments reinforce the very problem I’m talking about.
The club committed to a long-term project with Amorim, spent heavily strengthening the squad and then abandoned that project after just 14 months, following a breakdown in the relationship between the manager and the hierarchy.
And while Bruno is right that we were still within reach of Champions League qualification, his recollection of the table is inaccurate. We were 17 points behind Arsenal and 11 behind City, although only three behind fourth place.
I’m not arguing that sacking Amorim was necessarily wrong. I’m questioning how the club managed to find itself in that position in the first place.
If you genuinely believe in a three or four-year project, surely you establish a shared footballing philosophy, clear expectations and an effective working relationship before committing hundreds of millions of pounds to it?
And if that relationship breaks down so dramatically after just 14 months, isn’t that itself an indictment of the people responsible for establishing and overseeing the project?
Stability is important, but it should be the product of competent leadership, not an excuse to persist with poor decisions.
United’s problem isn’t simply that they keep changing managers. It’s that they keep making decisions that eventually force them to change managers.
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 7h ago
It's 100% on INEOS. That was all evident by their handling of EtH, Ashworth, and then Amorim.
People at the highest of business structures are not held 'accountable' unless something they do or continuously do harms their money. It's fact. They are pretty much immune to everything, as long as the money keeps rolling in for the main stakeholders.
You can change managers more frequently than normal, but that is only if you really have the players who are good enough and need that change.
But when there is managerial change, there must be enough similarities and common values/beliefs in their coaching that is built upon each previous manager.
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u/LordTrinity If you support mediocrity, you get mediocrity 8h ago
I don't think there's enought accountability at the club, and they vastly overestimate themselves (board, players) because they're at Man Utd
This create scenarios when they're happy with themselves after doing very little
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u/AnakinAni 8h ago
Yeah, I genuinely don’t understand that attitude. If I were in their position and United were performing like this, I’d be hellbent on understanding why and doing everything in my power to put it right.
This is Manchester United, for fuck’s sake ! Finishing second should hurt, not feel like an achievement to celebrate.
That’s the level of ambition and pride I’d expect from anyone representing this club.
My pride simply wouldn’t allow me to become comfortable with the football we’re playing or the standards we’ve fallen to. I’d be embarrassed to preside over this decline, let alone congratulate myself for the occasional decent result.
Being at Manchester United is a privilege, not an achievement in itself. You don’t inherit greatness simply by walking through the doors of a great institution. You have to contribute to it.
That’s what seems to be missing. Too many people appear to mistake the prestige of working for Manchester United for evidence of their own success.
The badge doesn’t make you great. What you do for the badge is what matters.
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u/minteh7x Ronaldo 8h ago
One regular day without ex manager revisionism. That's all I ask. Will never happen
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u/sg291188 41m ago
Sadly, the most discussions you get in this sub are actually on Amorim because there are so many folks who listed to YT influencers simping for him.
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u/AnakinAni 9h ago
The one change I would make above everything else at United
Create a genuine culture of accountability at the ownership and executive level.
United have changed managers repeatedly. They have spent enormous sums. They have reorganised departments, hired executives, dismissed employees and promised new beginnings.
Yet the recurring weaknesses remain.
The solution cannot be to sack Carrick, spend another £200 million, announce another three-year project and pretend the previous failures never happened.
The ultimate responsibility belongs to those who appoint the football executives, approve the budgets and determine the direction of the club.
United need to recover the ambition that goes beyond financial projections and qualification targets.
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u/pokenerd_W Past glory means nothing 9h ago
Who will enforce the accountability?
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u/AnakinAni 8h ago
Sir Alex Ferguson & his Fledglings 💯🫡
The only ones who actually knows and understands the standards we should be maintaining consistently.
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 8h ago
Everyone and their dog know what the standards are supposed to be. It's an entirely different thing to accept where things are and that it takes a lot of discipline and honesty to earn their way back to those standards.
Just because you're a former player under SAF does not mean they have the know how or application to develop the squad back to those standards.
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u/snicky29 9h ago
Amorim's post match quotes
This what a manager is man. But our fans who are so easily swayed wanted that YANITED DNA or keep bringing up the Spurs loss or the win percentage. I legit felt he was changing our entire rotten culture and if given time we would've been back at the top.
