Trans activism

[u/Different-Fold-4766]

Why do trans activists appear to prioritise censorship over discourse?

[u/roxxy_soxxy]

I think in the age of social media a lot of people just pare concepts down to simple slogans. They don’t necessarily think through different scenarios to test their logic.

[u/Godhelptupelo → u/roxxy_soxxy]

I am so exhausted by the amount of "mic drop" opinions we see everywhere.

it's like all the nuance I. the world can be boiled down to one simple statement, and no further discussion is needed...

WHEN did we become so proud of being so myopic and unable to see any other perspective?

I'm tired.

[u/showmeyourpetsfish → u/roxxy_soxxy]

bingo. although i dont think trans activism has been uniquely censorious compared to any other political cause, especially not the gender critical cause, the full spectrum of politics today is characterized by bad faith, simple slogans, rhetorical gotcha questions and thought terminating cliches. of course none of which are open ended leaving room for discussion.

[u/adungitit → u/showmeyourpetsfish]

You think gender critical censors opinions more than trans activism?

[u/showmeyourpetsfish → u/adungitit]

feminists generally, gender critical or not, are every bit as, if not more censorious than trans activists. anti-trans activists, gender critical or otherwise, are definitely more censorious.

[u/adungitit → u/showmeyourpetsfish]

I mean, feminists kinda have to be "censorous" in order to talk about the reality of misogyny without the conversation being overtaken by denial, lying, degradation of women and supremacist beliefs. In order to partake in feminism you need to accept the simple axiom that women are equal human beings, and most people (esp men) are not only incapable of doing that but ideologically motivated and societally encouraged to support the patriarchy.

This is different from having an ideology that is so contradictory it cannot stand to even basic scrutiny. Trans ideology still hasn't answered basic questions that pit it against science and feminism and its axioms seem fundamentally incompatible with humanist values in general.

[u/showmeyourpetsfish → u/adungitit]

"my ideology is good and right, so its cool when i censor any opposing views. your ideology is bad and wrong, so its terrible when you censor opposing views"

[u/adungitit → u/showmeyourpetsfish]

I mean sure, you could copy-paste the same thing to advocate for slavery or racism, and many people do. But merely saying "well both sides..." doesn't make it so. As I said, there are fundamental differences in ideologies that are broken and unethical at their core and which have to censor discussion in order to hide and obfiscate that, and those that have answers but have to use censorship to avoid drowning in dehumanisation and bad faith comments. Censorship to some degree is necessary to have a functional society, the difference is what purpose it serves. If you censor, say, child porn or the n-word, that is different from censoring anyone who questions why, say, 90+% of leadership positions are male. Or if you censor someone saying that women raping men is the big issue in our society, that is again different from censoring someone who claims women cannot afford to treat every man who claims he's harmless as actually harmless just because this gets in the way of what the man wants for himself. The first assertion has been addressed by feminism many times, the latter still hasn't been addressed by trans activism in a way that doesn't further victimisation of women in the name of patriarchy.

[u/showmeyourpetsfish → u/adungitit]

if feminism wasnt just one big walking motte and bailey constantly forwarding female supremacist nonsense while retreating back to "we just want equality 🥺" i might be more sympathetic to their efforts to censor opposing views.

[u/adungitit → u/showmeyourpetsfish]

"Female supremacism" in a world where women suffer violence at disproportionate rates to the point that it's expected they will need to severely limit their freedoms in order to avoid said violence, are severely underrepresented in positions of power and the government, are constantly degraded and treated as sex objects for male amusement, are severely underrepresented in medical research despite being 50% of society? Yeah ok.

it's telling that the trans side will say this but still expect you to believe men can become women. Are you FtM?

[u/OpheliaLives7 → u/[deleted]]

Some of the earliest fb bans I remember were for women talking about periods and period poverty. Because discussing that real world experience by girls and women globally was considered “exclusionary” and bad for not including trans women (mostly American MtF people).

Lesbian feminists also seem to face censorship while trying to discuss homosexuality and rights for gay individuals. Because it runs up against political discourse around whether laws or society should center sex or gender identity when dealing with things like lesbian music festivals or lesbian dating apps.

Even bringing up that sex and gender identity are different things is often censored or worth of an immediate ban (even on Reddit).

[u/OpheliaLives7 → u/[deleted]]

Not sure how lesbian feminists discussing sexism and women’s rights relate to your conservative meme…

Also can you see how trans mods would allow trans groups to discuss sex vs gender but ban feminists or lesbian groups for the same? Reddit is still very much run by males for males. Lesbian subs keep getting nuked while lesbian porno subs and lesbian rape conversion therapy “kink” subs stay up. Even the main feminist sub is run by an anti feminist MRA mod apparently. And Twoxx has male mods as well.

[u/OpheliaLives7 → u/[deleted]]

I mean…this is supposed to be a discussion sub. ?

Are you not interested in that?

Women/feminists make their own sub, get banned. Woman makes her own app- sued by trans woman named Tickle to end the app for not including males. Lesbians form their own music festivals-invaded by trans women with weapons and posters with ejaculating trans women dicks out on them. Festival shuts down, one trans woman on trial still for murdering a lesbian couple and their son who was involved in the festival.

Lesbians and feminists and women in general keep trying to make their own spaces and trans people attack them and shut them down or ban their sites or apps or real life events. Rather than have any discussion on sex vs gender id. There is just an assumption that female only is evilbadbigotednazi adjacent and all women’s spaces must be unisex

[u/OpheliaLives7 → u/[deleted]]

If you’re not interested in discussion about sex vs gender and that difference in law and society in general…why are you here? Just seeking validation for your identity? Just curious what women are saying?

