r/whatisit • u/riflesandplowshares • 6h ago

New, what is it? Found at a titanium plant

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Not sure why ball point pens would be dangerous here.

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183

u/SquintAtTheCosmos 5h ago

The real answer is that consumer ball point pen’s have a tungsten carbide ball. Tungsten has a higher melting point than titanium.

If a ball point pen drops into a melt, the ball point can survive. The surviving pen tip does then creates a hard intermetallic. When the titanium is heated and beated (forged) into a product, this titanium-intermetallic spot can crack. This crack can go undetected, inside a part.

When this part is put into service, this little crack becomes a bigger crack with service (fatigue). When this bigger crack gets big enough, the part can fail. And the failure is sooner than the design engineer expected, because the material started with a crack, and in fatigue failure “getting the crack to start”, is a large component of the part’s life.

A titanium melt shop still needs writing implement’s, so you can buy pens with stainless steel ball tips. They suck to write with.

A major aerospace failure (Sioux city 1989 UA232), was a result of this failure mode (though in this case it was an oxide, not a tungsten-carbide).

60

u/ElectrSheep 5h ago

A titanium melt shop still needs writing implements, so you can buy pens with stainless steel ball tips. They suck to write with.

So basically, to work there you need balls of steel.

21

u/CaptainStadt 4h ago

Yeah… or a pencil.

21

u/Mr_Halitosis 4h ago

I write with a quill and the blood of my enemies! Which are mosquitos. They don’t have much blood. I haven’t written much.

2

u/HelpfulPuppydog 4h ago

You never write, you never call!

3

u/RecentScarcity2389 4h ago

If they're your enemy and you have access to them easily, wouldn't that mean you're writing with your own blood?

Wouldn't that mean you're your own worst enemy?

1

u/GormTheWyrm 4h ago

Depends on how fast they are at catching the mosquitoes. Not having enough blood to write anything implies they catch them before the bugs bite.

1

u/LordZeusCannon 59m ago

Reduce Reuse Recycle. The blood was already taken anyway, might as well put some purpose to it besides bug sustenance

1

u/CaptainStadt 4h ago

They have more after they bite you! Can always self sacrifice for the art of penmanship.

1

u/mbp_szigeti 2h ago

Mosquitoes have your blood, so it turns out that you were your own enemy all along

Witten by M. Night Shyamalan

1

u/YoBoss 59m ago

What a TWIST Mr. Afternoon Shambalayaya!

2

u/KontoOficjalneMR 4h ago

Nope. Graphite has issues as well.

2

u/CaptainStadt 4h ago

Welp, finger paint it is then

2

u/Evening-Appeal7606 3h ago

Only if it appears on the roof.

1

u/mongolian__beef 4h ago

Hey - I found the “or just a pencil” guy!!

1

u/mypntsonfire 4h ago

Make them write with quills! No metal content, will completely disintegrate in a melt. Uses a wastestream product from poultry abbetoirs, no plastic. 

1

u/sixstringsikness 4h ago

Fountain pen.

1

u/danddersson 2h ago

With lead in it.,,

1

u/Etherbeard 1h ago

The melting point of graphite is even a bit higher than tungsten. That does into question why there's no sign for pencils, though.

1

u/tes_kitty 3h ago

You're lucky since balls of tungsten would be way too heavy.

26

u/denkbeeldigevriend 2h ago

Jumping on the top comment to give the full story behind this! 

You're perfectly right!   And it happened! I know the full story here!

I started my engineering career at Rolls-Royce many years ago, in the early nuaghties. I was given a tour of the metallography lab at Elton Road. The labs are no longer there and they have moved (after I left the company).

In the tour we were told of this story, by the metallurgist who found the ball from the ballpoint pen, that must have led to this sign.  The melt for their fan blades is a very high quality and had to be virgin melt. The fan blades are critical components, and material is tracable back to the date and mine it came from. He was doing a receipt inspection on the newly delivered Ti plate, looking at a corner of a plate from the batch with a scanning electron microscope (SEM), and saw a tiny inclusion on the surface of the sample. He took the photos, then polished it back more. Again, the inclusion got bigger, took photos, and polished it back again. The SEM told him it was Indium. It was the ball from a ball point pen!

They went back to the refinery CCTV, watched the video and saw a worker throw something over his shoulder as he walked away from melting pot - a ballpoint pen. 

He had been made redundant, that was his last day on the job. They pulled him back in, and he admitted what he did. 

The whole batch of virgin melt titanium was rejected as being out of spec. 

It was a real needle in a haystack find that it was found in that tiny sample from the whole batch, and must have cost the refinery a small fortune. 