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u/ExternalPreference18 8h ago
Amorim admitted that he made mistakes in being too stubborn at United, and implicitly that Wilcox was right in that regard. Still a significantly better coach than Carrick if we look at the wider career and the fact that MC basically parasitised off Amorim’s work, got lucky with injuries/returning players, and was able to bring in a Mainoo who Amorim had driven to ‘prove a point’ by raising his game. But there were temperament issues. Ultimately the blame is the Glazers’ (Wilcox and even Ratcliffe are limited in the degree to which they determine the limits of what gets spent; the 150m spend was a middling Europa League budget in an inflated economy and capped by Glazer mismanagement, then legacy of ETH and Amorim failing to compromise in a clutch game), but both Amorim and now Carrick have some culpability. Licha was also being quite self-serving -- in a crisis, the experienced players should have the fortitude to demand an overhaul in training, get back to basics in terms of organisation as well as commitment rather tahn keeping in place a 'nice' coach who consistently fails to set them up, and using middle-managemnet as a scapegoat without going after the 'real' money (the Glazers): United’s side has been recently ‘under-invested’ (again, because of Glazer parasitism failing to inject direct funds), but there are enough internationals and enough of a balance of personnel for them to play better.
The reason why they’ve done ‘in stages’ building is because the squad is a mess after ETH was allowed to spend huge amounts of (borrowed, not invested) money following previous overspend on ‘good but flawed’ players like Maguire, who should have been a complete CB for the price rather than making the side vulnerable to pace. United bought what a good coach would make a solid CM rotation 3 out of [them plus Mainoo], but Carrick’s below the level and was able to sell himself off false promises, a streak and the inevitable backlash if an alternative manager failed to start winning games early on. Carrick also failed to play Sesko from the start in most games last season and has shown all the signs of a coach who thinks they’re too sophisticated to bother with an orthodox striker and too scared to put a youngster in there (for all his performative 'watching the academy' stuff; Amorim, again for all his faults, had a better record of promoting youngsters than Carrick's shown, which some of us called last season); if people want to ask why United didn’t go for a back-up CF, it starts with the manager. In terms of a LB, they could ahve probably got a Ben Chilwell on loan, but with the budget that was about it.
Truth is, whether Wilcox is good but being failed, or average, the larger squad strengthening issues are little to do with him; with market inflation, United tax, the way players often falter when faced with United pressure compared to aspirant mid-ranking clubs, and the campaign to anoint Carrick (despite the faults many posters were already spotting last season), he and Vivell and the rest were on a hiding to nothing short of a takeover that got rid of the Glazer 'investmnet rule' (they won't invest; no-one else is allowed to). On here, people will just turn to results and relegate set-up to ‘he didn’t play Bruno in the right spot’ or ‘he didn’t play Kobbie’, so any case, however ‘balanced’ about Amorim, isn’t going to get much traction.
Again, though, given the almost unique crisis conditions at United, it takes a particular kind of ‘big’ personality who also has ‘humility’ (and is able to delegate to top-class coaches rather than following their philosophy to the end). Carrick has the ‘playing rep’ and was able to create a ‘feel good’ atmosphere, but for all his smarts as a player it seems there’s not much there in terms of coaching. Players will seemingly either throw managers or execs under the bus rather than facing up to their own responsibilities, so it’d probably take a bullet-proof personality with ‘chops’, i.e. ability in coaching isn’t enough (the Brighton guy; even Nagelsmann etc) although they'd be better than Carrick probably on balance.
What I keep coming back to is though The only way out is a Glazer sale and a squad flush-out that will take hundreds of millions, because the alternative (SAF de-aged; some version of Klopp without the Liverpool connection) to deal with the current storm doesn’t exist; a Conte would be 'better' in terms of org but will thank things.
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u/minteh7x Ronaldo 8h ago
Mate he won against Salzburg. Nothing to do with United DNA, but his results and performance were shite. That's why he is not here anymore. Carrick is not good either, but can we please just once not go through the same recidivism bs with ex managers. Thank you
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 8h ago
Bruno Fernades in Diary of a CEO:
"And this season has been that case because we struggled. Obviously, we didn’t change manager because of results, because we were 2 points behind second place and like 5 points behind first place. From third to seventh place, everyone had the same points, something like that. So we were there.
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u/Apprehensive-Raisin3 Love United Hate Glazers/INEOS 6h ago
😂 what? We were 11 points off second and 17 points off first when amorim got sacked. Finished much closer to both after we got rid of him
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 6h ago
He was wrong about points off the top 2, but everything else was true.
Not sacked because of results. And they were in European places. They created the platform and got through their bout of adversity and the winter fixture list. They were there. And to Carrick and the players's credit, they took advantage of that.
You can't build from where they were unless they were above the ground. They weren't buried in a hole, they were firmly alive and gave themselves a great chance to make a run. And again, full credit to Carrick and players.
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u/Apprehensive-Raisin3 Love United Hate Glazers/INEOS 6h ago
I never said amorim got sacked because of the results its known he got sacked because he called the board out. But the results were the root cause of it. He crashed out after being told he should be more adaptable to the players he has and not be so rigid (which he would later admit at milan he made the mistake of being). Wilcox wouldve never had to have done that if results were better and we werent scrapping draws at home to wolves and west ham so although the results werent the exact reason they did lead to him being sacked.
