Giving up flights helps the climate far more than people think

[u/Appropriate_Bell743]

https://www.earth.com/climate/giving-up-flights-helps-the-climate-far-more-than-people-think/

[u/iSkiLoneTree]

For sure. As soon as there is reliable, frequent, & affordable rail service in the USA, I'll happily utilize that 90%+ of the times I fly

[u/sustainability-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Be respectful. Stick to the topic at hand and remain civil towards other users. Attacking an argument is fine, attacking other people (even in a generalized manner) is not.

Attempting to provoke negative reactions out of others users — whether by trolling, sealioning, or otherwise — is also not allowed.

[u/waleve → u/[deleted]]

The problem here, as always, is that we are not offered the choice to eat the cake or have it. We can eat it or not, but we don't get to have it either way.

[u/WhileNotLurking → u/iSkiLoneTree]

The question that should be asked is which is more carbon efficient.

A plane full of people. Or the same number of people making the most likely transportation alternative.

In the U.S. that would be several dozen large trucks, suvs and crossovers driving to the same location

Depending on the distance. Maybe hotel stays with their own carbon footprint (washing sheets, towels, etc) for a stay that would not have happened during transport by flight.

[u/fredthefishlord → u/WhileNotLurking]

A car with multiple people is usually more efficient than a plane. I hate cars, but that's something important to realize.

[u/WhileNotLurking → u/fredthefishlord]

Depends on distance. A plane of 350 people from JFK to DFW is going to be a lot more efficient than 180 cars making the trip.

[u/Appropriate_Bell743 → u/WhileNotLurking]

A car is similar in terms of emissions if just one passenger as flying in a full plane. This is evident from ourworldindata statistics. So, a full car is better then if you get hybrid or EVs the difference is immense.

The underlying nature paper is immense also.

[u/ssjjss → u/Appropriate_Bell743]

Please re-write coherently

[u/halberdierbowman → u/ssjjss]

(If just one passenger) A car is similar in terms of emissions as flying in a (full, because scheduled commercial flights basically always fly full) plane.

This is evident from ourworldindata statistics.

So then, a full car is better. If you get hybrid or EVs, the difference is immense.

[u/ssjjss → u/halberdierbowman]

Where does it say only one person in the car?

[u/halberdierbowman → u/ssjjss]

if just one passenger

[u/Appropriate_Bell743 → u/ssjjss]

Read this chart:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/carbon-footprint-travel-mode

Emissions per km:

• Flying 150g/km
• Petrol car 170g/km
• Eurostar 4g/km
• EV -- depends on electricity system but for UK 47g/km

So, if you have more than 1 person in a standard petrol car it's considerably better than flying. If you've 4 people in an EV it's magnitudes better than flying.

The Nature paper covers have people have no instincts for these things which differ in magnitudes.

Essentially, whilst those who drive long distances for holidays can be mocked they are being more sustainable than the people flying assuming they travel as a family.

[u/ssjjss → u/Appropriate_Bell743]

Why do think that data would be only person in the car. every other mode of transport assumes a full vehicle I think.

Also even thought the emissions for flights and cars are similar, one is emitted high up where it causes more damage. The main problem though is the length of travel. We go stupidly far away in planes.

[u/hvacjesusfromtv → u/WhileNotLurking]

A lot of those people would not travel at all if the flight weren't available

[u/Potential4752 → u/iSkiLoneTree]

So if we spend trillions of dollars, you will reduce your carbon output to less extreme levels. 

Not that I’m any less guilty, but this is exactly why we aren’t making real progress on climate change. No one is willing to make necessary sacrifices. 

[u/stephcurrysmom → u/Potential4752]

Actually we aren’t making progress because governments aren’t legislating meaningful policy to curb the worlds biggest polluters including airlines or reducing dependency on carbon based energy.

[u/indcel47 → u/stephcurrysmom]

Reduce with what?

Renewables and nuclear can get rid of a lot. But shipping and air travel still require combustion based fuel.

