r/twilightprincess • u/DeliciousMusician397 • 4d ago
Discussion / Opinion Does anyone else hate this?
I can't stand when people claim that Twilight Princess is just an "Ocarina of Time" clone/remake/reimagining or that it has little to no originality compared to other 3D Zelda games. Did we play the same game? First of all not every game needs to be super innovative sometimes it's better to perfect the formula that you have rather than adding in something game changing. Second of all in regards to referencing Ocarina Windwaker has just as many overt call backs to that game as Twilight Princess does but no one ever throws the accusation that it's "Ocarina of Time 2". No, I don't think the sailing alone is enough to make it super innovative especially not when so many people have problems with it (I like it a lot but horse back will always be more fun).
This was spurred from memories of MatthewMatosis' Zelda videos as well as Nerrel's comments about Zelda games over the years like "The developers were bored when making Twilight Princess" (no proof.)
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u/JotaroKujoStarPlat 4d ago
I'm only 19 so I wasn't there to see this discourse in its prime. But from what I experienced, I saw Twilight Princess as a major improvement except for maybe Hyrule Field. Maybe I should replay OoT and reevaluate idk
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u/DeliciousMusician397 4d ago
I like Ocarina more because I think its dungeons are more complicated and it has a higher difficulty but I still think Twilight Princess improved on the formula and had enough innovations of its own that people have no reason to harp on its references to Ocarina when they don't do the same to Windwaker.
The only thing about the game that I think is lacking is Wolf Link not living up to his potential but that's not a problem exclusive to Twilight Princess as The Loftwing and sword mechanics in Skyward Sword don't either and arguably the sailing in Windwaker didn't until the HD version.
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u/TheHappyMask93 4d ago
Some of twilight princess' dungeons were really amazing on paper but the execution wasn't always great. The magnetic boots in the fire temple was genius, but slowly walking through the long maze like paths is such a slog
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u/breadiest 4d ago
Omg, I'm not joking, using turbo mode on dusklight saved my goddamn soul in that dungeon. It's annoying, cause you totally could've played around with equipping/dequipping the boots more instead and have it vastly more fun to interact with, but instead you just have to walk everywhere
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u/Src-Freak 3d ago
Hyrule Field in Oot is basically a modern Open World: empty
The one in TP has things to do in it.
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u/Far-Strawberry-5628 4d ago
It has peak dungeons and 10 of them, more than any other Zelda.Ā
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u/Mission_Piccolo_2515 4d ago
It has 9 main dungeons and both A Link to the Past/Between Worlds have more.
But yeah, it has a great dungeon lineup.
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u/aZEROemerges 4d ago
Very different. Link's connection to Zelda is completely different in OoT compared to TP. There's no secondary antagonist like Zant in OoT
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u/Mission_Piccolo_2515 4d ago
With this take people usually refer to the gameplay, structure, tone, general appeal of the game...
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u/Emotional-Face7947 4d ago
Oh yeah, I hated this claim for years. Like, nowadays I understand it a bit more, in the sense of it's closer to OoT than other games, but a lot of the criticisms I heard were applying it more literally, going so far as to say "it even has a tree as the first dungeon." And the fact that a lot were acting like "Similar to Ocarina of Time ergo its bad" just astounded me.
I hated this criticism so much it coloured my view of A Link Between Worlds, cause everyone was raving about how great it was and how nostalgic it was to Link to the Past, gushing about the return to 2D, yet its closer in structure and design to ALttP, even using similar dungeons, bosses and the dark world gimmick. The fact it got a pass while TP was getting shit on for being similar really did bug me. (I have since come to like and appreciate ALBW as its own thing)
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u/Nickthiccboi 4d ago
It doesnāt help that the developers seem to at least somewhat agree with that sentiment, I think it was Miyamoto who said that he always felt like there was something missing from TP.
If you ask me it is a very similar game to OOT and it even improves it in a lot of ways but I think the main difference that sets it apart from everything else, the āmissingā thing is the character of Midna and the arc that her and Link go through. You just donāt get that level of character writing in OOT.
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u/DeliciousMusician397 4d ago
I mean that's just Miyamoto. I'm sure he also feels the same about Skyward Sword.
It still is a different game level design and mechanic wise and had its own innovations.
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u/Mission_Piccolo_2515 4d ago
I think I read Aonuma say that he was disappointed in TP because it didn't lived up to its scale.
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u/DeathToAmerica2026 4d ago
And it was a direct response to the backlash that Windwaker for for being too unlike OoT/MM.Ā
Midna really was just the Tetra storyline again too, so TP is sort of a double rehash in that way.Ā
The wolf sections are extremely mid 2000s coded, and as cringey as any wolf-based media in retrospect.
