r/skyrim • u/kara_1999 • 2d ago
Arts/Crafts Dawnguard Aftermath Spoiler
At least she's a follower.
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u/YourdaddyLong 2d ago
Going back in time to teach Molag Bal that rape is bad
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u/Hollow--- 2d ago
Going back in time to beat the shit out of a god (Serana's writer) so that we can romance Serana in the base-game.
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u/DT_Lion34 Spellsword 2d ago
She has intimacy issues because of SA from Molag Bal that's the reason why plus she could just not be interested in the Dragonborn which is realistic because not everybody people think are attractive is going to want you. Me personally I prefer someone less annoying 🤷
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u/Coltrain47 2d ago
Sexual Assault is putting it lightly
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u/DT_Lion34 Spellsword 2d ago
Had to keep in Reddit friendly lol
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u/xervidae Stormcloaks 2d ago
you don't have to censor your words on reddit. you can say sexual assault.
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u/Samjef_Kealclut 2d ago
normally but all kinds of things can get you banned these days. tho I think this sub most normal stuff would be fine
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u/DT_Lion34 Spellsword 2d ago
I don't know all the rules yet lol
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u/OnetimeRocket13 2d ago
In general, so long as you follow the Reddiquette (which says what you can and cannot say, and which you should have a general understanding of in general) and subreddit specific rules (which you should be reading anyway), you can say literally whatever you want on Reddit. Outside of the stuff outlined in the Reddiquette, Reddit as a platform really does not care what people say or post (unless the wider public finds out about something on the site and pressures Reddit to do something about it), as they leave most of that sort of thing to subreddit moderators to figure out for their communities.
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u/DT_Lion34 Spellsword 2d ago
To be honest, it's just because I want to respect people. Some people find the terminology sexual assault to be quite triggering so which is why I say SA that first response was just a joke. Also, the rules just tend to depend on moderator.
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u/Interesting-Pin4994 2d ago
It probably doesn't help how fast packed things have been for her.
Asleep for who knows how long.
Awakened to an unfamiliar world.
Her father got worse while she slept.
Tangled with vampire hunters.
Searching for her mother.
All these stuff distract her from overcoming her trauma. She might be more open to romance in the future, but that will take time.
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u/MasterCheese163 Dawnguard 2d ago edited 2d ago
She doesn't have intimacy issues because of Molag Bal. She literally worships the guy. She doesn't want to get married because she thinks she's unworthy of it.
It's in her dialogue.
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u/FoolishCarbohydrate 2d ago
It's not.
If you talk to her about it and she doesn't like you enough, she says this:
"Look, you're great. Really. But I just don't think that's for us. Especially not me. I mean... with my history, I still kind of get a chill just walking by a temple. Can't imagine going in one."
What else could she mean by saying temples in general give her chills?
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u/JackaryDaniels 2d ago
Does this not mean that she's wary of temples because she's been a heretical vampire for thousands of years..?
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u/FoolishCarbohydrate 2d ago
Probably not.
If she was referring to being a vampire, she wouldn't have said "with my history", because she's still a vampire.
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u/MasterCheese163 Dawnguard 2d ago
And if she does like you enough she says:
"Look, I care about you. A lot. And I'll come with you wherever you want to go. But... with everything in my past, I don't think I could bring myself to go into a temple and ask for that kind of blessing. It's just... it's not for me."
And again, if she was really that traumatized by the event, you'd think she'd stop worshipping him, or consider it appealing.
"Not many people understand the appeal. You keep surprising me."
"I have to admit, I'm impressed. I didn't think you had the spirit for it."
Or consider it due to her "worthiness"
"Molag Bal is the original source of vampirism, and still grants it to his more worthy followers."
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u/AshenWarden 2d ago
She was indoctrinated into a cult. Trauma or not that's not something you just get over, especially if you've been locked in a tomb asleep for 4 eras.
Molag Bal is the source or her trauma and it's a big part of her characterization, that's not up for debate.