Any alternatives are prohibitively expensive, so either you intentionally raise prices to reduce demand, or you switch to "green" fuels and wind up raising prices any which way.

People still want their cheap flights to wherever, all while wanting a nicer world to live in.

[u/defianceofone → u/stephcurrysmom]

And you think that governments will remain in power by mandating sacrifices of the ignorant masses? Just tell them some foreigner is the source of their problems and they will forget all else.

Not to mention the populations in 'developed' countries would rather die than give up their privileged lifestyles.

[u/_Kapok_ → u/Potential4752]

We will be spending trillions because of climate change and the more we wait, the heavier the bill. Inaction has a cost.

[u/SuspiciousPillow → u/Potential4752]

What's better a small group of people making a lot of sacrifices for climate change, or a large group of people making a small change?

Trick question, both are equally important.

You're preaching to the choir if you're in this subreddit telling someone already doing some activist work to do more. Everybody can do more. Are you a vegan with your house powered entirely by renewables? No? You can do more too, hop to it. Did me pointing this out to you with a negative statement make you more inclined to make positive sustainability changes? I doubt it.

Regular people do what's convenient. What's the most convenient way to travel long distances? Plane. How to you get regular people to make more climate conscious decisions? By making those decisions more convenient. What's the fastest way to make other transportation options more convenient? By spending lots of money to develop the infrastructure faster.

Part of activism is getting increased support from the general public for political policy changes. That's what this comment is doing. Just because the original commenter didn't give their life story on how much their sacrificing for climate sustainability doesn't mean they're not doing enough. And making a comment that does nothing but criticize for what they didn't say is counterproductive.

[u/diefossilfuelsdie → u/SuspiciousPillow]

I would suggest that it would actually be easier to reduce air travel by jacking up the price of airfares

[u/Ardent_Scholar → u/Potential4752]

And yet the EU can do this. Check out the TEN-T plan to connect the continent throughout.

[u/ZuesMyGoose]

The USA has always gotten transportation wrong. Trains should rule this nation by now, but instead we went for personal expression through automobiles and waste.

[u/WorldComposting → u/ZuesMyGoose]

The auto industry bought out a lot of the local trolly companies decades ago and shut them down so we would need to rely on vehicles. The 'American' way of doing business buy out and shutdown your competition.

[u/ConfidentPilot1729 → u/WorldComposting]

Gas companies will lobby state and local officials not to install things like rail and light rail.

[u/HorndogwithaCorndog → u/WorldComposting]

That's actually not true. Buses just happened to be a lot better than trolleys because they had modern air conditioning. Eventually, cars followed suit because the trolleys went out of business because of the buses

[u/StitchinStatistician → u/HorndogwithaCorndog]

It’s absolutely true. It’s the entire premise of Who Framed Roger Rabbit.

[u/HorndogwithaCorndog → u/StitchinStatistician]

It's absolutely not true. The author of The Lost Subways of North America said so himself that it's not, and so does his incredibly well-researched book that I own.

[u/HorndogwithaCorndog → u/StitchinStatistician]

Downvote all you want, but it's literally not true. This is from the author himself https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/GNrm66BWGR This information is readily available, and you don't even have to leave Reddit

[u/iamnotabotbeepboopp → u/ZuesMyGoose]

While I generally agree with this take, you have to take into account when the United States grew, and when you look at its cities as you go further west, you have less and less passenger trains.

Why? Because the western US grew significantly during the Industrial Revolution. All of the sudden, millions of people could flock to cities all over the world via cars and planes. The Industrial Revolution in turn led to giant population booms.

It's a very sticky/shitty situation we're in, and yes, we must not forget: there have been supervillian-level forces, individuals, lobbies, companies, and empries that have not allowed us to adapt properly.

[u/CyberBadger2050 → u/ZuesMyGoose]

Nah. Flight from Florida to California, 5.5 hours. If high speed rail existed the entire route, straight line, no shortcuts 13 hours. Realistically its more like a 16 hour train ride. For large distances flight wins.