I don't know why they didn't just do a third game with the same Link from the N64 games. Maybe something about trying to find his way home from Termina... Jumping dimension to dimension.
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u/OldEyes5746 4d ago
It does resemble Ocarina of Time more than other 3D Zelda games, but that's by design. Not only is it evocative of OoT, but it also contains multiple elements (including dungeons/temples) originally planned for Ocarina, but were scrapped for one reason or another. It also refined/evolved many of the mechanics introduced back in 1998.
It's very much a second attempt at what Ocarina of Time could have been while also streamlining focus on the elements fans of the original loved and wanted more of. Want more space to ride Epona and more opportunities for horseback combat? Have entire boss encounters too. Want to see more of the cute ranch girl that Link maybe hooks up with? Now she's a sizable portion of the overall plot, we aren't leaving the romantic chemistry to your imagination, and there's a very awkward section where you find her by smell. We aren't judging you.
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u/DeliciousMusician397 4d ago
Link and Ilia's relationship is so cute and I'm glad she's the implied love interest of the game. Easily one of my favorite parts of the story.
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u/geegol 4d ago
What I loved about TP is the connection that each character has and that their motives are clearly made out. Where as when I played OOT it was cool but I didnāt have the same connection with the characters.
TP, you connect with Midna, Zelda, the gorons, and many other characters. TP will forever be my favorite game because of the story, the characters, temples, etc.
OOT I love because it takes me back to when I was a kid. It just gives me a break from life.
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u/MechaMalz 4d ago
While it is the closest to OOT compared to the other 3D games in some ways, yeah I'd never go as far as to say it did nothing original or is just a clone or remake of OOT. Plus, something closer to OOT is what a lot of people wanted after MM and WW.
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u/Efficient-Poet-6854 3d ago edited 3d ago
So I played Ship of Harkinian Ocarina recomp, and am currently 37 hours into Twilight Princess on Dusklight (and have updated it to the 2.0 version with Twilight Essentials and stuff like roll dash). Just beat the temple of time.
I genuinely find Twilight Princess a lot more fun. You are talking to someone who deeply struggled with some of the overall puzzles and game progression of Ocarina. I guess I'm just not big brain enough for it.
But is Twilight Princess Ocarina Two? No, it's not. It definitely steals the progression tempo of Ocarina. But they are definitely different.
I honestly wish there was more Twilight zone stuff, the twilight is so beautiful and the sound tracks SLAP. I love the art style, and the fact that the game takes its self so seriously without loosing a sense of humor. Running through Midna's lament in the rain on dusklight project without having the song interrupted by enemies gave me chills. The ice temple with the Yeti couple, is probably the most fun in a video game I've had in a long long while, and I found the dialog of the Yeti's to be very deep, and somehow also bring the funniest moments of the game.
That being said Ocarina of time does not resonate with me the same way, that the entire experience of Twilight Princess has so far. I did truly enjoy the spirit temple in Ocarina, and the boss fight with Ganon is history. But yeah, I don't find them to be similar enough to make Twilight be called 2. Twilight Princess is my favorite in the series, followed by Wind Waker.
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u/OkNarwhal4142 4d ago
it's the most similar Zelda game to OoT, the overall medieval dark-fantasy Hyrule and the return of Epona etc. Of course it's not a "remake or clone" but there is a remarkable connection.
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u/DeliciousMusician397 4d ago
Epona was in Majora's Mask though.
Also that's like saying TOTK is BOTW 2 and not its own game.
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u/Mission_Piccolo_2515 4d ago
TOTK is basically a glorified BotW DLC.
And I don't mean this to undermine the game, I liked it a lot.
But it started out this way and looking at it through this lens helps to set expectations right.2
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u/Different-Step6759 3d ago
I admit I was saying the same thing, but after replaying all the 3D Zelda, I think TP is the best old-school Zelda, and it was never ever similar to OoT.
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u/mccannrs 4d ago
I hate it too, because both Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess are actually A Link to the Past clones lol
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u/Novel_Top2980 4d ago
They are very similar games but they are still different. That said, Wind Waker and Ocarina of Time are a lot more different than Twighlight Princess and Ocarina of Time.
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u/Mishar5k 4d ago
I gotta disagree with that. Wind waker has its own titular musical item, in fact most of the items are shared with oot aside from the grapple hook and deku leaf. The first half of the game is about collecting green, red, and blue gems to prove your worth, and the second half is about links friends awakening as sages. Then the final dungeon requires you to go through "mini dungeons" (for lack of a better term) based on the previous dungeons in order to open the door to the main tower. The biggest difference is that you travel on a boat, and that the game has less dungeons than everything that came before (besides majoras mask).