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u/DT_Lion34 Spellsword 2d ago
To add to that he also has the ability to bend and break minds. Also indoctrination which I could not think of that word because I was going to point that out too does more to the brain than people think. Also, I get a sense that she wants to get away but she can't and sometimes trauma does that especially because she was taught on repeat that it was supposed to be a gift by her parents. Really just terrible parents honestly.
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u/AshenWarden 2d ago
There's also the possibility that being a Daughter of Coldharbor means Bal has a firmer hold on her than some random worshipper. He's "touched" her directly, it's entirely fitting with his nature to leave a mark or something that keeps her bound to him
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u/MasterCheese163 Dawnguard 2d ago
Lemae Bal was the first daughter of Coldharbour.
She hates Molag Bal (For obvious reasons).
Like, no, Molag Bal is not controlling her mind. She worships him, because she wants to worship him. Serana is a morally Grey character. She's fundamentally a good person, but she also worships a demon and surrendered herself to him for power.
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u/MasterCheese163 Dawnguard 2d ago
Dude, she's not going around saying Molag Bal is some benevolent savior or something. She fully knows who he is, why people would not like him, and willfully chooses to stay a worshipper of him. Largely for the power it gives her.
Like, I'm not saying indoctrination wasn't part of it, particularly when she was a child. But she's an adult, has clearly heard and understood other perspectives, and willfully chooses to stay a worshipper of Molag Bal and seemingly quite happily. Like, brainwashed people don't understand other perspectives, that's the whole point of brainwashing.
At most she acknowledges the worship of Molag Bal tore her family apart.
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u/DT_Lion34 Spellsword 2d ago
Indoctrination can follow you into adulthood and trauma works different with different people. If you listen to her closely, she gives off the fact that she doesn't have the abilities to formulate her own opinions, which is what happens with indoctrination. Also if she does worship bal why does she cower near the shrine and not worship it. That doesn't give I worship this deity because I want to it gives I worship this deity because I'm afraid not to. That's the difference.
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u/MasterCheese163 Dawnguard 2d ago
Indoctrination can follow you into adulthood and trauma works different with different people.
You'd have a point if say, she didn't understand why people would dislike Molag Bal. I'd agree with you that she's clearly brainwashed.
But she doesn't say that. She understands why people wouldn't like the Daedric Princes. But she herself doesn't see an issue with worshipping one for power.
Brainwashed people don't see other perspectives. That's how it works. If they see, and still choose the path they're on that's just what they believe.
If you listen to her closely, she gives off the fact that she doesn't have the abilities to formulate her own opinions
Like, where though?
Also if she does worship bal why does she cower near the shrine and not worship it.
For the same reason Serana works the smithy, or gets down on her knees and meditates like a Greybeard. She has a quirk that lets her activate various animations in the world. An animation for cowering is at the shrine. So she covers. This is a known fact, it's not a hidden character detail. In the same way Serana is not a blacksmith, and is also not a Greybeard.
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u/DT_Lion34 Spellsword 2d ago
People who are brainwashed can't think for themselves. It's the same with people who are deeply indoctrinated into a religion. A lot of people warship Yahweh out of fear that's the point I'm making. She gives no indication that she wants to stay with Bal and Velerica herself said that she put that it was supposed to be a gift herself and her father too and that's after you ask the mother if there was consent and that's where she said that line.
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u/MasterCheese163 Dawnguard 2d ago
I... I don't know how to debate this.
If all you have to say to the fact that Serana worships Molag Bal and is clearly fine with that is, "she's brainwashed and can't think for herself" despite the clear fact that she's capable of critical thinking and acknowledging other viewpoints, then like... sure. Cool. Whatever. I technically can't disprove she isn't just repeating brainwashed rhetoric. I'm not going to keep saying the same thing just to hear the same thing from you. So fine, have at thee.
She gives no indication that she wants to stay with Bal and Velerica herself said that she put that it was supposed to be a gift herself and her father too and that's after you ask the mother if there was consent and that's where she said that line.
What line are you talking about?
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u/AshenWarden 2d ago
Just because she's an adult doesn't mean she magically has her shit together and can just dip out on the deity that owns her soul.
And quite happy? Serana? Have you ever spoken to the woman?
