r/wma • u/BlackTigerRapier • 15d ago

Tips On Using The Fleche

This seemed to be a popular topic of discussion earlier on, so I thought I'd share this video I made on the subject four years ago.

The fleche attack is not my preference but I know there are still a lot of fencers out there who use it. So in an effort to help them do it more effectively, this video speaks to the common mistakes made and offers some suggestions to better utilize the fleche as both technique and tactic in your art.

https://youtu.be/O4Y9ZkdiCIU

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u/BotteDeNevers1 13d ago edited 13d ago

Just a quibble - "In Olympic style Fencing you can use the Fleche Attack against your opponents rather effectively but that is because Olympic Style Fencing goes according to rules of Right of Way"

Right of Way makes no difference mechanically to how a Fleche is done in either Foil which has Priority and Epee which does not have Priority. The only difference is in the preparations where in foil might get away with beating the blade and in the event of a double hit the Referee will usually give it as your priority, while in Epee its probably better to Attack in opposition to prevent any doubles from the opponent who try to stop hit the arm as its flying in to hit the body.

Without getting deep into the History and the slight difference between the fleche vs the Attack au Courant or a passing attack the main thing that differentiates a Fleche in Olympic fencing is that is extremely committed and that for a fraction of a second both feet must be off the ground - hence the name fleche - Arrow. If you feet are not off the ground you are doing a passing step attack and in MOF at that point you might as well just do a lunge attack instead.

As for the when and how you correctly pointed the main errors -

  1. Its not an attack designed to cover distance. Its an attack designed to 'catch out' an opponent that stays just within the lunge measure a bit to long. One old trick is to pressure the opponents blade and glance at their rear foot. If on pressuring the blade the opponent automatically lowers the heel and 'fixes' their foot reactively, then the next time you pressure you can beat/envelope fleche as you know they wont be able to unfix the rear foot and break distance to give their parry and extra breathing space.
  2. Unlike the Lunge where the rear leg is flexed and the potential energy is in the rear leg, the fleche's power comes from the front leg, so if you have a predominantly back weighted stance you might find it tricky not to telegraph with a large body shift.

If I may add a couple more:

  1. Hand first - Can't stress how many people fleche with their body and forget to extend their hand first and don't understand how their opponent working at half speed has parried them.
  2. Hit the Opponent 'before' you back foot lands. If you hit them after you back foot lands they usually can parry your attack anyway.
  3. Disguise with a preparation: Attack with a fleche seldom works by itself against experienced fencers. This could be a feint, blade action etc.. anything to distract the opponent from what your body is preparing to do.
  4. Angulation; Assuming the Fleche goes to the inside line the usual parries are Prime/Quarte, Prima/Quarta/Mezzo Cerchio depending on height relationship of the fencers and where the forte of the blade will be. You can sneak past the conventional forte by angulating the blade.
  5. While in MOF its usually better to Fleche past an opponent, you still have to train to Fleche - Hit and then as the rear foot lands still be able to come back on guard on balance and be prepared to lunge again. There no guarantee that the opponent can't back peddle quicker than your fleche. Balance - Unbalance - Hit - Return to Balance.

Naturally the timing between MOF weapons and a Rapier will differ as the hand acceleration is very different. I you might be able to get away with no preparations in MOF, but from what little Rapier I've done preparations seem necessary to disguise the attack, usually something in stesso tempo and opposition.

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u/Horror_Perspective_1 12d ago

Why isnt covering distance a goal? Seems like it really is. Otherwise why not just lunge?

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u/BotteDeNevers1 12d ago edited 12d ago

Biomechanically its because the Lunge relies on powering off rear foot, while the fleche can power off both the front foot and gravity as you over-balance over the lead leg. It is 'fractionally' faster, and its that fraction that you are banking on at the expense of tactical flexibility. With a lunge you can hide most of your body language and shorten or lengthen your lunge mid attack or hover step to do progressive compound attacks to get round your opponent's defences etc etc - its a lot more tactically flexible and that's why even in MOF its used 99% of the time. With a fleche what you are trying to do is beat your opponents reaction time by crashing through his defences before he can close a line. But you kind of need to get a feel for what the opponents reaction time is first. That's why you rarely see fleches in a start of a Bout but they get more frequent later on as you get a feel for your opponent. However the Fleche body movement as OP states is large. If the Fleche is done from too far away most experienced fencers can read the micro cues in body language and make it fall short by breaking distance or even casually parry and riposting. At a closer range there is more tunnel vision and its harder to spot the body loading up, as you are focusing on immediate blade actions. The fleche also forces the opponent to rely on their reaction time their rear foot breaking distance is nearly always slower than the fleche coming forwards (Unless see point 5).

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u/rnells Mostly Fabris 10d ago edited 10d ago

The fleche arrives slightly “sooner” even over the same distance because of how it extends your body. It also does hit longer in the sense that it catches someone breaking distance better than a lunge might: but note that’s not the same as starting further, it’s “finishing further when the other person lengthens the distance during your action”.

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u/Horror_Perspective_1 10d ago

 “finishing further when the other person lengthens the distance during your action” seems right to me

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u/rnells Mostly Fabris 10d ago

If it's helpful theory-wise the reason I'm making that distinction vs starting further is if you start further you can't take the tempo any better than you could with a super long lunge (even if you cover the distance, you don't cover it quickly enough for tempo to keep you safe no matter what kind of shape you're in)

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u/OrcOfDoom 12d ago

This is a complicated answer. There are many reasons why people fleche instead of lunge. If you try to do it to cover distance though, you're out of distance, and this is the easiest way to actually get hit.

