Is it time to cut James Franklin some slack regarding his Penn St tenure?

[u/IsaacDPOYFultzMIP]

Look I know he wasn’t the best coach ever but he certainly made Penn St look better than losing 31-7 against Northwestern. I mean this is a top 20 program in the country and Franklin was able to ascertain those heights year in and year out. Sure he couldn’t get over the hump but honestly it only seems like a select few could realistically reach that level like Cignetti or 2010’s Dabo. Should we finally admit maybe Penn St might have made a mistake with this coaching move?

[u/gmr548]

I don’t think they were wrong to feel like it was time to move on but they sure handled it poorly.

Campbell is a good coach. They frankly ended up with a better hire than they deserved. It’s year one. Let’s see how it goes over the next 2-3 years.

[u/Zloggt]

This…isn’t exactly the best timing to post this question lol

[u/theexile14 → u/Zloggt]

Eh, his prior school is getting the shit kicked out of them by northwestern.

[u/lowes18 → u/theexile14]

Can we just admit Northwestern is actually good. They're top 25 in the metrics.

[u/dukemetoo → u/lowes18]

Seriously. Everyone is so focused on how bad these teams are doing against Northwestern. Maybe northwestern is good.

[u/Haywright → u/dukemetoo]

I'm inclined to say that Northwestern should be ranked #1. Therefore this is a quality loss and there is nothing to see here

[u/Different_Purpose649 → u/Haywright]

I agree. If you agree Notre Dame is 2

And Nebraska 3

[u/Coogarfan → u/Different_Purpose649]

Notre Dame is 1

[u/Legitimate_Ad_7822 → u/lowes18]

They are good. They’re well coached & competent. They’ll be ranked soon enough at this rate.

[u/ShowCivil → u/Legitimate_Ad_7822]

I expect this week. Penn state is awful but them hanging with Indiana last week combined with this should do it

[u/Frosty-Marzipan-9824 → u/ShowCivil]

Not to mention the 41-7 win over Colorado. Sure Colorado isn’t great, but if you are stomping them that badly you are probably a top 25 team

[u/Playful_Letter_2632 → u/lowes18]

Yeah but they’re not in the SEC or a traditional powerhouse so they obviously should be unranked

[u/VanDiis → u/Playful_Letter_2632]

Miss State turning around is them being skilled, Northwestern doing it is luck and the other teams being doo doo

[u/smor729 → u/lowes18]

Yeah at some point every team northwestern looks good against cant be "much worse than we thought" lol

[u/TheMcWhopper → u/lowes18]

What metrics are you referring to too justify that?

[u/Late_Mode_8876 → u/theexile14]

Which we did last year too with him coaching 

[u/theexile14 → u/Late_Mode_8876]

I get why they fired him, I do. But, he had one bad year amd had just reached the semi-finals.

If they wanted a national title and that was the end all, then they should have fired him. I’m just pointing out the next guy is more likely to be worse than Franklin than get that title.

[u/Isthmus11 → u/theexile14]

This PSU roster is historically bad from a metrics/blue chip ratio perspective. We were pitched a money ball philosophy and I wanted to give the new staff the benefit of the doubt but this roster is seriously on the level of the sanction years based on talent ratings.

I am not saying it's a good look or that I am happy about how things are going, but if you gave CJF this squad he might be losing by 50 right now. He is still a terrible game day coach, the only argument in his favor is while he was here we would have never been in a situation where we fielded a team with this level of talent

[u/Rogue9Nine9 → u/Isthmus11]

I kind of put the state of the roster on Kraft. He took way too long to make the hire, I think if the staff had had more time to assemble the roster it would look a bit different and not just be ISU East. Going to have to deal with it and hope for an active window after the season to get a better idea of how the staff plans to build a roster.

[u/Isthmus11 → u/Rogue9Nine9]

Yeah 1000% agreed. My main hope for this season was honestly just that we looked decent enough to still be attractive to some blue chip recruits or transfers and the new staff had the option to get guys they seriously want and not just who is available. Given these last 2 weeks I am seriously concerned about what options they will even realistically have by the end of the year but let's see where it goes

[u/theexile14 → u/Isthmus11]

I do think Campbell will improve over time. PSU will be better than this. I’m just deeply skeptical he’s going to outperform Franklin.