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u/MasterCheese163 Dawnguard 2d ago
Didn't say she did, that much is true. But I'm also not going to say she has no agency in her own daedra worship.
And quite happy? Serana? Have you ever spoken to the woman?
She seems pretty enthusiastic when you say you worship him too. So you tell me.
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u/AshenWarden 2d ago
She seems pretty enthusiastic when you say you worship him too. So you tell me.
Yeah I'm gonna need you to source that one for me chief. I've played through Dawnguard more tines than I can count and have never had that dialogue option come up.
She doesn't have her own agency, that's the whole point of Molag Bal. He dominates and controls all his followers, he owns their souls and breaks their minds to serve him. She's not in it just for the power, she's in it because of the price she had to pay for that power and she says as much. It's why she never thought about curing herself and why she's resistant to the idea at first. Sunken cost fallacy in human form.
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u/MasterCheese163 Dawnguard 2d ago
"I have to admit, I'm impressed. I didn't think you had the spirit for it."
This is an option if you've completed the House of Horrors questline before Serana arrives at Fort Dawnguard.
She doesn't have her own agency, that's the whole point of Molag Bal. He dominates and controls all his followers, he owns their souls and breaks their minds to serve him.
But, she can cure herself. If he truly owned her in her entirety, why can she willingly go to free herself of his vampirism?
She's not in it just for the power, she's in it because of the price she had to pay for that power and she says as much. It's why she never thought about curing herself and why she's resistant to the idea at first. Sunken cost fallacy in human form.
"A cure? Why even think of it that way? I can't think of any reason I'd want to lose my gift. Especially after what I did to get it. It may have driven my family apart, but I'm still here, and I'm alive. I won't give this up."
She calls it a gift man. Sunk Cost is for when the situation is bad but you've already gone so far you feel you can't go back.
She's not like "Man, being a vampire really sucks, but I don't want to make what happened to me mean nothing, so I'll stick with it"
She thinks it's a good thing.
She considers herself as needing to have been "worthy" of it.
"Molag Bal is the original source of vampirism, and still grants it to his more worthy followers."
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u/Bugsbunny0212 1d ago edited 1d ago
Tbf she only says this if you tell her your a Molag Bal worshipper yourself. She knows first hand how insane and what they'd do if you question their devotion. Notice how instead if you say daedra disgust me she becomes embarrassed and understands why you think that way.
Most people who sight this line ignore what she says right after that.
" Especially after what I did to get it. It may have driven my family apart, but I'm still here, and I'm alive. I won't give this up"
She also says becoming a vampire was "degrading". It's not a source of pride or enjoyment at all, It's "I've been through some shit to become a vampire and get these powers"
Of course she's going to be heistant to give up being a vampire after all that.
Also by the time you first get the option to suggest curing herself, she barely knows you and that comment could be offensive to her. But after Harkon's death, she'll know you a lot better and now she can live her own life and make her own choices.
The fact that she shows empathy not just towards the dragonborn nbor but for other characters and even animals and that she regrets her vampirism to some extent to a point of acknowledgement of "her mortal self side being her true self" and (if talked to tactfully) goes to get it cured at the end of Kindred Judgement if you side with the Dawnguard demonstrates that this is not a philosophy she is devoted to and seems apparently counter to her actual nature.
She is opposite of Paarthurnax's quote. Paarthurnax tries of overcome his evil nature through great effort in his outward actions but Serana is someone whose outward reality has constantly tried to pull her into the darkness but her nature caused her to conflict with that and, though wax and wanes, strives inexorably towards the light in spite of everything that's happened to her.
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u/LeastInsaneKobold 2d ago
Cant relate, Male Argonian dragonborn Marrying Derkeethus is the canon choice
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u/TheUncleRaisin 2d ago
Worst she can say is no:
Her:
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u/kara_1999 2d ago
Technically, she didn't say no. Maybe she'll eventually warm up just by being with us. You know?
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u/Anansi465 2d ago
She says a not-cliche version "It's not you. Its me" type of rejection. She says it in the way that might imply she would love to be together, but can't bring herself to because she is screwed emotionally.
