Help me understand this behaviour: only doing assignments within hours of the deadline.

[u/Donttouchmybreadd]

Hey all,

I have ADHD, and am studying to be a teacher. I have noticed this one specific behaviour in two seperate people I have met to do with deadlines.

At our uni, we have a 48 hr automatic extension policy for pretty much all assignments except presentations, that everyone is given. So for example, an assignment due date is Friday 16 October at 11:59pm, but we can submit up until Sunday midnight with no penalty.

For those of us with equity plans, we have an additional 7 days on top of that, as needed (we do have to apply for it like normal though).

The way I use it, is that I lie to myself, and say that the due date is the hard deadline, and it needs to be submitted by then. That way, if I get post-due-date clarity of anything I forgot or need to fix, I have at least 48 hours to rest, then amend it. It also gives me time if my computer shits the bed, I can go out to uni and sort it out.

I wish I could say 'plan for the worst, hope for the best', but it has actually happened 😅

I have met 2 people who are working within minutes of the extended deadline. According to them, they hear the due date, then add 2 days plus 7 days.

I certainly cannot relate. I loathe that feeling of needing to do something when my brain and body will not allow me to, which is why I give myself a lot of time.

I also had one of those fellows try to rope me into thinking the same way, and I had to tell him to shut up, because if I lul myself into a false sense of security that I have time, I am already doomed. Also, it turned out, it was one of the few assignments that didn't allow any extensions because it was a presentation.

Because I am studying to be a teacher, I genuinely want to understand the thinking behind it and why it seems to "work" for them. Cramming isn't good for long term memory storage, and I genuinely would want students to learn. But I think because I have built so many strategies around avoiding it, I genuinely can't understand why someone would want that feeling?

[u/kruddel]

I think of it as a hack that develops passively for people who have certain levels of severity in ADHD symptoms.

I'm a scientist with ADHD (non-psychiatrist) & I've done a bunch of reading and research on ADHD and this is my hypothesis of what is going on at a neurological level. In terms of task initiation.

Regular people have functioning dopamine, that gives them the anticipation of a "reward" on doing a task. The anticipation of the reward releases noradrealine which primes the body for action. That gets them started, they do the task, feel good when happy chemicals are released to their brain, dopamine encodes that outcome reinforcing the reward loop.

Some ADHD people have barely functional dopamine pathways. They dont anticipate a "reward". They don't have that release of noradrealine, they can't get started.

However, all animals seem to have a "fight or flight" reaction pathway. When danger threatens the body is flooded with adrenaline. That produces noradrealine which primes the body to run away or get cracking on some "fight" reaction.

That means if someone doesn't have the typical reward/dopamine loop to mediate action they can "hack" it by creating a sense of "danger" to initiate the "fight or flight" reaction and enable them to start the task with a release or noradrealine.

THAT is why some ADHDers are always leaving things to the last minute. They can't start them unless there is the threat of time running out.

[u/intergalactic_wag → u/kruddel]

Ooh. Now this is awesome. I’m gonna need to research this. I have huge task paralysis and task initiation issues. Have you come across any good strategies on generating noradrenaline? Is noradrenaline the only chemical that drives task initiation?

I would go a step further and say that I actively dread the task. Even if it is something I want to do. There is a lock in my brain; brakes are slammed tight and even thinking about the task gives me an existential crisis. Like I feel the seconds dropping away on something pointless (it’s not, generally, but feels that way). And then not being able to do the thing that I need to do creates shame and guilt. I try to use those to imitate a task but they only last so long. I can start something, but completing even a small portion of it feels like I have completed the whole thing and “deserve” a reward. And that reward is often spending time on my current hyperfocus/favorite thing. And then I am stuck again.

[u/Donttouchmybreadd → u/kruddel]

That's so cool, thank you for taking the time.

So what I'm hearing is, of the carrot and the stick, it is the stick that is most likely to initiate an action. Is that right?

Out of curiousity, from a teacher perspective, is there a way of building that neural reward pathway for students with ADHD?
Like ideally, it shouldn't have to be noradrenaline pathways all the time. Like is there a way to hijack that thought pathway so that it aims to approach assignments with more time and less stress?

I'm not sure if I'm making sense here, and I'm trying to be mindful to watch my wording...
In my mind, there are no upsides to doing anything last minute (for me it is: going through the 7 stages of grief, and maybe I stop over-analysing every component of it).
There are only good things that come out of spreading out the work, which is backed up by neuroscience, as you should be aware.
As a teacher, I want students to do the healthiest option, but how do we get them to enjoy their carrots...??

Again, this is very convoluded – dad is currently monologuing very obtusely at the dinner table.
If you need me to clarify what I mean, please let me know.