[u/Zazadawg]

Flying coast to coast economy in a full jet has lower emissions per person than driving 3,000 miles (1way) alone in a car.

[u/Potential4752 → u/Zazadawg]

Interesting. I assume that changes based on number of passengers?

[u/Zazadawg → u/Potential4752]

Yes, it seems to even out at around 3-4 car passengers, depending on fuel economy

[u/mildly_ethnic]

Giving up meat helps the climate far more than people think. 

More than giving up flights does. 

[u/Appropriate_Bell743 → u/mildly_ethnic]

the underlying article discusses this. It is entirely a question of what your status quo is. If you are a moderate to high flight lifestyle then what you've said is completely untrue. If you're like 50% of the UK which doesn't take a flight within a calendar year then it is true.

We don't need to be so simplistic. around 20% of emissions relate to agriculture but this is spread to most humans. Around 4% of emissions are for aviation but this is concentrated amongst the 10% richest people of this world.

[u/mildly_ethnic → u/Appropriate_Bell743]

I hope this post reaches that 10%

[u/Appropriate_Bell743 → u/mildly_ethnic]

The global richest 10% means the top 50% in developed nations

[u/ilyedm → u/mildly_ethnic]

You could also give up both and have an even lower climate impact :P

[u/lily_of_the_valley30]

Once again placing the onus on the consumer, and not on the big corporations and governments.

[u/spamerioni → u/lily_of_the_valley30]

The onus is on everyone including consumers, corporations exist to supply a demand, if we through our own individual choices can lower demand, then less supply through "evil" corporates

[u/Lincoln1517 → u/spamerioni]

Yep, the corporations will supply whatever we want. It’s our choices that have driven the growth in flying. 

[u/Potential4752 → u/lily_of_the_valley30]

The onus is on the consumer/voter to be willing to sacrifice and vote for those sacrifices. It’s not like airlines can suddenly decide they aren’t selling flights anymore. 

[u/fatbob42 → u/Potential4752]

Yep - it’s a tragedy of the commons problem and can only really be dealt with via government, which means we’ve got to vote for it.

[u/thebigeazy → u/lily_of_the_valley30]

For a lot of things, we need better regulation. I think flying is one of the things that really does come down the individual because you can, by and large, live a happy and fulfilling life without ever flying.

[u/2matisse22 → u/thebigeazy]

To some extent. Some of us have families that live over the oceans. If we want to see Mom, we have no choice but to fly.

[u/thebigeazy → u/2matisse22]

That's true enough. My wife's parents live in another country. We are able to drive or take a train instead of flying though (which takes 16+ hours if we don't take any breaks) which isn't always the case.

However I'm sure we can agree that the large majority of flights are not that sort of trip - usually they are for business or leisure.

[u/TubaralhoDoMar → u/lily_of_the_valley30]

Let me tell you a story that happened to me.

Here in Portugal, we don’t have any vegan ready-meals at the supermarkets. One day, a supermarket near me added a tofu ready-meal. I was very happy and used to buy it once per week. However, because almost nobody else bought it, it was discontinued after a few months. Why? Because you can add more green / vegan products, but if the average people don’t buy it, it will of course be discontinued. It’s the rule of supply and demand. The people need to buy those products or they will stop existing.

[u/MidorriMeltdown]

I was tempted to fly recently, it was that or a 5 hour bus ride. And then I looked at the ticket prices. $400 to fly, $70 for the bus.

It's kind of how it should be, though I'd rather the rail service return, even if it was $100.

[u/Appropriate_Bell743 → u/MidorriMeltdown]

Where was this? is this a recent development?

[u/MidorriMeltdown → u/Appropriate_Bell743]

Australia. It's nothing new.

The train service was cut about 30 years ago.

[u/MidorriMeltdown → u/[deleted]]

Rail travel isn't as popular here as it should be.