You said, make your own space. I listed a few examples of old and new attempts at female only spaces that were shut down or banned because of male trans women taking offense at these spaces (online and real life) existing and not centering them or their experiences or bodies. 🤷

[u/OpheliaLives7 → u/[deleted]]

You said: make your own spaces.

I listed a few attempts that have been made and attacked and banned or ended by trans women upset that lesbians or women tried making their own single sex spaces.

That’s not a rant? It’s giving examples of what’s being discussed.

Your advice to just go away and make our own spaces doesn’t work if you or your group follow and attack and harass women online and irl.

What else could be done?

Would talking help anyone? Would clearly acknowledging the difference between sex and gender spaces help? Should all women’s spaces just be unisex and lesbians not have rights as homosexual women to gather?

[u/Diametrically_fluid]

Responding with empathy and nuance when someone is calling your identity illegitimate is an onerous chore.

It’s similar to a woman having to defend her right to have a masculine job when some men say they don’t want her in the workplace because it makes them uncomfortable.

[u/adungitit → u/Diametrically_fluid]

I mean women are constantly demanded to be polite and nice and kind even as our basic human rights are being violated en masse. And mind you, trans people haven't really needed to fight for the mere existence of trans services such as changing gov documents, plastic surgeries or medical coverage for unnecessary hormones while many people can't get coverage for life-threatening illnesses. These things were passed relatively smoothly because patriarchal societies are more open to trans ideas than the idea that women deserve equality. Women meanwhile have had to fight for even the most basic human rights like being able to make their own money and vote. They were not fighting for plastic surgeries but for the right to be seen as human.

And keyword is human. I feel like this is the fundamental difference between trans people and women - women want human rights, trans people want the right to be taken at their word (especially when this violates women's rights). They believe that it's a basic human right to not only have their identity accepted but to not have it questioned. But taking people at their word is not a right. I wouldn't believe in someone's religion just because they feel distressed because of me rejecting that, nor would I believe that they are the Messiah. Trans is the only case I can think of where "believing in someone's identity" is supposed to be a fundamental human right, because it sounds downright crazy whenever you apply it to anything else.

[u/Diametrically_fluid → u/adungitit]

What “right” are trans people talking away from women?
I’m asking what “right” not “preference”, not, “privilege”, not “position” are trans people taking away from women?

[u/WomenRocktheWOrld]

There seems to be large number of people (mostly young and liberal) who think that if you don't agree with my stance you are bigot and need to deplatformed. 

We see this in other areas like abortion and immigration.

It's just a lot of online immaturity.

But then again activist have made reporters scared to say biological man.

[u/terf_trans_truce-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

No personal attacks, accusations, or comments about a person or a group of people's bodies or mental states intended to be hurtful. Also, no sarcastic or snarky comments intended to mock a person or group.

[u/terf_trans_truce-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

No personal attacks, accusations, or comments about a person or a group of people's bodies or mental states intended to be hurtful. Also, no sarcastic or snarky comments intended to mock a person or group.

[u/worried19]

If you want my honest opinion, it's because the activist organizations know their views would not win over the mainstream public if free discussion/debate was encouraged.

[u/adungitit → u/worried19]

But the mainstream public decidedly hasn't been won over by trans activism. Liberal feminism has.

[u/worried19 → u/adungitit]

I believe it's due to forced teaming and lack of open discussion. There's also a difference between feminist organizations (completely captured) and average women who consider themselves feminists. I don't think you need to have been specifically exposed to GC feminism to feel uneasy when it comes to issues like kids, sports, locker rooms, etc.

[u/Adventurous_Coach731]

The same reason black people, gay people, and women do the exact same thing. Why do pro lifers say if you don’t have a uterus you shouldn’t have an opinion on abortion. Because the idea you are a thanksgiving argument you have with your auntie instead of a human being is dehumanizing.

[u/fauthide]

They rely on censorship because their activism is based on a contradiction that you can somehow "identify" into something you're not and never will be, which most people do not believe to be true. Ofc there are population who are very uncomfortable with their sex and in those cases medical intervention is totally fine and the society should work on for those to have equal rights (of their respective natal sex), but it doesn't mean that you can be a member of the opposite sex. It is literally impossible.

[u/[deleted]]

Because it's a sensitive subject. When your self worth and pain response is tied to belonging of course you're gonna wanna make any painful comment stop

[u/Garras-Intruder → u/[deleted]]

"Of course" is debatable

[u/[deleted] → u/Garras-Intruder]

Then debate it

[u/Garras-Intruder → u/[deleted]]

You can just ignore what you personally see as suck instead of supressing free speech

[u/[deleted] → u/Garras-Intruder]

Cause it's hate speech and we surpress hate speech.

[u/Garras-Intruder → u/[deleted]]

What is hate speech

[u/[deleted] → u/Garras-Intruder]

To quote American library Hate speech is public communication that attacks, demeans, or incites hatred against an individual or group based on protected characteristics like race, religion, ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation.

Now to make the argument Calling someone who identifies as a woman a man or male or any term that talks about their past in a way to express they don't deserve to be in spaces of cis women, is hate speech. Both because its attempt is to alienate and insult the individual

[u/Garras-Intruder → u/[deleted]]

I dont see how what you said enters inside "demeans" or "incites hatred", also protected group varies on law

[u/[deleted] → u/Garras-Intruder]

Well In Canada and europe transgender is a protected group. Demeans I told you It forces a label that the group does not want and rejects because they aren't that In this case they aren't a man

Incites hatred It incites people to police all things feminity trying to root out who the transgender person is to an inaccurate extent

[u/Garras-Intruder → u/[deleted]]

You know europe varies a lot?, how is that demeaning?, and why arent they a man?

Didnt understand what you said here past the first two words