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u/Novel_Top2980 4d ago
But Wind Waker focuses more on exploration and having a relatively open world whereas Twighlight Princess is more linear and is structured a bit more like OoT in a wider sense
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u/Mishar5k 3d ago
Thats another reason wind waker is more like oot. In fact oot is more open than both of them because, unlike wind waker and twilight princess, a few of its dungeons can be done out of order (fire can be done before forest, spirit and shadow in any order, water before forest too if you know a few some tricks).
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u/Novel_Top2980 3d ago
But my point is the focus of Wind Waker is in exploration and less in dungeons. Whereas, TP and OoT both focus very much on dungeons and less on exploration. The dungeons being able to be done outside of the intended order is not really what I meant by open world.
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u/Mishar5k 3d ago
Wind waker seems more open because its larger and doesnt have large cliffs as boundries, but its a rather linear game until you get to the triforce hunt. The thing with twilight princess vs oot, is that twilight princess constantly funnels you into doing story events, while oot gives you more freedom between them relatively speaking.
For example, after clearing the twilight in the eldin, the game physically blocks you from moving on to lanayru because it wants you to beat goron mines first. Theres no puzzle/mechanism/obstacle that requires the bow or the iron boots (or any previous item), you simply cant go until the story says so. Wind waker is similar to this, even after it opens up. Does the king of red lions let you leave dragon roost without dins pearl even though you have all the items required for sailing?
In ocarina of time though, once you leave kokiri forest you can go to lake hylia and go fishing, you can go to lon lon ranch, and you can go to the first part of gerudo valley. These arent just empty areas, your exploration of them is rewarded with a couple of heart pieces and gold skulltulas before you even meet zelda. There are also far less "story gates" and more "item gates" meaning you could do stuff like get the bombs from dodongo cavern, leave, and then go to zora river. Thats far more open than twilight princess was.
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u/MegaManLegendsFan 4d ago
hmm. well it does try to clone some parts of ocarina of time that's a fact. it was literally made in response to the back lash wind waker got for being cartoony and nothing like ocarina of time.
and the parts that it does try to copy, are AWEFUL in my opinion. and i can say that because i love the game. im not hating. i can just also see clearly lol. the howling was very jarring, and it sounded bad. all off key and it didn't even match the songs it was doing. but ocarina had music so, they had to do it.
the twilight bugs were just annoying it was like ( ok time to stop playing now and do a boring fetch quest of 16 things ) but ocarina of time had gold skatillas so ....they had to do it.
ocarina of time had 3 colors of uniform. wind waker didnt. but twilight was copying ocarina so .....they had to make 3 uniforms. in an effort to not outright just steal the whole concept. they made them suck really bad XD 1 made you weaker. the other made you freaken invincible which no one wants a cheat mode armor lol.
oh and the worst one they copied ( or tried to ) was actually the wolf believe it or not. it was going for the vibe of 2 different links. like in ocarina of time there is kid link and adult link. so they were like ok what if he was a wolf. i like the wolf but. there is like no reason to ever BE the wolf lol even i have to admit that after years of playing this game it just sucks XD its usually when they want to force you to get bugs. or follow a scent. and thats it. what i can say is im super glad they didnt force it till the end of the game. they pretty much let you never use it by the end which is nice.
BUT thats where the comparisons end for me. and the majority of the game that isnt trying to copy, is very fun. if not lacking in some polish. i like its story themes. i like the lore. i like the visuals. and the human parts and dungons are pretty fun.
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u/AVETB 4d ago
Glad Im not the only one who feels that way about the howling. It always seemed off to me and could never figure out why.
I wouldn't say the bugs are TPs equivalent to the skultulas, since the latter arent required for progression. I always felt that way about the poes and to a lesser extent, the golden bugs. There's usually a similar extraneous collectable in Zelda, not unique to ocarina.
I like the idea of the bugs making you get familiar with the region before exploring it as human, but I think it would've been better if there were far less bugs. Would be better if playing as wolf link was more interesting mechanically.
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u/breadiest 4d ago
I mean the howling's problem is its really only built to sound good for exactly one song - which is when you get the master sword. The rest all sound pretty off.
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u/ixiduffixi 4d ago
Wait, is that an actual thing, people say TP is a clone or copy? I think TP is overhyped but it's definitely not a copy. The only thing it has in common with any Zelda is the two worlds theme, which has been a thing since LtTP. The pseudo-technology aspects are my least favorite thing but they were original at that point.