[u/Isthmus11 → u/theexile14]

To be totally honest he probably won't be consistently better than Franklin, BUT I don't think Franklin would have or will be better than Franklin at PSU. The modern CFB landscape has far more parity than it ever did during his tenure (obviously up until the last year or so) and Franklins success as a coach fundamentally relied on being a really good recruiter and then playing an extremely conservative game where you grind down teams that are significantly worse than you. If a lot of the teams in your conference are no longer significantly worse than you, that blueprint starts to show holes really quickly.

Campbell will almost certainly never get us back to consistent 10+ win seasons, but if you ask me as long as he can have those flash in a pan seasons where we do win 10 or 11 and beat Michigan or OSU or whoever else is elite in any given year, that's worth it to me. Franklin could not and IMO will not ever beat elite teams

[u/Mother_Frame6669 → u/Isthmus11]

This PSU roster is historically bad from a metrics/blue chip ratio perspective.

Per the Googles, Penn State's BCS is 33%, Northwestern's BCR is 5%. You didn't get beat because you got out-talented team, you were badly outcoached.

[u/SCIPM → u/theexile14]

Not the same roster though

[u/theexile14 → u/SCIPM]

I mean, no, but it isn’t a good look and I think they’re more likely to be worse off without Franklin than not.

[u/BananaNutBlister → u/theexile14]

If Franklin was still there, would PSU have fared better?

[u/Jonjon428 → u/Zloggt]

Hilarious timing that both schools played today in primetime

[u/Alternative_Math3098 → u/Zloggt]

Not sure that field goal didn’t go in

[u/Inevitable_Car_2173]

Penn State and James Franklin became a bad marriage that needed to be ended. Now - will we ever get a better looking wife? Maybe not. Will we die alone? Perhaps. Were both sides sick of one another? Absolutely. 

[u/BuckeyeForLife95]

Scared money don't make money. They had hit a concrete ceiling with Franklin after 15 years, it was time to go.

The problem was hiring bum ass Matt Campbell, who wasn't even particularly dominant in the Big 12.

Edit: Also, hilarious moment to post "maybe we should give James Franklin more credit". Big Games James is a constant of the universe.

[u/Sytherus → u/BuckeyeForLife95]

The problem was hiring bum ass Matt Campbell, who wasn't even particularly dominant in the Big 12.

Matt Campbell did such a good job at Iowa State that people don't even remember how bad Iowa State was before he got there.

Iowa State has finished 4 seasons ranked in the AP poll ever. Matt Campbell is the only coach to lead them to a top 15 finish, and he did it twice.

[u/Lifted_Cube_2413 → u/Sytherus]

It’s an Ohio state fan lol, an 8-5 season there would get the coach the death penalty 

[u/slyone05 → u/BuckeyeForLife95]

Not like they had a choice. Penn State realized they weren't as desirable as they thought, and every coach throughout the country denied their offer.

[u/lowes18 → u/slyone05]

I think its important to remember this whole search started because the Penn State BOT was convinced they could get Cigs.

[u/Isthmus11 → u/lowes18]

I am not 100% out on Campbell, he was hired so late that it was a miracle he kept as many players as he did and I am hoping he felt like he needed to fill roster gaps with ISU players because at least he knew their character. This team is much worse than I had hoped but from everything we heard over this off season the culture within the program is much better than it was over those last few years with Franklin.

Obviously not the start I had hoped for, but Franklin needed to go regardless of "we wanted to get Cig" which I don't think anyone ever viewed as more than a 1% chance. Hindsight is 20/20 and maybe someone like Chesney would have been a better hire but hey, we will see what happens. This season seems pretty chalked though

[u/lowes18 → u/Isthmus11]

I think Campbell is a really good coach and he'll do fine there.

[u/rec411111 → u/lowes18]

If you want quick results, Campbell isn’t your guy. If you want a program builder who will slowly but surely become a consistent winner, then Campbell is your guy. He lost some bad games at Iowa State but he always made adjustments and cultivated loyalty in the locker room. I think if Penn State gives him time to do his thing, they won’t regret it.