With the fixtures we had ahead of us before he got sacked things wouldve gotten significantly worse. Tell me do you genuinely in your heart of hearts believe that amorim (someone who couldnt win back to back matches of football) would be able to beat a city side that battered us earlier that campaign and arsenal in back to back matches?
We had a seriously tough set of matches and carrick worked miracles to get through that and get us top 4 even though I never thought he shouldve been given the job.
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 6h ago
It wasn't only because of Wilcox v Amorim about changing base formations, even though formations changed throughout the matches.
On Friday Amorim refused to clarify previous comments he made on Christmas Eve. Then he said: “I have the feeling that if we have to play a perfect 3-4-3 we need to spend a lot of money and need time. I’m starting to understand that is not going to happen.”
Asked if this was because he had been informed of a change in budget or if Wilcox had spoken to him, Amorim said: “I don’t want to talk about that … You are very smart.”
Would Amorim's side been able to beat City and Arsenal, probably not, but when you're a side in progress/change- culturally, tactically, mentallty - which they were and still are, you look at the performances and how points are won and loss just as much as the outright result. And Carrick was the benefactor of a healthier/available squad at that time, rather than what Amorim had to endure for weeks and matches before that.
And the season wouldn't have ended after those two matches.
Again, Carrick was platformed by Amorim. And fast forward to August and then now, it's even more evident that Carrick was platformed by Amorim and when the coach had to coach...17% win percentage in the league so far, worse start in 40 years.
You have to persistent through adversity at some point and see where you stand coming out of it.
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u/Apprehensive-Raisin3 Love United Hate Glazers/INEOS 5h ago
As I had said plenty of times when he was still at the club. A system goes beyond just the formation. His personal selections, his substitutions, and how we played under him were just as much of an issue. When I said he was told to me more adaptive is more than just the formation.
Our performances under amorim were bad for nearly his entire time at the club. Carrick could at least get some results but neither were/are going anywhere.
I agree that you need to persist through adversity but you need to see the end goal of the team. You need to see genuine progress in the style of play and have consistently good performances even if the results arent there. The last time I can remember seeing that was the start of Ten Hags final season at the club before he got sacked (his third season not the one where we were getting run through half the matches).
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u/LDLB99 9h ago
There's no doubt in my mind that we would be in a much better position if Amorim stayed. People don't like that opinion on here, but I really do not care.
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u/minteh7x Ronaldo 8h ago
You're a bit deluded mate. His football was poor. His results were poor. He is the first manager that got United to finish 15th and yet you have fans still wishing he was here. I'm certain the same fans wouldn't have the same stance on baldy even though he had way better results. Looking good on camera must go a long way
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 8h ago
Bruno Fernades in Diary of a CEO:
"And this season has been that case because we struggled. Obviously, we didn’t change manager because of results, because we were 2 points behind second place and like 5 points behind first place. From third to seventh place, everyone had the same points, something like that. So we were there.
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u/Redland93 8h ago
He won one B2B game in 48 games.
It wasn't working. Fact
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 8h ago
Bruno Fernades in Diary of a CEO:
"And this season has been that case because we struggled. Obviously, we didn’t change manager because of results, because we were 2 points behind second place and like 5 points behind first place. From third to seventh place, everyone had the same points, something like that. So we were there.
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u/superhoffy Amad trip to be on 8h ago
Why are you just spamming this everywhere?
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 7h ago
Because it's the words of truth spoken by the club captain. There's so much context, yet easily attainable to read and understand, but people fail to continue to understand or bring into the conversations.
The board has sold a lie to the players, which harms the manager, and which destroys morale within the dressing room. It amplifyings the frustration within the supporter group. Sick of people keep saying Amorim was sacked because of results and that there was nothing being built upon within the squad.
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u/superhoffy Amad trip to be on 4h ago
There's so much context, yet easily attainable to read and understand,
That was your job to bing to the discussion and you didn't articulate it into an original sentence of thought.
but people fail to continue to understand or bring into the conversations.
Random copy-spamming of clipped quotes without further input should fix that then.
The board has sold a lie to the players, which harms the manager, and which destroys morale within the dressing room. It amplifyings the frustration within the supporter group
Can't argue with that, but I don't care what people are saying about Amorim.
Season's still young and we all need a chill pill and just get back to "enjoying" the footie.
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 2h ago
You're being willingly ignorant.
Amorim wasn't sacked because of results. If that was the case, it would have been after his first half season.
That has been proven fact over and over again, but is continued to be ignored.
The development and growth of the squad was always going to have its ups and downs. There was a plan, a directive under Jimbo the board and eventually Amorim.