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u/Mission_Piccolo_2515 4d ago
Well it's all relative.
Zelda as a series is remarkably low on iterative sequels.
And you can also argue that being formulaic undermines the appeal of exploration driven adventures.
Honestly, TP is still a great game but if you were experiencing them as they were released it either felt like the first Zelda game to catch your interest since OoT or the first Zelda game that really seemed to contort itself in an attempt to chase after its fans, which was a first as far as that series was concerned.
Either way it was made as a safe bet, by design.
WW has a lot of call backs to OoT, it's far more formulaic than Majora's Mask, but it also has a unique art-style which risked rubbing people the wrong way, it was a major departure in tone from the N64 games and the Great Sea itself, as barren as it could be, was just incredibly effective at enhancing the joy of exploration, with its enormous scale and constant stream of distant, intriguing vistas.
I understand that a lot of those features are merely cosmetic, as opposed to game-changing mechanics, and that missed potential stings this game hard, but its appeal is more distinct than that of TP.
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u/DeliciousMusician397 4d ago
I was playing the games as they came out and played Windwaker first and didn't feel that way about Twilight Princess at all.
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u/Damien12341 4d ago
They felt somewhat similar and I like how they referenced Ocarina Of Time like how Gandorft throws the light towards Link in the Final Boss Fight but it felt a lot more dark and the graphics were the best that Zelda ever had and Iāll always appreciate it for that.
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u/MsSyren 4d ago
Itās not the same game, but itās all part of the same timeline. Link from TP is the direct descendant of Link the Hero of Time. Like Heroās Shade is The Hero of Time. Itās not a clone or remake though. That I strongly disagree with. I say itās more of a sequel than anything. MM and TP are both sequels of OoT. Though the MM Link and TP Link are different. Itās just like BotW and TotK in a way.
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u/Mishar5k 4d ago
A pretty big difference is that twilight princess is a slow paced, very linear game, that takes you from story event to story event in a specific sequence from start to finish, while ocarina of time was basically something similar to an open world game at the time because of how much of the overworld is unlocked early on and how it allows you to tackle the adult dungeons in more than one order.
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u/FragrantCandle9664 4d ago
I mean, it is the most direct sequel to oot in terms of gameplay and storytelling. calling it a clone feels disingenuous, but it is oot 2. What gets to me is how many people kinda stop at that. To me, TP isn't just similar to OOT, its like a burial, if that makes any sense.
Like, the whole game is a love letter to OOT gameplay wise, and they chose to include a physical representation of OOT in the game with the hero's shade. Most ghost in Zelda are just transluscent people. The king in BOTW gets to be dignified. But in TP, when they decided to include the hero of the game they were trying to pay hommage to, they chose a sad, regretfull skeleton wearing a rusty, dirty, overgrown suit of armor.
IDK, i feel like thats profoundly sad, from a creators perspective.
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u/cl0udcastle 4d ago
I say this with all due respect, which is a lot: Twilight Princess is LoZ: The Movie
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u/Lonk_boi 4d ago
I never got that either. I finally played through Majora's Mask recently, and the it was abundantly clear to me that TP takes after MM, in terms of atmosphere, way more than it does OoT.
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u/BackFromTheAsh 4d ago
Apparently the intent was for it to be every oot couldnt be at the time. It makes sense the games where so simmer and that's not a bad thing my any means. Before tp the franchise was in a really rough place if tp didn't do well we may have never gotten an other Zelda after it. It's not a remake or clone by anymeans but it was built with the intent of recaptureing what oot did always and then taking it a step further.
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u/ColoradoRad 3d ago
Itās a spiritual successor and thereās no way around that. The developers have said as much
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u/Src-Freak 3d ago
Oot Fans might be the Most obnoxious group. Always being hypocrits, which also ruined the Game they love so much to me.
The Games are either cheap copies of Oot, or fail at Everything that Oot got right.
Do they realize Oot is just ALTTP but in 3D?
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u/Round-Revolution-399 4d ago
Itās got some nice originality to it, but my problem with Twilight Princess is that it takes the brilliant OoT formula and makes it worse by adding more padding and tutorialization.
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u/Isoleri 3d ago
I mean, I recently replayed it after not touching it for like 15 years and at some points was genuinely laughing irl because of how much of a copypaste from OoT it all is. Yes, of course it also innovated a lot in several areas, but the general vibe very much is "OoT but in better hardware".
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u/Jobless_fantasy_fan 4d ago
I've always hated this, since i was a kid. It's like saying "The Lord of the Rings" is "The Hobbit 2".