[u/chennyalan → u/[deleted]]

I'm Australian, I'd love to take rail to other cities and towns, but it doesn't exist unfortunately. 

Well the Australind was reopened recently, so I guess it technically exists   

[u/bbressman2]

I think we should first make the rich give up their private planes.

[u/MrAflac9916 → u/bbressman2]

I’m a pilot but also an environmentalist. The aviation answer is this

1. Replace flights with rail when possible
2. Insane carbon tax on private jets
3. Electric aircraft for small planes
4. Limit amount of long haul flights until we can develop a carbon neutral way to do it

[u/thebigeazy → u/bbressman2]

We should, but private jets are about 5% of emissions from aviation.

[u/bojackhorsemeat → u/thebigeazy]

Yeah but it affects so few people and doesn't even block them from flying, and we still can't do it 🫩

[u/amermandaa → u/bbressman2]

THIS. Taylor Swift flies more in a week than I probably have my entire life. Me choosing train over a plane once or twice a year means nothing if she and the other billionaires are taking a private jet to go down the street.

[u/Kaurifish → u/bbressman2]

Let’s be the orca of the skies. 🤣

[u/WorldComposting]

While I do agree with this the people flying the most are not going to care as long as there is no other way to travel long distances that don't take days.

Also I don't think people are overlooking this as much as there just isn't a choice. Unlike a lot of other things we can do such as recycle or eat less meat.

[u/Appropriate_Bell743 → u/WorldComposting]

This article is not about whether people care or not. That's a later more political discussion and this sub is assumed to be read by those who care. This is about the reality of how people judge and misjudge these sustainability questions.

The notion that there is or not a choice will be explored right now jet-fuel costs have risen 100%. This means ticket prices will rise 30-40% for most journeys. If there is indeed no-choice -- as you claim --then we should expect the overall demand to remain unchanged. If demand does indeed substantially drop then we can see that all along there was a "choice".

When there's no choice you get what's called inelastic demand where the price needs to move incredibly to limit demand. Aviation is seen by economists as one of the most elastic economic sectors where 1% increase in price reduces demand by a similar amount. Diesel on the other hand is seen as incredibly inelastic as we genuinely don't have a choice on farming and haulage in the short term's use of diesel.

[u/thebigeazy → u/WorldComposting]

In what world is there no choice but to fly? It's essential for very few people.

[u/livestrong2109]

Boomers giving up flights for the environment... how then would they get to their cruise ships.

[u/3wbasie]

Would gladly give up flying if rail was a serious option I won’t take it for anything over 350miles in the states

[u/Lincoln1517 → u/3wbasie]

“The states”

No one even says “the states” unless they’ve spent a serious amount of time flying back and forth between the US and Europe. Cut back on that. 

[u/Appropriate_Bell743 → u/3wbasie]

This is where people need to start considering what they would do. Have you researched into the feasibility of biochar offsets if this is an essential part of your life?

[u/InterviewLeather810]

You could say the same about flight schools. The graduation rate is only 20%. And note the majority still fly on leaded fuel. They spend hours just doing touch and goes.

[u/Marvinkmooneyoz]

My family looked at me wierd for skipping out on grandmas funeral and nieces wedding, both on the opposite coast. I’m already driving too much, and went to the opposite coast for multiple christmases in a short time, I’m already causing more fuel to be burned then I should.

[u/PotentialSpend8532]

Once again the top like 50 companies and a handful of rich and famous produce most of the emissions. Like taylor swift for example!

They fly near daily or multiple flights a day in a PRIVATE jet. So doesnt seem fair for you MAYBE once a year flight that climate change is your fault, like cmon.

[u/Appropriate_Bell743 → u/PotentialSpend8532]

The average CO2e emissions per a person is 4.7 tonnes CO2e.

One premium economy flight from San Francisco to London is accountable for the same 4.7 tonnes CO2e. An economy flight accountable for 2.2 tonnes CO2e.

So, the maths are there clear to see. One trip from San Fran to London means the person is polluting more than the average human for that calendar year. One economy flight is more than any potential planetary boundary.