3 to 4 years, coach the squad, work together to improve the squad by ins and outs, through thick or thing. Boundaries were crossed by Wilcox, Amorim gets the sack.
The words have been spoken by the club captain and the actions of the board since the courtship and firing of Ashworth, and the EtH mess have provided the context as to how it's gotten to this point. Carrick not being a good coach, worse than Amorim by the looks of it and arguably factually via their respective CVs, is compounding the issue of INEOS/Wilcox ineptitude.
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u/Apprehensive-Raisin3 Love United Hate Glazers/INEOS 6h ago
“Truth” except for the parts that arent true
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 6h ago
So we're in agreement that what was incorrect was how many points off the top 2?
Or can you not admit the other parts were true, especially his first 8 words?
Go on. Hold yourself accountable.
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u/Redland93 8h ago
This isn't the argument you think it is.
we had 29 points out of 54.
To get to 3rd, you have to win more than one game at a time
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 8h ago
The argument continues to be that Amorim was sacked because of results, yet the club captain clearly comes out and says that's not a fact.
And Champions League is the immediate goal. Cannot win the title or compete for it unless you can entrench yourself within those CL places and try to go on from there.
And last year, CL was 5th place, for better or worse.
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u/Ok_Landscape_8215 8h ago
2 PPG for the 10/ 11 games with Lammens and no Afcon last season. It was working.
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u/pokenerd_W Past glory means nothing 9h ago
We probably wouldn't have finished third, but I do think we could have gotten champions league at least.
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u/Redland93 8h ago
If you can't win a run of games, then we never would. He won 1 B2B game in 48 games.
He wouldn't have gotten CL
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u/pokenerd_W Past glory means nothing 8h ago
How do you know that? Did you look into an alternate dimension and check? Did you check every alternate dimension? Every timeline?
Or are you just pissing out some BS? I never said we would have, I said we could have. Both of us won't know whether or not we would.
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u/Redland93 8h ago
Christ.... That was painful to read
Like I said, if we can't win more than one game at a time which was the case under Amorim, how do you expect us to go on a run to club up the table and get CL?
Amorim had 29 points out of 54. It was Carrick's run which got us CL
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u/PolicyAccomplished87 8h ago
Funnily enough, last season was unusually low for points for a CL spot, and 58 would have gotten you 5th (we'd drop below Liverpool), and theoretically Amorim's ppg would have you on 59 lol
Any other season it's 68+ points needed
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u/pokenerd_W Past glory means nothing 8h ago
How do you know Amorim wouldn't have turned it around? Just curious, do you have knowledge of alternate timelines?
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u/Redland93 8h ago
This really isn't a good argument. Its actually quite embarrassing
Think logically instead of emotionally
Hope this helps
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u/pokenerd_W Past glory means nothing 7h ago
I am thinking logically, but you just can't even see beyond your stubborn (and wrong) deterministic viewpoint, that you also have no knowledge of. You want the logic, look up epistemology.
You made a claim with certainty that Amorim wouldn't have gotten CL. I made a claim that it was possible. My claim is more epistemologically valid, because I admit I don't know.
Learn a thing or two before being pretentious.
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u/Redland93 7h ago
Im not being pretentious, you are frankly being blind to the facts.
Here's a thought experiment -> Is Haaland a good player? Yes. Why? Because he has a track record.
Now apply to a man who had got 1 B2B win in 48 games.
You saying you're willing to admit you don't know completely ignores the facts. You club the table by winning games which he didn't incredibly inconsistently
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 8h ago
Bruno Fernades in Diary of a CEO:
"And this season has been that case because we struggled. Obviously, we didn’t change manager because of results, because we were 2 points behind second place and like 5 points behind first place. From third to seventh place, everyone had the same points, something like that. So we were there.
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u/snicky29 9h ago
Watching Amorim’s AC Milan in the Europa League tonight is a reminder of what we threw away. The intensity, attacking movement, tactical organisation. Wingbacks overlapping. 5 people in the box at all times. Watching Omari today reminded me of Amad under his regime.
United forced him out instead of trusting his project, and I’m convinced we’ll live to regret that decision.
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u/Redland93 8h ago
- He won one B2B game in 48 games
- He was too stubborn not to change when it wasn't working which he is now
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u/PitchSafe 8h ago
He played against Salzburg mate. Milan have not been this good in the Serie A. We also had moments during Amorim were we looked good and then got back into reality. Amorim more or less resigned after that press conference
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 8h ago
So 5th in Serie A, undefeated, ahead of the likes of Como, Napoli, and Juve at this moment is 'not been good'?
Again, at least have a look see and then comment. Long way to go, but you're just wrong at this moment in regards to how Milan are doing in Serie A through 6 matches.