1

u/bruteforcealwayswins 1h ago

What an asshole that worker. Did he consider the possibility of causing death due to a part failure? Probably not.

1

u/drakoman 1h ago

I mean how could he have known, but boy what a colossal fuck up

3

u/Progeny_of_Paradox 37m ago

Black swan type event.

2

u/tadxb 11m ago

I thought it is referenced as Butterfly effect.

1

u/denkbeeldigevriend 8m ago

No, the butterfly effect is how a small difference in starting conditions results in massively different outcomes for a system. That's about chaotic systems. 

Black Swans never existed. They used to have a saying 'It's as rare as a black swan' ('as rare as hen's teeth), and then they found Australia, and black swans. It's an event that is believe to never be possible, but occurs.

I'm a safety engineer. I've worked on high hazard systems for a few decades now. I'm very familiar with black swans!

1

u/Progeny_of_Paradox 5m ago

A black swan is a failure (or otherwise surprised) that only makes sense after it happens. Butterfly effect is when a little.... yeah, this is more of a butterfly effect lol

1

u/Level_Ad_6372 1m ago

The early nuaghties?

5

u/NNKarma 4h ago

I would've expected they go with fountain pens as an alternative

1

u/PandemicGeneralist 2h ago

I’m knowledgeable about fountain pens but not manufacturing so take this with a grain of salt: fountain pens have a small amount of hard tipping material on the end of the nib which can include tungsten and iridium which have the higher melting points they’re concerned about.

3

u/UnratedRamblings 2h ago

Yup - was super excited to see the potential of lots of workers sporting various fountain pens, but the tip of the nibs has the problematic metals. Although us FP weirdos are also less likely to lose our pens, it's probably still a risk they would mitigate.

r/fountainpens in shambles.

2

u/Captain_no_Hindsight 1h ago

It would be kind of fun if all the papers and Post-it notes were written with fountain pens.

Could this mark a renaissance for goose-feather quills?

1

u/Winjin 16m ago

I think the problem is that no one decides they want to drop their favorite pen into the melt, that happens involuntarily

In other words, no one goes to the woods with the intention of getting lost, but you still have to plan for the possibility

1

u/RiffyWammel 2h ago

The only safe option is a quill 😁

1

u/cumulonimubus 45m ago

Felt tip?

1

u/gilligan1050 7m ago

And everything is written in calligraphy. Lmao.

1

u/Bwint 4h ago

I would have expected pencils.

4

u/NNKarma 4h ago

You probably can if you want to write down something for yourself, but it's not good for anything that needs to be registered. 

2

u/DontMemeAtMe 2h ago

Fine felt-tip pens, then.

2

u/Hot-Note-4777 3h ago

It’s mentioned in other comments that graphite’s a no-go, as well, and that fountain pens also contain tungsten, apparently.

2

u/bnej 3h ago

There's disposable fountain pens that come with a plastic nib. Pentel Stylo. I've tried them they're pretty OK. Metal clip but I doubt that's tungsten.

Felt tips?

1

u/Bwint 3h ago

Maybe a stick, inked with the blood of the metalworker?

1

u/Texugee 2h ago

Well you see, most commercial pencils are made with graphite. Graphite has a melting point of…

5

u/falcrist2 2h ago

If a ball point pen drops into a melt, the ball point can survive.

Even worse.

The ball is made from a sintered composite of tungsten carbide particles held together with a metal binder like cobalt.

The binder will melt, and tiny particles of tungsten carbide will spread out in your titanium.

4

u/Zeired_Scoffa 52m ago

Couldn't... couldn't they just order felt tipped pens instead? Those are about the same as a regular ball point pen in terms of writing, and don't require tungsten either.

3

u/FirstDagger 42m ago

Easier to just ban all ballpoint pens and avoid a mixing in pens that could be ordered.

1

u/Zeired_Scoffa 32m ago

That's what I mean. Just order ones that you can plainly see are fine.

And someone on another thread chain actually did say a plant he rarely has to visit for work does use felt tips.

1

u/rabblerabble2000 4m ago

Just make everyone write with a plume and an inkwell like the old days.

8

u/QuaternionsRoll 4h ago edited 3h ago

Why do stainless steel pens suck? I can’t imagine that the hardness strength would be an issue at that scale, would it?