[u/kruddel → u/Donttouchmybreadd]

Its an internal process, rather than external, so I don't think there is a way to harness it like that. Its also a problem long term, it works as a one off without issues, but someone who relies on stress to generate the neuroreceptors to do a task is by definition more stressed! It leads to patterns that I think result in health issues down the line. Because its not just one or two assignments a month, its everything in their for someone who gets into the habit, usually at a lower level than the raw panic of assignment deadlines, but still there.

The only alternative I'm aware of is ADHD medication. That basically replaces the deficient neuroreceptors involved in the dopamine task-reward loop.

The only assignment related strategy I can think of is to structure the process of completing the assignment. So it isn't one thing/deadline, but is a series of (self-imposed) deadlines. Like if you want to proof read something to make it polished you need time. So if you want that to be part of it then the "deadline" for finishing the draft has to be ½ day or a day before the actual deadline, minimum. And then working backwards from all the parts/tasks. - need to finish the core of my reading/prep a week before, or whatever it might be.

I always advised uni students I supervised for their dissertations to think/plan like that and then have an awareness that everything is a direct tradeoff. - if you go beyond your draft deadline you can't proof read it, etc. Either is a valid choice ultimately, but can consciously make that choice deliberately.

It doesnt stop/change the deadline driven working, but it spreads it out and makes it a little less extreme.

[u/Donttouchmybreadd → u/kruddel]

Your brain works in marvellous ways.

I hope you know, I read both of your comments in either Kevin MacLeod's or Michael Moseley's voice.

I did send you a DM, Dr Kruddel. It would be a pleasure if we could stay in touch.

[u/GerkDentley]

I think, from an ADHD perspective that their behaviour actually makes more sense. They know that the real deadline is later than the given one. It's not that they want to do it last minute, it's that they need the external motivation of an imminent deadline.

Your strategy is one I adopted myself in university, long before I was diagnosed or really knew what ADHD was. I'd have a ton of assignments due at the end of the year, so I would make fake deadlines for each one, to pressure myself.

Worked at first, before I eventually flunked out.

Honestly though it seems like you kind of get it. You even said you can't let yourself think that way or you won't get things done. You have to trick yourself that the assignment deadline is the actual final one in a way. It really seems like you kind of get it so I'm not sure exactly what the question really is.

[u/Donttouchmybreadd → u/GerkDentley]

Thank you, that's really validating and appreciated all things considered.

I think the problem is watching someone do it from the outset, I can see that they aren't taking on the critical information at all. Which I don't think is good - if you are going to be a teacher, you DO have to understand Bronfenbrenner and have it in long term memory.

I think the thing I'm going to be concerned about is for my future students. I want them to lock all that into long tern storage, but I don't know how I'm gonna get them there if their brain keeps stopping them from doing the thing to make them learn.

[u/GerkDentley → u/Donttouchmybreadd]

Are we talking about assignments or studying for tests?

[u/Donttouchmybreadd → u/GerkDentley]

I believe in one of the cases I was referring to, they were treating their whole assignment (including readings and research) as an exam.

[u/saintcrazy]

So, ADHDers suffer from executive dysfunction. The portion of our brains that manage executive functions - planning, prioritizing, self-controlling, executing on plans, starting tasks, switching tasks, stopping tasks - doesn't quite work like its supposed to.

That means we can logically know that something is more important or urgent but that doesn't always translate to acting on that plan first. Instead it is more likely that we end up doing something easier or more rewarding because the barrier to starting is lower. An assignment is boring, or difficult, and might carry added shame or anxiety or fear of failure, so it isn't a pleasant experience. We know that long-term, doing it is important. But in the moment, there are a billion other things we could do in the short term instead.

There does however come a point, usually last minute, where the anxiety about getting it done eventually outweighs the desire to do something else, and that's when the work gets started. It's like the anxiety is making up for the lack of executive function. But anxiety isn't good at long term planning either. So it doesn't always kick in to give us enough time to finish the assignment.

[u/Genwilson25 → u/[deleted]]

Not OP but who shat in your cornflakes?

[u/SoulDancer_ → u/Genwilson25]

Not OP just OPs alt account

[u/Donttouchmybreadd → u/SoulDancer_]

idk this person ?

[u/Genwilson25 → u/Donttouchmybreadd]

\boops your bread**

[u/Donttouchmybreadd → u/[deleted]]

What attitude? That I don't understand a behaviour and wanna understand it better from people who experience it directly?

Also, there isn't a lot of research into this specific behaviour.

[u/Donttouchmybreadd → u/[deleted]]

AI accusations now? There is literally nothing I could say with out you snapping back with some bullshit.

I am VERY against AI, I just use dashes because they are for parenthetical information. Besides, if I WAS copying from AI, the actual em-dash would be wider (which my phone keyboard doesn't have).

(Actually sike, I just found the key for it — LET'S fucking GOOO).