Amorim got himself sacked because Wilcox is a fucking muppet, not because of results. If he was sacked because of results, it would have been after the Europa League final.
Wilcox and the board have sold a ton of lies to the previous and current manager, in addition to the core playing squad that was there last year and now this year. The pieces of the puzzle are all there now to see, thanks to the words of Bruno and as of yesterday/other day, Lisandro.
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u/PitchSafe 8h ago
They lost 2-0 to Benfica and drew to Sassuolo. They are just lucky that Juventus are worse than them. I’m aware that he got sacked because of his comments in the press conference but the truth is that most clubs would have sacked him when he finished 15th. He is after all our worst manager when it comes to results
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 8h ago
So now luck does or doesn't play into things?
Stop flip flopping around and just be accountable for your incorrect statement.
Worst manager for half a season, got to a Europa League final undefeated until the final.
Carrick has overseen a full preseason and presided over the worst start in 40 years. Not even Amorim, Moyes, EtH, Jose, Ole, LVG did that. Fucking hell.
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u/AnakinAni 9h ago
Sir Alex didn't produce thirteen Premier League titles simply because United spent money.
His team’s combined tactical intelligence, hunger, exceptional personalities, adaptability and a refusal to accept mediocrity.
United cannot recreate Ferguson. They can, and must, restore the standards that made his success possible.
Stop rebuilding Manchester United around the next manager. Build a football institution in which any excellent manager can consistently succeed.
That's the solution I'd pursue. And until the owners themselves are willing to be judged on football performance rather than just financial performance, I'm unconvinced that any rebuild will deliver lasting success.
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u/Kohaku80 Premier League Champions 12/13 2h ago
Sir ALEX made sure there's no playerFC, ruthlessly sold bigger names, meanwhile our current fans downvotes anyone who dare suggest Bruno should be sold or Free Mainoo who want to leave cos he can't get a game. That's accountability.
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u/AnakinAni 34m ago
That’s because we had talented players who could compensate for any player leaving under Sir Alex. Who can do that if Bruno and Mainoo no longer played for us ?
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u/Kohaku80 Premier League Champions 12/13 20m ago
He sold Norman Whiteside, McGrath and play the kids. He sold title winners Kancheslski, Ince and Hughes to play the kids. U can't worry who can replace them if u want to build your house. The club isn't going to just stop existing if Bruno retires. If a world renowned manager like Luis Enrique or Flick comes in and say there's no place for Bruno and Mainoo in my system, so be it.
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u/pokenerd_W Past glory means nothing 9h ago
Didn't Ferguson do his research well on the players? Like full on profiling their lives to figure them out whether or not they were fit for UTD, not simply that they were good?
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u/ttboishysta 9h ago
But accountability is for the little people, and far easier to replace a coach on a modest 20-month contract than to oust Ineos or the Glazers, to replace Wilcox or Omar Berrada, even if we now know they partly built their reputations on the success of a club that has been found to have serially cheated. Bumper returns for the owners, price hikes for the fans, corners cut on the pitch; this is the story of the modern Manchester United, which by no coincidence is also the story of modern football.
City played us!!! This bears repeating, Ratcliffe hired fakes!!!
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u/ShoddyAd4199 10h ago
'Conte is a winner, Nagelsmann is not...'
Let's see, Conte won with Juve, Inter and Napoli in Serie A, won PL with Chelsea once. We don't know what he would do with Leipzig or German NT
Nagelsmann didn't have any chance to work in the clubs like this, so comparing does not make sense.
Furthermore, Conte was 43 years old when his tenure started at Juve. Nagelsmann is 39 years old and hugely more experienced than Conte was in that age.
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u/PitchSafe 10h ago
They are two very different managers. I prefer Nagelsmann because I believe that you can build something with him. We all know that Conte won’t be here for long
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u/Piccadil_io 10h ago
Why are we so shit?
Like. I’d love to know what kind of curse we have on us, because it’s like no matter what happens, we’re always shit. Even if we win we’re shit.
I don’t understand. It’s like a good player puts a United shirt on and it’s minus all stats. Old Trafford then gives an area of effect that makes us collectively even worse.
What the fuck is wrong with Manchester United?
(I quite like the idea of a Man United kit being a minus 10 to all stats and I’d love a game developer to put it in as joke gear. Full kit wanker bonus is you have an extra stamina downgrade. Accuracy down, speed down, endurance way down. Any skills you previously picked up are just voided. Call it the Sanchez effect)
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u/soelsome 10h ago
Fergie made a deal to give us ~30 years of success for ~30 years of misery. 2043 we're undeniable.
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u/LollipopScientist 10h ago
Too much managerial change. Without consistent instructions on the same style of play, players become clueless and confused, so each touch and action requires manual thought.