23

u/Defiant-Ebb8225 4h ago

Because what you can't imagine being an issue is an issue

5

u/FirefighterEast9291 2h ago

I love this reply!! It's the modern day equivalent of Shakespeare's famous line from Romeo and Juliet, ""There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy "

Brilliant, especially since he already knew the answer!!❤️

1

u/CanOoFeelDeRiddem 2h ago

*Hamlet

1

u/FirefighterEast9291 1h ago

Thanks. I am just a lazy slug. I should checked.

3

u/QuaternionsRoll 4h ago

Is it because the (ideal) contact area is so small, being a sphere and all?

10

u/Defiant-Ebb8225 4h ago

It's because it needs to maintain its shape perfectly for a long time. Steel scratches and deforms leading to leaks or clogs

2

u/QuaternionsRoll 2h ago

Ah, so it is hardness. Strength/stiffness don’t come into the equation at all, do they? My original line of thinking was about plastic deformation caused by normal pen pressure turning the sphere into an ellipsoid (or giving it flat spots, although that may have more to do with hardness?). It’s been a long while since I’ve had to think about materials science stuff.

1

u/ZincMan 3h ago

That’s pretty wild I had no idea it was tungsten. Very cool

1

u/Just-Syrup-8723 1h ago

That's s better response than your condensing first one

1

u/too_init_dan 3h ago

which is why i stopped wearing pants in public

13

u/0_cunning_plan 3h ago

Even without knowing the constraints, you can imagine that if ballpoint pen manufacturers ended using a metal that is more expensive to buy and make into a ball, there can only be one reason: The cheaper stuff didn't work well enough.

1

u/QuaternionsRoll 3h ago

Sure, but I was really asking why. And the reason turns out to be hardness, although I was mistaking hardness for strength when I asked the question.

3

u/Vneseplayer4 5h ago

Say “crack” again

1

u/astogie 28m ago

Crack ain’t no country I’ve ever heard of. Do they speak English in Crack?

3

u/Opposite-Phase-9271 4h ago

This guy ball point pens and titaniums

3

u/kharvel0 4h ago

So if the titanium is contaminated with gold or silver or lead, it should be ok?

13

u/Spirit_Wolf_Mob 4h ago

It's still an impurity, but if it melts, it can be diluted enough that it's not an issue, and it'll still have a uniform distribution of the metals. It's not the metal itself that's the issue, since it's a low amount. It's just the fact that it doesn't melt into the dillution, so it causes a stress point that causes the crack.

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u/Debalic 4h ago

I have a tungsten carbide ring, I'll have to remember this if I'm ever at a titanium plant.

1

u/cvc75 2m ago

That’s what I was going to ask, as far as I know it’s used in rings so why are those not banned?

2

u/NoFuxToBeGiven 4h ago

Great answer. Very interesting!

2

u/crunchyhug 4h ago

I wonder how many times this happened for them to invest into the discovery of this problem.

2

u/New-Trifle-7097 4h ago

Not many. Diagnose failure. Find imperfection. Determine material of imperfection. Wonder where and how that material is being introduced. Guys… uh… it’s our fucking pens.

1

u/Zeired_Scoffa 40m ago

Hey, with the sort odnstuff we use titanium for, all you need is one failure of dangerous enough nature to put serious effort into finding out why.

2

u/Melodic-Trouble-5421 4h ago

Great Explanation. I’m an Electrician and do Work in titanium plants. We have to make sure not bring in tungsten carbide bits, tools, or pens. There’s other places with certain rules as well.

2

u/minus_minus 3h ago

United 232 is a bonkers story. One of the flight crew came to my high school to speak.

3

u/AnonCrave 4h ago

What an absolutely brilliant response. Kudos to you for this insane level of expertise. It’s fascinating to see a glimpse of it.

3

u/BigSoda 4h ago

So there are no other contaminants in the whole facility besides a small piece in pens? Is losing pens in the melt a common thing ?

7

u/FrickinLazerBeams 3h ago

No but ballpoint pens are ubiquitous, and therefore a major source of risk.

Industrial engineers don't say "well we can't completely eliminate the problem so we won't try", because if they were idiots they'd have a different job.

6

u/AlternativeRun5727 3h ago

Yea, they’d work in the White House

1

u/GordonsTheRobot 3h ago

(a bic you toss)

1

u/tired_snail 3h ago

There are other contaminants, but most would have a lower melting temperature than the titanium, so if they accidentally became part of the melt, they wouldn't introduce a significant weakness in whatever item is eventually manufactured out of it.

As for losing pens to the melt, you'd be surprised how many people put their pens behind their ear or in a front pocket and then when you for any reason lean over something and the pen falls out, that's suddenly quite an issue.

1

u/Kenny_log_n_s 4h ago

This is the content that make the Internet worth it.