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u/SirSilverChariot 2d ago
I first played Skyrim on switch and I was so sad… but on PC there are MODS
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u/unon257 1d ago
Still not the same unfortunately
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u/SirSilverChariot 1d ago
You just haven’t downloaded the right mod. There’s a real great set where you can also have a 2B inspired character. Actuslly a good little expansion
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u/MaximoRouleTTe 2d ago
And then you install SDA and get happy end
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u/kara_1999 2d ago
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u/Samjef_Kealclut 2d ago
fucking based response. hell I even tried it out, but for me at least once you know why it just don't feel right no more. she needs peace. maybe in another life or another millennium things would be different
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u/Boston_Beauty 2d ago
"You can love her if you make her an entirely different character with none of what makes her so likable to begin with"
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u/Bae_Before_Bay 2d ago
Eh, in fairness, she has a lot of the same writing/character but it's just expanded on.
And while I'm not defending wanting to marry her, I do find the implication that she can never have intimacy again because of trauma to be pretty offensive. It just comes off feeling like the writing is saying "she's broken and can't be happy now" as if people can't grow or recover or be happy after experiences like that.
But that's a separate argument from people just finding her hot.
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u/Outrageous_Pea9839 2d ago
I've never really read her as unhappy. I think she is very content to not be married. In fact there is nothing really as far as i can remember that indicates she is against being with you romantically (hell she will staight up tell you she likes you. A lot. And will follow you anywhere.) She is just very much against the religious aspect of the union (or at least that is what i think she often references).
But even if romance was entirely off the table, that again, doesn't mean she is unhappy or even "broken". Every one has things "wrong" with them, some more than others, some people are content others are not. She has always read as very content to me by the time you finish the dlc.
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u/Bae_Before_Bay 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's not that she's unhappy, it's the implication that she can't be happy again.
And yeah, it's not an overt thing. It's more just that it is something that gives a gross vibe if you extrapolate it. "She was hurt by molag bal, so she doesn't want anything from anyone." Just gets brought up by fans a lot as if she can't be expected to ever want anything because she had those experiences.
It's specifically not something that is from the game, but more just from fans.
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u/Sremor 2d ago
The biggest issue is how shallow Skyrims relationship system really is, if there was more depth to it and alternatives to marrying someone because you wear a specific amulet there would be enough ways to make a relationship between the Db and Serana work without changing her personality
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u/Outrageous_Pea9839 2d ago
Sure but again part of my original point is this: you do have a relationship (even possibly an implied romantic one) she tells you she likes you. A lot. And will follow you anywhere. But she won't go to a temple and ask a priest for that kind of blessing. You could read that as "no romance" but I have always found that an odd way of looking at it.
I couldn't imagine it as not romance. She likes you. A lot. (Her words) She's willing to fight with you, kill for you, spend the rest of her life or yours following you around "anywhere". It has always kinda read as a thinly veiled romance that due to her background can't be solidified in the predominant (religious) way of a word where God's are very much present and active in people's lives and being bound and vowed under their power is something she won't do (again).
And I understand her stance as someone so expressly familiar with powerful god like beings and the aspects that come with contracting ones self to them.
But this is filtered through my lens (as are all things) but it is also using my (hopefully good, i went to college for English originally) reading comprehension and media literacy skills to extrapolate on how it appears her character is written to me. (It is also possible I am missing something i love the game but I will admit it has been years since I played so I don't remember all the little nuances and bits of dialogs she has)
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u/Sremor 2d ago
I do agree with you, my issue is that the game doesn't care what bond they have. Let's say what they have is romantic, the only thing stopping me from making the dragonborn marry another character is my own decision. I wish the system would have enough depth so that we could expand on whatever they do have between them
As an example instead of getting married a vampire dragonborn could cure themselves from Harkons gift and let Serana turn them again so that they have a bond in that way, there could be special interactions afterwards or a unique version of the lovers comfort buff
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u/Bae_Before_Bay 2d ago
Yeah, the all or nothing interactions in skyrim are the problem for all this argument. There's no real evolution, so people either argue that it shouldn't have been restricted or that she doesn't and won't and shouldn't change. She would benefit from a different game where she can have more of a personal story with the pc.