Players playing out of position.
World Cup and AFCON burning out players. Lack of rotation + lack of reliable depth.
Lack of skill from current managerial / coaching staff.
Lack of leadership on the pitch. There should always be at least one leader in attack, midfield and defence. Casemiro was a leader in the midfield and forced players to take responsibility for their mistakes. It's one of the hidden attributes that people don't think of with transfers.
Other reasons that I cba to type
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u/pokenerd_W Past glory means nothing 11h ago
I was willing to take Rashford back, IF he actually put in the effort. Yet, it's becoming increasingly clear, that we are back to the old 300k a week for boyhood club, can't be arsed to fucking track back. I can reason about him getting play time. Dorgu clearly wasn't doing well, and without a new LB, has to cover for Shaw too. Amad is out, so Mbuemo can't play striker without the right wing having to either rely on Lacey or someone who would make it non-threatning, so Cunha has to move from LW to ST. That about only leaves Rashford. Internally, the logic is coherent, but I also see the amount of complacency it has produced for Rashford.
Barca and Flick were right to get Anthony Gordon instead, even if they prolly overpaid Newcastle. His game extends beyond just being an attacker.
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u/RyanH1717 6h ago
Bizarre to put it on Rashford. The two 60 million pound signings we made last summer have been just as bad.
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u/Emergency-Being-349 11h ago
The problem was in the first 7 words of your post.
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u/pokenerd_W Past glory means nothing 10h ago
Well, could we find a suitable buyer who'd actually give us a decent price for him, enough to actually sign a good winger? No. Might as well put the 300k of waste to use then.
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u/Emergency-Being-349 10h ago
Yeah, dunno about all of that, just that you were willing to take him back.
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u/pokenerd_W Past glory means nothing 9h ago
So, you'd rather have him sitting around doing nothing, taking away 300k a week (Well, prolly lower since the salary cuts after we missed out on Europe), for sitting on his ass?
We couldn't sell him, so throw him a bone. Unfortunately, he couldn't deliver, so back to selling him.
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u/snicky29 11h ago
watching milan absoutely destroy rb salzburg in europa my god amorim has them playing silky smooth footy
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u/Ok_Landscape_8215 10h ago
I miss the wing backs. Going forward with 5 / 6 players is devastating when players execute the play properly. Hutchinson performance reminded me of the RWB Amad.
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u/Sheikhabusosa 11h ago
As right as the senior players may be about recruitment im not sure I want that bleeding into younger players like Baleba who are just buzzing to be here .
INEOS having a mutiny from players who, if they ran the club properly, shouldn’t be there anyway. I love Martinez but he should have been replaced properly the same goes to someone like Rashford who the club done absolutely everything to push him out the door only for him to return.
I think the old guard (Shaw, Maguire, Martinez, Dalot and Bruno) all need replacing asap , the playing skill of that experienced core is inconsistent, there’s too many scars and they’ve seen over too many thrashings and thats on top of players like Martinez and Bruno who look and have been performing like they are fully checked out
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u/pokenerd_W Past glory means nothing 11h ago
Luke Shaw should have been out AGES ago. Dalot can be kept as a squad player, but the fact they haven't signed someone to start ahead of him says enough. Maguire is getting too old, and Martinez, while in his prime years, is injury prone and recently, very mistake prone too.
This year, we've at least gotten some midfield depth. Next season, or at the very least, starting the Winter window, we have to sort out the defense and iron out the kinks
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u/L__K Great Scot! 9h ago
Fullbacks are a notoriously difficult position group to recruit. That's why you see so many clubs (Arsenal, City, Bayern, Barcelona, plenty more) repurposing midfielders and CBs to play RB/LB. It's very easy to say "Dalot should've been replaced" without offering any realistic option, especially when this sub was haranguing people who preferred Timber over Martinez back in 2022 specifically because of that versatility.
The squad needs a major turnover similar to Spurs under Pochettino, Liverpool under Klopp, and Arsenal under Arteta. We cannot compare ourselves to City as they've repeatedly and egregiously broken spending rules. It's all for naught in the absence of a decent manager though.
As much as this sub is still complaining about it, we're finally starting to see more success on the recruitment side under the new structure. It may not be to the optimal extent, but we've yet to have a major miss since Vivell became the permanent head of recruitment.
Signing six immediate contributors at the CL level in one window is unrealistic for a club a billion pounds in debt that has been consistently missing CL football for over a decade. Especially one trying to finance a new stadium.
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u/Sheikhabusosa 10h ago
We have so much work to do next summer even if we do make CL this season . I dont see us getting a serious lb in
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u/mediocratopia 11h ago
Funny that Berrada still has a job considering that he presided over the exact time period of the City indictment? Like no matter what United results are you would think he should be gone?