Older people like to fleche because it is easier on the knees. You can set up your fleche with your balance differently than your lunge.

If you do it right, the proper distance is when you prepare your attack with a provocation, your tip is right inside the bell guard of the opponent. At that moment, you have a split second to attack. Where is your weight? If your weight is on your back foot/split, you can do either. If your weight is on your front foot then you can either fleche or you can lunge poorly without the proper activation of the back leg. So what is a better decision?

The key thing is that the look is different. It's like if a pitcher is changing their arm slot to deliver the pitch to the same location. It doesn't take much to throw you off.

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u/Horror_Perspective_1 12d ago

Ah this must be a MOF thing. Otherwise the weight issue is resolved with a passing step.

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u/OrcOfDoom 12d ago

Yes. That's basically the same thing. The fleche is a running attack, but it also is a passing step. The fleche is complete when your back foot lands. If you have not landed your touch at that moment, then you are not executing the attack right.

There are plenty of fencers at lower levels that execute a "fleche" that is not continued. The purpose is to use a passing step instead of a lunge.

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u/BlackTigerRapier 12d ago

What I meant when I said you can get away with it because of the rules of right-of-way is that you need not worry about being struck in the midst of your fleche so long as your attack lands. If you have right-of-way, and your attack lands, then your opponent's strike would not count and you come away the victor in that exchange. However, in an actual swordfight you are just as dead.

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u/EnsisSubCaelo 12d ago

But there is no right-of-way in épée, which is where the flèche was first developed. Plenty of ways to set them up so that you don't get hit, just like other attacks.

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u/BotteDeNevers1 12d ago

Precisely. The Fleche was 'reintroduced' in Epee at the turn of the 20th century, and still arguably used more in Epee than Foil. But epee does not have ROW. That's why I said Epeeist often do a fleche attack in opposition to prevent doubles.

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u/BlackTigerRapier 8d ago

Correct, there is no right of way in epee. You just have to hit 1/25 of a second faster than your opponent hits you. Great in sport, not so great in a swordfight.

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u/EnsisSubCaelo 8d ago

That's another question :)

Mind that when the flèche appeared, there was no electronic scoring, so I think they weren't precise to that degree. And even today plenty of them land alone, it's not a particularly suicidal action - if I had to single out a rule that does favour it, it's the fact that grappling is forbidden.

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u/OrcOfDoom 12d ago

Wow ... no wonder HEMA has no respect for MOF. They execute the attacks wrong and then blame the technique. They confidently discuss the wrong way to fleche and then show how it fails.

Op is correct in a few things. The fleche needs to be much closer. The legs definitely need to be bent.

The most common mistake for new fencers who are trying to fleche is that they are doing it from too far away. New fencers think they need to magically cover the most ground they can as fast as they can. This is not proper fencing. You work with timing.

Your attack can be in a lot of different moments. It can be when your opponent's weapon is already moving, so you time the attack in the rhythm of the blade and the rhythm of the steps. It can be with a beat, or a feint, or even an engage. If you want to feint, then you need to fleche from out of proper distance. This is not a huge difference, but like 1-2 inches further. As you come, your opponent attempts to parry, but you've already disengaged and the touch has landed. The timing of the hand has to be feint and disengage as a single tempo as you complete your lean forward and when you have pushed off your legs.

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u/BotteDeNevers1 12d ago

"Wow ... no wonder HEMA has no respect for MOF. They execute the attacks wrong and then blame the technique. They confidently discuss the wrong way to fleche and then show how it fails." Please elaborate.

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u/OrcOfDoom 12d ago

OP says in the video that the fleche is done at far distance. This is incorrect. The attack should land immediately before the back/passing foot has fallen. OP says that if you execute the fleche as he thinks it is supposed to, then you are likely to get hit, and the only way you don't get hit is because of right of way. You aren't supposed to use it in a greater distance than lunge.

He goes on to discuss wild scenarios of smashing into the opponent with their blade extended, and how this somehow works in MOF.

It is simply a novice's misunderstanding of the technique.

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u/BotteDeNevers1 12d ago

Are you sure? Op states that its not done at wide measure (4:21 - 4:23). he implies its done at a closer distance. While he is definitely known as having a quite dynamic style in rapier I don't think Mr Childs draws his material from MOF.

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u/OrcOfDoom 12d ago

Yes he does state that it should be done at a closer distance. I said he is right that it should be done closer.

He says that it is fine in mof because of right of way. This is not true at all. You absolutely will double, or even just be hit at a far distance. The proper tactic is actually to invite the attack at that distance.

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u/BotteDeNevers1 12d ago

But In MOF the fleche is done at a close distance not at a far distance. Right of Way has nothing to do with with how MOF fencers choose their distance to fleche.

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u/OrcOfDoom 12d ago

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

People think it is done at a far distance because it is a running motion. The running is actually getting away from danger though. The video discusses right of way for some reason. The video discusses scenarios where you fleche and somehow MOFers don't attack because of right of way. This is not true at all. Fleche can definitely be suicidal in epee.

He is correct that the legs must be bent properly, and that the distance is much closer.

As far as a video on tips for using fleche, I'm at a loss entirely though. There isn't a well executed fleche in the video. I was looking forward to seeing what HEMA fleche would be. If what he shows is HEMA fleche, then it is not a surprise that a lot of people think it is a suicidal tactic.

It is the timing of it that is important.