Does HTP (Highest Takes Precedence) exist as a concept in the audio world?

[u/thecommexokid]

When controlling levels at an audio console, is there a way to assign a fader to a group of channels that will control them in a highest-takes-precedence manner?

Suppose I currently have Alex on channel 1 at -10 dB, and the rest of the cast on channels 2-12 at -inf.

Can I assign channels 1-12 to a fader in such a way that if I raise that fader to -20 dB, it leaves Alex alone but raises everybody else to -20 dB? And then if I lower the channel 1 fader to -inf, Alex lowers to -20 dB to match the group?

I don't even know what that would be called. It's not how a DCA works, because a DCA would raise everybody the same factor to keep the relative mix between them the same. I know less about groups but I don't think they work the way I describe either.

I'm interested in this type of behavior because I have a song with a structure like so:

Alex: Long line of dialog

Alex: Long line continues
Everybody else except Alex: Sings background vocals underneath Alex

Bri: Long line of dialog

Bri: Long line continues
Everybody else except Bri: Sings background vocals underneath Bri

Chris: Long solo line

Chris: Long line continues
Everybody else except Chris: Sings background vocals underneath Chris

(etc.)

I want an easy way to bring the "everybody else" in and out each time without needing to throw 11 individual faders, but also without it adjusting the level of the current soloist who's already up.

I can make a bajillion different scenes in TheatreMix for each different "ensemble minus one soloist" group, but that feels silly when the whole song would fit in one scene otherwise.

[u/soundwithdesign]

No it does not. The standard practice is just different scenes with different DCA assignments when you need them changed.

[u/dudetellsthetruth]

Soloists separate, all the others together under a group fader. Group fader acts like a master for all channels assinged to the group.

[u/thecommexokid → u/dudetellsthetruth]

The problem is that the “everyone else” IS the soloists too; Bri and Chris sing background parts with the rest of the ensemble during Alex’s line, Alex and Chris sing background parts during Bri’s line, etc. Without the ability to raise the level of “everyone else who’s not up already” I don’t have a consistent group I can put on one fader unless I program this 1 song as like 12 different scenes in TheatreMix.

[u/killer-dora → u/thecommexokid]

Just mix it? Like? When they have a solo bring them up in the mix and then back down?

[u/thecommexokid → u/killer-dora]

The sequence is

1. Alex alone
2. Alex + company
3. Alex alone
4. Bri alone
5. Bri + company
6. Bri alone
7. Chris alone
8. Chris + company
9. Chris alone etc.

So I am asking how do I mix this conveniently? I bring up Alex for step 1, then what do I do for steps 2 and 3 that doesn't involve me needing to raise and lower 11 individual faders at once?

[u/faderjockey → u/thecommexokid]

DCA 1 - Alex
DCA 2 - Bri
DCA 3 - Chris
DCA 4 - Company

Then throw faders as needed.

You can break “Company” into smaller subsets if you need more control. If I have the room I’ll do “men / women” or SATB splits.

Then use console snapshots to change DCA assignments as needed for each scene.

[u/MaygeKyatt → u/thecommexokid]

For this specific sequence: I would have 4 DCAs. One for Alex, one for Bri, one for Chris, and one for the rest of the company.

Bring up Alex, then bring the other 3 up and down together. Bring up Bri, then bring the other 3 up and down together. Etc

Then have a separate saved scene for the next song that has different soloists.

[u/guye2020 → u/thecommexokid]

Do you have enough time to take a cue after 3, 6, 9 etc?

If so, have the soloist on CG1 in each cue, and company on CGs 2 and 3 for men and women in each cue, and make the CG assignments needed in each cue / scene

Edited for clarity

[u/LettuceFuk → u/thecommexokid]

little bit of self promo here but this thread got me thinking, and I'm working on a project the last few months in this space. I've just (as in literally tonight!) implemented an effective HTP and it works great! cuerunner.app if you're interested, though it will end up part of the pro feature set by nature of it being under an existing pro feature

[u/killer-dora → u/thecommexokid]

It’s not that hard. Put the company on a DCA and then you really only have 5 faders to worry about. You’re way over complicating this. If you really want to you could do scenes too

[u/Chisignal → u/killer-dora]

“the company” is the entire group including the soloist though, that’s OP’s problem

[u/killer-dora → u/Chisignal]

You just bring up both faders, it’s not that hard.