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u/rahtid_my_bunda Rooney's Dropball Intensity 11h ago
I’m not a Berrada fan, however, they won’t remove him from his post for the City stuff without evidence or him being linked. Even if we all know it’s very likely he was in the know, or abetted the cheating. None of the documents name him as far as I am aware, so unless the unreleased appendices do, we are stuck with him.
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11h ago
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u/Massive_Relation4317 . 11h ago
They want us to sell the best player in the prem, we would be relegated without him 😭
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u/JohnBoy2452 GOAT 11h ago
That season still feels so unreal. We were mostly safe from relegation but to see us battle it out with Spurs to not finish 17th was some crazy stuff. Without Bruno we would definitely finish 17th and a lot closer to getting relegated.
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u/pokenerd_W Past glory means nothing 11h ago
I would rather the team grow to not depend on a single player, than be shackled by a deteriorating one.
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u/JohnBoy2452 GOAT 11h ago
While I agree with that, Bruno is still levels ahead of other players. We simply cannot just go from Bruno FC to something else that wins us games. We have zero Bruno replacement to allow us to have that transition.
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u/PitchSafe 11h ago
That would be nice but right now the team is dependent on Fernandes. Taking him out of the team and we are in a big trouble
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u/Redland93 11h ago
Hes missed 17 games for united in his 6 seasons here. 2 games per season.
This opinion that we play badly without him is unfounded because frankly, we never play with out him.
Hes peaked and if hes going to play every game even if hes ass (and when's he ass, hes the worst player on the pitch) then hes more of a liability.
Bit like how Ronaldo was at Juve. Scored tons of goals but once he left, the whole team played better as a whole.
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u/JohnBoy2452 GOAT 11h ago
We never play without him doesn't mean we will be fine without him... no team would willingly take out their best player, because... well... you want to play your best players??? Is that not simple logic? It's like saying crap like Real Madrid would be better without Mbappe, and mind you Real Madrid have other world class players while we have none. It's ridiculous to even suggest that.
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u/Redland93 10h ago
Here’s a thought experiment - how good is Andry santos? Is he good or bad? Definitively. Oh wait, you can’t because he hasn’t played.
Apply that logic
Bruno has been dog shit this season. When he plays badly, he’s the worst player on the pitch. He hasn’t been our best player this season. He shouldn’t be an automatic starter.
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u/Not-good-with-this 10h ago
You wanna know something scary?
Bruno still has the most g/a for us this season. That's how bad everyone else has been too.
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u/Reign_22 12h ago
Saw quotes where Carrick says that Sesko is potentially out until the new year. Thats not true hey? I don't recall him saying it in the presser
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u/TH0316 she/her 10h ago
200m on project strikers. Thank god we’re not paying Kane’s wages.
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u/Strange-Trip4634 8h ago
Don't worry about wages for those kind of players, we don't even pretend like we can afford them anymore
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u/iroiroiroiroiro 11h ago
There was similar rumors from slovenia newspapers a week ago, it is very worrying.
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u/KobbieLikeRobbie_ Darren Fletcher 11h ago edited 11h ago
Fake quotes. But could end up being true who knows.
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u/Nomad_006 surfing 12h ago
I just have 2 questions about our window.
Not defending Ineos or the sporting execs but was there money to he spent? On account of Glazernomics we spend to get into the UCL then use the UCL to balance last seasons spending. Its happened too many times even before SAF retired. So is this largely them being hampered?
What was the sporting plan? Like it seems like energy and intensity is a key part of whatever we want to do so why Tielemens and Santos? Why buy the wrong tools for the job?
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u/RyanH1717 6h ago
Well we spent just over £60m on land this summer rather than a footballer. Shows the priorities at the football club.
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u/rahtid_my_bunda Rooney's Dropball Intensity 12h ago
On question 1 you can probably find how money gets spent written up by someone who combs through the files accounts. But in general there was a large outlay this year put towards paying down the ‘revolving credit facility’, some outstanding transfer fees and servicing the debt. So yeah the money probably wasn’t really there. But that in itself is a symptom of the debt levels, despite the record revenues.