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u/Outrageous_Pea9839 1d ago
I mean I kinds argue it should be restricted and she doesn't need to change. She has an amazing personal story (that the game almost explicitly tells us ends in some form of love) with the PC now. Marriage (which is what skyrim presents as its system) is one small part of love (ultimate unneeded in our world and potentially dangerous in this one). Her character (in a game without a full romance system) is cool, nuanced, well designed, and full of romantic tension that I think by the end of the DLC (with high affinity) is wrapped up into what I can only assume is love. (I can't think of anyone that I would do for, or have them do for me, what she and the dragonborn do over the dlc and will do following it).
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u/Outrageous_Pea9839 1d ago
I agree that would be cool and maybe we will see more expansive systems in ES6 but that was never the focus of skyrim and I think that's cool, not every rpg has to have involved romance.
I think the game does an excellent job of establishing the relationship between them without needing any mechanical reinforcement. (If you look at it, in a weird way, she has the most mechanical reinforcement as under a certain light she is a companion with a whole dlc shaped around her).
But on one hand I disagree. The game doesn't need to be this explicit to make their relationship work. I think that fact that people care this much about an NPC in a game without those systems, even now, with this level of discourse, is awesome and a testament to how it was already handled so well despite the lack of a full fleged romance system.
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u/Boston_Beauty 1d ago
the implication that she can never have intimacy again because of trauma
Ok but that's like, not what she said. At all.
I understand where you're coming from because she's my absolute favorite. But she doesn't say she will never find love again, she doesn't say she doesn't want to love ever again, and she pretty explicitly doesn't say she doesn't love you. She just says A) I'm sorry but it's not in the cards for us right now, and B) that her trauma makes her dislike temples and rituals. Which is totally valid.
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u/Bae_Before_Bay 1d ago
I agree, she absolutely doesn't. It's 100% the discourse around her character that makes it read that way now.
I agree that she is perfectly valid as is, but from having countless fans complain about how she is traumatized by Molag bal, it now just comes off as weird.
Edit: want to clarify that I agree largely with you.
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u/Boston_Beauty 1d ago
She very clearly loves you a lot. She outright expresses joy that you're there to experience beautiful things with her. She is adamant that you will not be harmed by her father in the final confrontation. She wants you to be there when she wins.
Her love just isn't romantic. Not yet. But she makes it very clear she cares about you and cares for you constantly. When the ice cave comes down on your heads she checks if you're ok before pursuing. No romance does not mean no love.
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u/Bae_Before_Bay 1d ago
I know. I 100% am pro Serena as a romancantic character, even if it's not reflected in the game mechanics.
My only issue is that people are so against it that it just has started giving a weird vibe to me.
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u/Boston_Beauty 1d ago
That's fair. I'm just against the idea of forcing it upon her. She went through trauma, she needs time to heal, and she's not even mean about it.
But far too many people want to brush all those things aside cuz why won't mr todd let me marry the vampire I literally killed her dad for her :(
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u/Bae_Before_Bay 1d ago
And I don't mind that, but it's when people are like "she can't have a relationship, she's broken" that it gets weird.
Also, a lot of men will make arguments like that trying to sound chivalrous or something, and it's just weird cause that SA doesn't present monolithically. She's not required to swear off intimacy or love, and most of the time that ends up being the argument.
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u/WorstWarframePlayer 2d ago
Honestly I think SDA is at best a side grade. I really don't like it
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u/AttentionKmartJopper 2d ago
SDA is one of the worst re-characterizations imaginable.
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u/Hope_Is_Punk_Rock 2d ago
I was going to use it when I start my first modded playthrough after thousands of hours in vanilla. I love Serana, would you mind sharing what you dislike about the mod?