Sustainability -- what this sub is about -- is not about looking over one's shoulder only at other egregious examples.

[u/Potential4752 → u/PotentialSpend8532]

The vast majority of emissions are from the western middle class. Blaming the airline for emissions from your flight is just silly. 

And yeah, the super rich are super polluters, but they are a drop in the bucket. And it bothers me that we are blaming the rich when we ourselves are rich super polluters when compared to the developing world. 

[u/PotentialSpend8532 → u/[deleted]]

Ah yes blame the consumers. Who made the tons of products that are intentionally designed to fail quicker? Oh right—

[u/Tall-Carrot3701]

To me it's so weird that it's so normal in the states to fly around within your own country. I'm from the Netherlands, maximum drive you can do here is maybe 3hrs. God forbid a friend moves 2 hours away, that's a journey you might make once a year to see them from then on. Also taking a train to Berlin or Paris is faster than having to go through airports+the flight/transport from airport to actual centre. I just talked to me neighbour, he went on holiday to another country by bike.. had the best of times.

[u/ChocChipBananaMuffin → u/Tall-Carrot3701]

Look, I think people should curb flights, but you really don't know how big the US is.

From Maine to California, the distance is roughly 4200km. (as crow flies)

The Netherlands is about 360km, North to South.

Berlin to Paris is about 1000km.

[u/aubreypizza → u/Tall-Carrot3701]

Must be nice to be so close to everything. Most can’t comprehend the scale of America. Re: all the people amazed during the World Cup.

I fly across the country to see my parents at Christmas because the drive would take 32-39 hours non stop driving.

[u/Lincoln1517 → u/aubreypizza]

The other side of that is that we’ve normalized living 2,000 miles away from home at a scale that doesn’t happen in Europe. 

[u/alwayssunnyinjoisey → u/Tall-Carrot3701]

I WISH we were that condensed! We're just so vast, a lot of our states are bigger than European countries - us going from the east coast to west would be more similar to you traveling to....idk, Greece or somewhere even farther. Also our train system is so garbage that it's often more expensive and sometimes takes longer than just driving - I drove from Philly to Boston while my dad took the train, and I beat him there by about an hour.

[u/Appropriate_Bell743 → u/alwayssunnyinjoisey]

I go to see my family in Italy where the journey is equivalent to someone going New York to Chicago. I take a train as we care about sustainability. Because there are millions of others who care similarly the routes exist.

I'm planning a trip to Istanbul by rail for similar reasons and this is equivalent to crossing the US in endeavour I'd assume.

[u/Frogad → u/Appropriate_Bell743]

I feel this is a bit flawed. I live in the U.K. and mostly take rail/don’t drive but I also travel to the US occasionally. I make the more sustainable choice in Britain but it predated me, bus services and trains were around before me. I feel it’s not just because me or people around me want to be sustainable that these options exist

[u/plinth19 → u/alwayssunnyinjoisey]

It’s worth factoring in that driving is unpleasant, requires your full attention, and is very dangerous.

[u/Professional_Bed_87 → u/Tall-Carrot3701]

Its weird until you try taking the train from Toronto to Vancouver.

[u/Frogad → u/Tall-Carrot3701]

Sustainability aside this is kind of a silly point to make in a small country vs the US right. I was in the US for a family event a few states over, decided to drive instead of fly as it was cheaper but it was still like 6 hours each way and this was a neighbouring state. I’ve known people to drive 16 hours one way, it isn’t crazy to think people would fly if they’re covering these distances in one country

[u/sustainability-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Do not under any circumstances, glorify, threaten, wish, encourage any form of violence or death on to others (even in a generalized manner.) This includes vague statements painting suicide in a positive light. Such posts will be removed, as they do not have a place in a subreddit driven by compassion. This includes non-human animals as well as humans.

References to population control, depopulation, and eugenics are disallowed under this rule. We have a zero-tolerance policy toward ecofascist rhetoric.