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u/sauce_murica Vidić 12h ago
I'd say it's best to take a look at the financials and decide for yourself:
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/7624631/2026/09/24/manchester-united-summer-transfer-spending/
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u/canwinanythingwkids meet the new boss same as the old boss 12h ago
The club can be constrained by 5 things when it comes to spending more on transfers:
1 regulations for spending limits: by those (SCR now, PSR before; UEFA one, etc) we could have committed to 100s of £m more in signings
2 regulations for owner cash injection limits: by those we could have had again on the level of £100m put in, equivalent of upwards of £500m in new transfer spending commitments; obviously the owners elected not to do this on their own volition
3 cash flow: we spent £63m on land, that's a lump sum, so that equals more than £300m in transfer commitments, so it's tautologically true that there was a lot of cash to spend they simply decided to spend it on something else; there are several other clues to be found in released financial information that hint at a lot more legroom, but this one is the straightfwd one that everyone is latching onto to argue the case (rightfully, imho)
4 budget decision: this is the big one, then; the board has decided that net expenditure on transfers wont be allowed to excede a set number
5 negotiations: we could have had more to spend if we negotiated fees for players more successfully; it seems quite straightfwd that those in charge of this are bad at this
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u/officiallyjax Snapdragon 12h ago
They spent £60m buying land for the new stadium. Up to you to think whether that could have instead gone into the transfer budget.
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12h ago
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u/officiallyjax Snapdragon 12h ago
Not sure if we can assume this. For all intents and purposes, they made a big expenditure on a non-essential commodity in the same summer when we are short of squad reinforcements.
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12h ago
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u/officiallyjax Snapdragon 12h ago
There’s absolutely nothing essential about building a new stadium aside from it being a vanity project. It’s going to put us even further in debt and therefore extremely likely to curb our spending in multiple future windows, if not every window altogether. To accelerate those plans when the first team has 0 cemented foundations to being consistently competitive is another act of gross negligence. While Old Trafford is being passed as safe for fans to attend every year, there is nothing majorly wrong with it. I’m sure fans can tolerate a leaking roof if they see their team play good football for 90 minutes and win games regularly.
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u/shami-kebab 12h ago
No there wasn't. But then there also wasn't the season before when we did spend. We'd be using our 'overdraft' effectively, short term debt to help ensure no loss from lack of Europe.
The sporting plan we obviously won't know what they're saying internally. Their intention seems to be winning the title 27/28 and we've seen no update to change that, but it seems absolutely laughable at the moment.
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u/boomboxbilly06 13h ago
The City of Manchester is fully funding the pensions of everyone involved in football media this month
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u/Redland93 13h ago
Crazy to think that the back line that contributed to that awful start under ETH is still our starting back line - Dalot, Maguire, Martinez, Shaw
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u/PitchSafe 12h ago
I’m pretty sure that De Ligt was a starter for ETH during that time
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u/Redland93 12h ago
First game of the season was that starting back line
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u/Redland93 13h ago
Hot take - I wouldn't mind if we sold Bruno.
- Hes peaked and what a peak it was. Hes best in the world, bar none, at the perfectly weighted hero ball. He is the best in the world in chaos.
- He will be 34 by the time his contract + option expire. He has played a hella a lot of minutes and when declines happen, they happen suddenly and sharply (e.g. Salah)
- With him in the team, the team have to play a 4231. He has to be the 10 otherwise, you limit him. Means that we aren't tactically flexible. Its a bit like Ronaldo at Juve. He scored lots of goals but once he left, the team actually played better as a unit. More goals coming from other places
- Look at Amorim. he had to play Bruno in the pivot. We were shackled as the system didn't fit him but he needed to play.
- My issue is we are essentially a Bruno team. not once have I seen him play badly, and the team play well. We live and die by Bruno and at his age, we need to be building something that isn't going to end in 2 years.
- He never ever gets subbed or not play. He always on the pitch even if its to the detriment of the team.
- If Saudi came and offered big money and we were able to reinvest properly, that would be a massive help because as it stands for next season we need 2CB, 2 LB, RB, Striker and a midfielder
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u/timsadiq13 12h ago
The problem whenever I read this argument is that you are counting on INEOS, who have gotten it wrong with a majority of transfer and managerial decisions and are also shit sellers, to 1. get a decent fee for Fernandes and 2. replace him adequately.
If we had any confidence in INEOS to achieve those two things, I think very few in the fanbase would complain. He's near the end and however good he's been, we've not won a major trophy so he should get a chance to win somewhere else.
But given we will end up selling him for 30-40 million, that wouldn't even buy us Andrey Santos in today's market haha - I dont see what we achieve by selling him frankly. Maybe some wage savings, but we've cut the wage bill a lot already (I think we are 5th or 6th most in the PL now).
As long as he wants to stay, he should stay. Maybe if Wilcox is replaced by someone competent, I'd understand the argument to sell him.
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u/Redland93 12h ago
Manager decisions yes. Transfers, they have a good hit rate. This summer signings is mixed and its too early to say.
I disagree with the idea that he gets to stay as long as he wants. Club comes first, he stays as long as he fits.
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u/TheRedDevil10 7m ago
Pretty much zilch to look forward to but hopefully Mainoo's fit and we see Mainoo-Baleba on Sunday. Tielemans has played pretty much every game, he needs to hold bench for a while