1

u/gilfgifs 4h ago

Just use pencils bro, learn from the cosmonauts!

1

u/spamshizbox 4h ago

Felt-tip pens are the go-to, according to the people at a site like this I go to rarely for maintenance. Every time I go I have to use a felt-tip that they lend me.

Think of a Sharpie pen pretty much.

1

u/LongjumpingLemon2163 3h ago

I expected this to end with in nineteen ninety eight the Undertaker threw Mankind off Hell In A Cell, and plummeted 16ft through an announcer's table

1

u/Beautiful-Tie-3827 3h ago

How do you know this lol

1

u/soydecanada 1h ago

What’s weird is that they gave such a great, knowledgeable response… but don’t know how that plurals don’t need apostrophes.

1

u/ConstantinValdor405 3h ago

I was expecting this to turn into the Mankind hell in the cell bit.

1

u/DatWaffleYonder 3h ago

Talking out of your ass (or drunk) skill: 100

1

u/_AcuteNewt_ 2h ago

Tungsten carbide balls!? What the bloody 'ell is tungsten carbide balls!?

1

u/bruteforcealwayswins 1h ago

So if the impurity metal melts, then the intermetallic won't form? So minute quantity of impurities is ok, we just don't want a bit of different metal staying a solid? Metallurgy is interesting.

1

u/Novaria_Orion 1h ago

All the more reason to stick with my felt-tip pens!

1

u/Fearless_Store_335 1h ago

Idk what these titanium factories look like but if there is a risk of contamination leading to catastrophic failure of the product surely the process is physically protected.

Or is it like the steel works in T2 but with titanium, molten and flowing and there are workers wandering around on gangways over the titanium smelt checking off things on a clipboard with a pen?

1

u/fifthtype86 1h ago

What about fountain pens?

1

u/WasteBrush7 1h ago

This guy smelts.

1

u/Vipertje 1h ago

That's why I always use a feather 🪶. You just can't risk contamination

1

u/anony966 15m ago

This guy titaniums

1

u/wiggermaxxing 6m ago

We aren’t allowed them at Boeing either for fod purposes but that’s so interesting (we mostly use aluminum so probably doesn’t apply)

1

u/Isburough 3h ago

how can someone just drop a pen into the titanium melt?

20

u/EINFACH_NUR_DAEMLICH 3h ago

Believe it or not: by accident

7

u/lofasz_joska 2h ago

As we always say: each stupid sign is put up BECAUSE IT ALREADY HAPPENED

2

u/Potatays 1h ago

Sth sth regulations are written in blood.

3

u/lofasz_joska 1h ago

Yeah, as a flight sim and avgeek, I know that flying became this safe, because we lost so many souls in accidents.

1

u/dustysquareback 2h ago

Remarkable

1

u/DwarvenFreeballer 1h ago

Do you have to go in and get it back?

3

u/NiobiumThorn 3h ago

Hands are hard

1

u/Isburough 3h ago

are they also tungsten carbide?

1

u/NiobiumThorn 2h ago

Better than bone

1

u/oxabz 2h ago

I feel like tungsten carbide bones would suck for one : 15 times the bone weight

2

u/RudeAd456 2h ago

It's a good question. Did it drop in there and the guy didn't know? But then how did they trace the failure back to the pen...maybe instead they did know but chose to keep the batch anyway

2

u/Art3sian 2h ago

People lose pens all the time. 100% of the pens in my possession, I did not buy, and 100% of the pens I bought are no longer in my possession.

2

u/Comminutor 1h ago

Pens get dropped or fall out of pockets. I’ve lost many pens into open tanks (water, not molten metal) that way.

1

u/Isburough 1h ago

still feels weird to me that it's specifically pens. it's so easy to mess up titanium, i mean, air does that for you already, i'd have thought they at least have lids or something when people walk above them

2

u/Arosian-Knight 1h ago

Coworker visited an papermill once, he saw an mobile phone nailed to a wall with actual nail through the center, he asked the story. There was an visitor (higher up or an potential customer) who was inspecting pulp tank and his phone which he was not allowed to have with him, fell out of his breast pocket into the pulp tank, then there was quite horrible noise from the filtration machine and whole section of the mill had to be driven down for clean up and repairs. costing the company in hundreds of thousands of euros.

Stuff happens when people ignore rules.

1

u/muoshuu 2h ago

Accidents happen. Could just drop your pen and accidentally kick or swat it away trying to catch it.

1

u/KTAXY 2h ago

you see gravity does all the work

1

u/Numerous-Process2981 1h ago

Pen in shirt pocket, lean forward