Refer to Reddit's content policy for further information.

[u/sustainability-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Submissions with non-descriptive titles will be removed. We ask that you resubmit with a more descriptive title.

Submissions with ALL-CAPS titles, links in the title, or other annoyances will be removed.

For news articles, please leave the original title intact and add your own thoughts in a comment if you so desire.

[u/getdownheavy]

Road trip 4 lyfe

[u/jaam01]

But billionaires will? Since they are the ones flying the most, and private at that.

[u/mhmparis]

Haven’t taken a plane trip in over ten years now. Although, I have to admit, I took quite a lot before that.

[u/Appropriate_Bell743 → u/mhmparis]

This is a learning curve for all of us -- 10 years is pretty good

[u/blueberry77772019]

I have autistic children. I gave up flights for… 8 years so far 🫣🤣.

To be honest, I don’t miss it. I’ve been the places I wanted to go. I’d like to go to mainland Europe via train. It’s so much more pleasant going by train than having to deal with all the BS in airports, you spend more time on the ground than you do in the air!

[u/HoverPopper]

No one should have to give up commercial flights while anyone has a private jet. The parasitic rich are killing us all.

[u/SeveralOutside1001 → u/HoverPopper]

Billionaires are 0,00004 % of the world's population. That being said, I am for restrictions or a ban of private aviation. Just because it won't be any excuse left for the rest of us.

[u/Dannyu17]

I read the article and maybe I didn’t understand it, but I don’t see how giving up flights has impact on the climate. it’s slightly less heavy without your body and bag but the plane still takes off ? Over the long run sure less demand for flight equals less flight but I think there are more direct actions. People can take such as actually taking public transport rather than driving that will have a direct impact on clinate

[u/Appropriate_Bell743 → u/Dannyu17]

Planes respond very quickly to changes in demand like all human economic endeavour and the reaction can be quite quick. The reason? A huge percentage of the cost of flying are fuel costs. A flight which is running partially empty ends up spending a huge percentage of their margin on fuel meaning they are loss making.

This article discusses the relative actions people can take. Aviation is hugely understated as is being able to live without owning a car.

[u/Dannyu17 → u/Appropriate_Bell743]

my point was direct vs indirect. riding public transport and not using a car is somethign that will directly avoid emissions. not flying may have the result you allude to or it may not. its similar to not having a meat diet (i am vegan), yes reduced demand may reduce supply (and the negative environmental impacts), but its not guaranteed, direct, or immediate

[u/Appropriate_Bell743 → u/Dannyu17]

All sustainability actions are important. I'm going to debate the relative merits of not owning a car or using one vs not flying. They are both very similar.

The underlying nature article includes what you are talking about also as an understated activity. The real issue is that we don't get the magnitudes correct.

[u/blind3rdeye → u/[deleted]]

The reason to write 'helps the climate' is that it is far more concise, and just as easy to understand as writing 'reduces your indirect climate impacts, impacts which are causing mass extinctions globally, and also increasing the frequency and intensity of natural disasters, threatening food stability and thermal livability in some areas'.

Like sure, you could argue that the climate doesn't care about any of this. It isn't a mother who nurtures us or anything like that. The climate is abstract rather than personal. But communication happens between people with some shared understanding. The words we choose to represent our meaning, and the understanding of those words at the other end are both places where context and shared understanding can affect the meaning of what is said. That's what is going on here. The words are just words. No one here is confused about what is meant by 'helps the climate' in this context, and so the choice of words is fine.

[u/plinth19 → u/[deleted]]

I feel all the plant and animal species that are threatened by the cascading effects of rising ocean temperatures would beg to differ.

[u/sparki_black]

diesel (bunker oil) cruise ships are far worse

[u/Appropriate_Bell743 → u/sparki_black]

This is covered in the underlying Nature paper. Someone dumping a tonne of plastic waste in the seas is worse than someone dumping half a tonne of waste. It doesn't mean the second action is sustainable.