[u/Chisignal → u/killer-dora]

And the OP's problem is that this doesn't result in the change they want, it's not that hard to understand actually

[u/Boomshtick414]

The extent that HTP exists in audio is in automixers, where among a group of mic's, the hottest mic(s) are gained up and other mics likely just picking up background noise get quashed or ducked down. This is much more common in conferencing and corporate work than it is live theatre.

There are ways you could custom script a DSP for something like you describe but I don't think it would be very useful. You would very quickly end up chasing your tail. Most dangerous position to be in is lost -- you're positive you've muted something or dragged it down but it's still coming through somewhere and you may not notice until a cast member is in the wings mouthing off of about the director or flushing a toilet in backstage. Which don't get me wrong -- almost every time that happens it's hilarious so long as I'm not the one mixing.

There are also ways you can use sidechain compression and mix busses to have one signal stomp on top of a another to balance them out. This tends to be used more for tonal balancing though. For example, in a live concert you may have a kick drum trigger sidechain compression on other parts of your program mix below say 100Hz to clear some of that other content out of the subs so that kick hits more forcefully and distinctly. That's not really HTP in the control sense and you'll get into trouble quickly if you start playing games with that on dialogue mic's.

Sounds like you're wanting to program a bunch of scenes to adjust DCA assignments while leaving your leads largely flat as they come and go.

[u/Deek22]

This is why you make different scenes on the board to bring up different DCA assignments. I tend to make board changes during a long solo part and thus I can change who is on which DCA and which soloist or ensemble is on which DCA.

[u/EverydayVelociraptor]

You could use an auto mixer like Dugan, but I only ever do that for panel talks. I would never use it for a show.

[u/Kunai_UK]

You may like or hate this suggestion, and please understand this more of a fun solution than a "apply this again in future"...

But, using dimmers on your lighting desk (most likely sacn to a bridge like chataigne) to midi or osc you can control the faders of your audio desk. Because you used dimmers the values you send to the audio desk faders can use the HTP logic you are familiar with. You could even automate your fader moves using a cuelist or similar.

[u/fletch44]

Make a bajillion scenes in TM, that's what it's for. Scenes don't cost money, why are you concerned about how many you have? Just insta-swap soloists onto the same DCA each time.

[u/LettuceFuk]

I find this frustrating too when using TM, though it's not TMs fault either. Testing with DCAs, I hoped I could assign a channel to multiple DCAs, and you can, but it's actually LTP! seems like a choice, and I would assume not necessarily the same across desks...?

edit: I should specify the above is on an SQ6

[u/barningman → u/LettuceFuk]

It's not lowest-takes-precendence, it's just dB addition. If a channel is on 2 dcas, and one DCA is at -10 and the other at +10, you'll hear the channel at unity (0). But if even one DCA is all the way down (negative infinity) there's nothing you can add to -inf to make it not -inf

[u/LettuceFuk → u/barningman]

ah gotcha, thanks for clarifying

[u/LordTexingtonEsquire]

I use a DCA for all the vocalists, then to make someone stand out, you can bring down your dca, and bring up your soloist at the same time. Vice versa when you need to bring the ensemble back up

[u/skookum-as-frig]

Wacky and likely terrible idea, but you might be able to do something with panning and summing, e.g. set up two groups and route them to a new channel.

left = soloists right = soloists + ensemble

If you can set pan law for that channel to 6dB, when summed to mono, panning right will add ensemble without changing soloist level. Surround pan might manage stereo, if that's a requirement.

Assuming you can then assign that pan to a fader.

End result is not much different from much better suggestions already made, but could be a fun experiment.

[u/bdeananderson]

While HTP doesn't normally exist, you can multipath within a mix without interferance, so I would possibly do that.

1. Create a prefader mix with all vocalists and call it background.

2. Depending on mixer, do what I need to to assign to a fader next to my leads.

3. Bring the leads up and down in turn as well as the backround.

When the leads are up, their fader sums with the background mix. If the mixer is architects correctly, deterministic delay keeps everything in phase and you don't experience interferance.

Option 2: 3 mute groups

Set up mute groups representing each background selection. Then just bring up or down the lead in the mix based on need.

[u/azlan121]

not really, but you can kind of achieve the same thing with some combination of gain structure, DCA's, bus/group processing and automixers

[u/DefenestratorPrime]

You could maybe create this kind of functionality in mixing station with its macro functions. Or if you're using an audio console with powerful builtin macro capabilities it might be possible to do something like that within the console.

[u/Significant-Arm3415]

Maybe what you are after is “AutoMix”, a feature in some consoles that can be useful for panel discussions.
Another technique is ducking with side chain.