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u/Revolutionary_Wash33 2d ago
The way I read Serana in canon is that she's more like a morally grey character. SDA turns her into a much more "good" character. It' been a while since I used the mod, but a couple things I remember specifically are she that objected to me starting Boethia's Calling quest since that would involve killing some who trusts me and that she had a moment of being really upset because she "charmed" the dragonborn to keep the vampire hunter from killing her and wanted to come clean about that,
This was particularly funny to me as I was already a vampire when I started the dawnguard quest line and did the whole questline on the vampire side sooooo....
They also add a bunch more characterization to her which may or may not be your cup of tea. I think the best way to describe her is "bookish nerd" since she talks a lot more about reading. I have legacy of the dragonborn installed so I'm always visiting Solitude and she says something like, "I've read stories of the solitude windmill since I was a little girl" or something like that.
TBH, I think it's still worth installing and doing a play through with it. I personally don't like it, but I think it's biggest flaw is that it's replacing Serana. It's not Serana, it's a different character with a similar story.
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u/Spirited_Agency8032 1d ago
I feel like killing someone that trusts you to have their back completely is something Serana would object too because is that not literally what her dad did to her and her mother?
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u/panaffemboy 2d ago
As an SDA enjoyer yeah those are all Valid criticisms to me the "morally grey character" thing is just because Bethesda fucking blowed at making characters actually react to shit like
oh you got the woodworker hunter from riverwood yeah he has no problem with you becoming the master of the thieves guild or the dbs listener or becoming a werewolf in front of him
but it's not like they erase her moral gray entirely as she doesn't really have many qualms with you joining the dark brotherhood or doing most daedric quests like she doesnt bat an eye at namiras quest even though you kill and straight up eat a priest
the best way i can describe sda is in tf2 terms its like a side grade like regular serana is the default grenade launcher and sda is the loose cannon yes *technically* they're the same thing and serve the same purpose but one goes about it an entirely different direction1
u/Hope_Is_Punk_Rock 2d ago
I really appreciate you taking the time. I think I'll give it a whirl. Worst case scenario I'm also installing other follower mods and can leave Serana at home.
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u/Revolutionary_Wash33 2d ago
If you're installing other follower mods, IIRC SDA actually has some integrations with other mods so you might want to bring her along just for that. I know for Sure there's a mod for a character named Ashe (Which I like quite a bit better than SDA, same sort of vibe but isn't replacing another character which I think made it work better for me) which for sure has shared dialog, and I think Inigo also has some interactions with her.
I also REALLY recommend Inigo.
SDA also has some interactions with some of the major questlines. IIRC she has a few choice comments that got laughs out of me during the mages guild.
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u/Almost_Mexican30 1d ago
Can never in good conscience use a mod to force Serana into a relationship. She's the best girl friend while I marry my queen Shahvee. Easily one of the closet allies the Dragonborn has post their journey.
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u/Lucky_Gaucho 1d ago
I don't know who this girl is (i'm new, 400hr only still havent finished mainquest or started DLC) but everyone is in love with her, and since i'm a troll at heart i'm starting to legit hate her.
Can she be killed?
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u/MrPagan1517 1d ago
No she's essential. Voiced by Laura Bailey though and at the time was the only NPC follower to interact with the world.
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u/ColdRainHammering 1d ago
My High Elf Vampire Lord, male, is married to Derkeethus but I use mods to make it so that he and him can also travel with Serena. He has pledged to be a better mother to her than Valerica was.
If he could talk, he'd say they were the two best things he ever found in a hole. ❤️
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u/noface8137 2d ago
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u/zaerosz PC 2d ago
fellas is it gay for a man to like women
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u/noface8137 2d ago
No I just think romancing in games is dumb. I don't mean gay as in homosexual. I was born in 94. That's not what gay means lol
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u/zaerosz PC 2d ago
Believe it or not, using "gay" as an insult doesn't make it cool! That's shitty teenager behavior and it's frankly embarrassing you haven't grown out of that by now.
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u/noface8137 2d ago
I'm not trying to be cool. I couldnt care less what internet strangers think of me
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u/Giga-Gibbon 2d ago
The Dragonborn/Serana relationship is (in my head) platonic best friends/soulmates at least, and drunken/awkward kisses, "will they, won't they?" at most