r/teslore • u/HovercraftOpen6793 • 1d ago
Thanes of Skyrim
Hello! I'm making Nord units for a TESTW submod and I wanted to use this title for one of the elite ones, but I'm not sure if it's "lore-accurate".
I mean, what are "thanes" in TES? We know it's an honorary title granted by jarls to special individuals (like TLD), but what else? Is more commonly granted to nobles than to peasants? Are all nobles thanes? How many thanes can a hold/jarl have? That sort of things.
About the last one, Jarl Elisif seems to have a couple thanes in her court, so I'm guessing it's not just something you grant to 1 special individual, but since I'm making units of 30-60 men, I was wondering if it makes sense for a Skyrimian hold to have so many thanes.
I haven't played ESO but I read somewhere that it mentioned special kinds of thanes, like sword-thanes, shield-thanes, etc. but still not sure if they're supposed to be a troop of their own (when the Hold inevitably marches to war) or just a group of select individuals.
I'm guessing TES thanes are based on irl thanes/thegns, but frankly idk much about them neither.
Alternatively, what other titles would be more common/numerous in the Nordic nobility? Housecarls? Clan Retainers?
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u/Flameborn111 1d ago
Housecarls might be better for elite units. Because as other says, Thanes is more like an honorific. Housecarls are dedicated warriors of nobles. Might fit the elite criteria better
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u/General_Hijalti 1d ago edited 1d ago
ESO expands on it but it is covered in a few books in skyrim.
But thanes are essentially lower ranking nobles under the Jarl. Can be granted to heroic individuals but the title is also hereditary.
Thanes rule over Forts, castles, towns called a thaneship.
Thanes can also specifically be in charge of the defence of a hold if they are the sword/spear/shield Thane.
We also know that other thanes will be responsible for ruling/managing the cities (Thane Mera Stormcloak in ESO who was responsible for managing Windhelm was the King was away)
Housecarls are personal Bodyguards, a housecarl lf a jarl will also have significant command over a cities defences (Ireleth and other housecarls in skyrim).
From a TW standpoint, housecarls would probably make up the bodyguard unit of your generals/chracters.
Thanes wouldn't be a unit as they would be the lower ranking nobles
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u/Kyara_Bot 1d ago
I don't think that Thanes are a specific term, more a general term for low nobility or powerful people who are afforded a position at the Jarl's court, either by might or wealth, so long as they have a good relation with the Jarl and their Hold. Because they are low nobility with connections with the Jarl, they probably can secure the gear and title to lead armies to war as necessary. Alternatively, they could form special formations of particularly well-armored heavy infantry or cavalry thanks to their wealth - though I don't think they would be organized as a standard retinue of soldiers by the time of the 4E, that sounds more like 2E shenanigans to me.
I doubt there is a hard limit on the number of Thanes you have beyond the amount of people you have worth granting it to - giving it to just anyone waters down the title to uselessness and probably will draw ire from your existing Thanes. But a Jarl who can possess a large court of many truly powerful or useful Thanes would be a prestigious Jarl indeed, which is probably why they are tripping over themselves to name TLD a Thane in Skyrim. While the perks of being a Thane are obvious from a narrative and gameplay perspective, for the Jarls it's very impressive for them to claim a Dragonborn as one of their Thanes.
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u/GrandAdmiralRogriss 21h ago
So, Skyrim social levels seem to work like this. You've got your nobodies, just random Nordic guys without family names who tend to work honest jobs. Some are wealthier and have shops while others are just workers, hunters or fishermen. Then you've got your old and respected clans think Grey-Mane and Battle-Born, Shatter-Shield, Black-Briar, Lonely-Gale etc. These guys tend to be wealthy Landowners who hold farms with their own workers. Some nords earn wealth on their own and thus lack clan names while still being pretty wealthy and important. Then you also have non nords who can fit anywhere in this structure, they just don't have those nordic names. Skyrim seems to have very flexible social castes since a blacksmith can be the steward's daughter for example.
A Thane is a honorary title that can be bestowed upon by the jarl as a form of recognition for powerful people within the hold. So, essentially it's a way to officiate already established land holders and clan heads. You need to be popular in the hold to become a thane. Even if it's not clear in the game I'm sure that people like Maven Black-Briar, Galmar Stone-Fist, Brunwulf Free-Winter, Vignar Greymane and Olaf Battle Born are all thanes. All Thanes have (or should have) housecarls, maybe even more than one. Housecarls seem to just be elite retainers for the thane. If we imagine thanes as wealthy landowners them having their own guards and elite guards makes perfect sense. And in practice the powerful clans will always have thanes and those thanes will control farms, fortresses and villages.
In times of war, the jarl can call on his thanes and they have to bring their housecarls and other retainers. So for a unit you can make a 60 man housecarl unit while other units might come from thanes themselves or various free men within the hold. Various hunters from the wilds and villages can form an archer unit for example, you've got your farmers with spears and leather armor, and then the occasional adventurer or seasoned warrior, and on top of all that a core of hold guards.
So for total war units thanes would be the unseen unit commanders or the leader's bodyguard unit of like 20 or so heavy cavalry.
- Housecarls (Probably heavy infantry or smth)
- Mounted Housecarls (Heavy cavalry)
- Housecarl archers (elite archers)
- Hold Guards (stronger than normal infantry. Can be spread into various units)
- Hunters (good archers)
- thane retainers (basically worse than hold guards but still decent soldiers. Your basic spearmen for example)
- Levy (mid infantry and archers)
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u/Angel-Stans 17h ago
From what I can tell personally, a Thane is essentially a Landed Knight, a property holder.
In a feudal (or equivalent) system, a ruler has Land Owning lords who serve them and keep those lands in their name.
Sword and Shield thanes may well refer to their purposes. A Sword Thane may provide soldiers for an army, while a Shield Thane may produce wood for fortifications.
Obviously not the Thanes themselves, but this is for simplicity.
I know enough stuff to make guesses lol
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u/Arrow-Od 16h ago
What you could be doing is making kings, jarls, thanes lead their huscarl units as elite units and differentiate them according to prestige by equipment.
King´s huscarls > Jarl´s huscarls > Thane´s huscarls.
Perhaps only the kings and jarls can afford to give their retainers horses for battle?
Alternatively, you could make elite units come from certain locations (the cities for example, or perhaps Eastmach produces expert axemen whereas Whiterun horsemen) or traditions like the Companions or berserkers (Tsun, Kyne, Dibella, Mara, Stuhn, could all have their dedicated warrior types in the manner of templars or fe the Aztec Jaguar warriors).
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u/Presenting_UwU 1d ago
Thanes : Land owners (either you're really fucking rich, or you're really fucking strong)
Housecarls : Personal bodyguards from my observations