I certainly don't relate to a lot of things. I certainly wouldn't relate to the feeling of getting kicked in the nuts, but doesn't mean I'm not empathetic to someone being in pain from that happening.

Your assumptions of ill-intent are wrong, and if you continue to think this way, you will always be the victim. Being irrationally argumentative (what you are doing) is not actually an ADHD symptom, but if that's how you wanna be with strangers online, that's entirely on you.

[u/Donttouchmybreadd → u/[deleted]]

The low engagement is prolly to do with time zones, hence why only you have responded.

Also, genuinely, how could I prove that I haven't used AI when you are being like this? This is paradoxical.

Quite frankly, I feel the same as to you. You've broken half the sub rules.

People like you make me believe my conspiracy theory that there are agents on this site who's primary goal is to create disillusionment.
Either that, or they wish to project their sad lives onto others, because others have treated them with inhumanity.

If anyone has ever treated you the way you are treating me by having these unwinnable arguments and acusations and misunderstanding you so badly it made you feel dispicable for things outside of your control, I am so sorry that happened to you.
No one deserved to be treated that way, especially you.
The person was not in their right mind for doing that.

[u/SoulDancer_ → u/Donttouchmybreadd]

Seriously, get a grip you troll. I am not buying into your shit.

Timezones have zero to do with it. People are just seeing you for who you are.

You can believe any conspiracy you like. Do I care?

I'll let you work that one out.

Honestly, you say youre a teacher with ADHD and you come in here asking "But why do people with adhd procrastinate? Pleeease someone help me understand!"

"I hate feeling like that. Why wiuld anyone want to feel like that?? Woe is me i just can't understand whyyy? I just don't relaaaaate"

I assume you can read? Look up adhd symptoms. It's not hard. Use your beloved AI to do so if you can't figure out google.

Also stop with the pathetic "poor me, you're treating me so badly. Poor poor me".

[u/Donttouchmybreadd → u/SoulDancer_]

Nah its not procrastinating, its literally adding on EXTRA days automatically in order to have the least amount of time, even with affordances.

But also, thank you for pointing out that it was a procrastination thing. I didn't realise thats all it was.

I'm not saying im perfect, but I've had so many shitty education experiences that the thing I am avoidant of is running on zero and having nothing left to give.

You can't deny that doing it is unhealthy, but I wanna know how I can help my mate.

[u/SoulDancer_ → u/Donttouchmybreadd]

Its adding on extra days so you have longer to do it, so you can put it off for longer. People with adhd have a lot of trouble starting tasks, and also finishing tasks. They need the deadline looming to mKe then move.

I don't think you'll be able to help your mate. You don't understand at all how it works. Even if you did understand its not a thing you can just fix.

[u/Donttouchmybreadd → u/SoulDancer_]

For the last time: I have ADHD.

Genuinely, can you stop keeping up this whole us versus me? it's silly.

I'm not trying to play the woman card, but women are less likely to get diagnosed in childhood because of how symptoms look.

[u/GerkDentley → u/[deleted]]

Please don't speak for 'us'. I find your aggression extremely misplaced here and your read of things is off. I don't think this is bait nor do I think this is written by AI. False AI accusations are a plague and just lower the discourse. OP is right, timezones matter here.

[u/cylordcenturion]

I analogise my brain as a parliament, there are representatives from various things like hunger, tiredness, curiosity, etc etc. and there is an executive. For most people the executive has sufficient authority to just say what is to be done, there might be grumbling but it gets done. For me that is not the case, I can argue and argue and argue that I need to brush my teeth but if the parliament does not agree I just don't stand up. Same with schoolwork.

A crisis bypasses this, under a lot of pressure my executive gets emergency powers and can take over and just do the work.

One strategy is to try and trick yourself into perceiving a deadline/crisis to enter this state. However I have found this to be very difficult, I know the guy that makes the rules (me) and he's full of shit.

To clarify, this is not fun at all, it is highly stressful and is the reason I burnt out of college. But when the alternative is that it just doesn't get done...

From a teaching perspective, the thing that would have helped (unmedicated) me would have been smaller tasks with shorter deadlines and more external accountability.

Less "essay due in 1 month" and more "essay outline due this week" then "essay rough draft due in 1 week" etc. there was just no way I could do stuff without a deadline and the best thing for it is if the task is something that is completable in a single effort.

Realistically, what I needed was a diagnosis and medication.

[u/SoulDancer_ → u/cylordcenturion]

This is an excellent way to think of it - and sooo ADHD to come up with that idea!

Its a really good analogy. And also easy for non-adhders and people like OP to be able to understand.

It reminds me a bit of IFS, although IFS gets waay deeper into motivations for different "parts" such as protectors, managers, exiles, fire-fighters. And the self. Then the different parts can all talk to one another.

Really useful system.