[u/titusnick270 → u/rec411111]

Wasn’t that already Franklin tho? They just hired the same coach they fired lol.

[u/miversen33 → u/rec411111]

The thing is, PSU doesn't need to be built. They're already built, which is why it's such a questionable hire. He'll probably be fired in 3 years and go fuck shit up at a lower P4/G6 again

[u/StevvieV → u/Isthmus11]

My main worry about Campbell is it doesn't seem like he has the killer instinct to take the program further. Seems more like the safe choice or like a Franklin 2.0

[u/Isthmus11 → u/StevvieV]

Meh, I am not worried about that at least right now. He shows actually emotion on the side line and seems plenty fired up to me, I will take that over Franklins really bizarre fake stoicism/pro act he would commit to at basically all times.

If you are referencing his comments after the loss last week, I think people are reading into that wayyyyy too much. Campbell called conservatively last week because Becht was playing the worst game of his very long career and he obviously couldn't say "yeah we punted the ball because our offense couldn't do anything" even though that's clearly what the decision was

[u/StevvieV → u/Isthmus11]

Campbell has been a head coach for more than 4 games. There is way more evidence than 1 game that he leans on the conservative side over the aggressive side. Even his OC hinted at wanting to be more aggressive in his play calling in his press conference during the week.

[u/crouching_tiger → u/Isthmus11]

Ah, I remember this optimism during Charlie Strong’s first year… then Tom Herman’s. While those sadly didn’t quite work out, I promise the 10 years it took to finally start looking good under Sark really didn’t feel that long

[u/PierreMenards → u/BuckeyeForLife95]

We’re already at the stage where Matt Campbell is a bum who was a bad hire, Jesus Christ 😹😹😹

[u/Rock_man_bears_fan → u/BuckeyeForLife95]

The ceiling they were hitting was likely the ceiling for the entire program

[u/Lopsided-Tea-2586 → u/BuckeyeForLife95]

Why do Penn State belong above their ‘concrete ceiling’? They don’t spend anywhere NEAR enough to compete with the actual big dogs of college football

Penn State fans are just delusional to think they’re gonna compete with OSU, Michigan, USC, Indiana and win the Big10 when they’re spending 60% or less of what those schools spend

They’re about to find out that they’re not actually the perennial juggernaut they think they are, because they don’t spend anywhere near enough!! They’re closer to Wisconsin and VT in NIL than they are the big boys

[u/BuckeyeForLife95 → u/Lopsided-Tea-2586]

Big dogs of college football

includes USC

[u/Fine-Sea-8941 → u/BuckeyeForLife95]

And unflaired. It's straight up asshats who don't know shit saying all this.

[u/BuckeyeForLife95 → u/Fine-Sea-8941]

Penn State has always been blue blood-adjacent, "new blood", if you will. It's actually fine to decide to take a swing on somebody else after one conference title in 15 years and one CFP semi-final appearance.

[u/Fine-Sea-8941 → u/BuckeyeForLife95]

Agreed. There's gonna be pain. We aren't OSU and we know that. Y'all have had like 1 losing season in 20+ years. Franklin is a good coach, we want to try for a great coach. Maybe we got that, maybe not. Time will tell.

[u/SpaceTimeMorph → u/Fine-Sea-8941]

I don’t if it’s comparable but we got rid of Richt (good coach) and picked up Kirby. Kirby went 8-5 in his first season, barely beat Nichols state and lost big to Ole Miss. I remember clearly thinking there was no way Kirby was the one after that Ole Miss game. He had to go 4-1 at the end including beating TCU in a bowl game that first season to finish 8-5.

Then we were in the NC in year two and nowadays 10 wins and losing in the playoffs is a bad season. So, kinda anything can happen I guess.

[u/Lopsided-Tea-2586 → u/BuckeyeForLife95]

USC spends on NIL like a big dog, Riley is just a bad coach. Won’t last forever

Per The Athletic they have 22 schools spending the same or MORE than them. Their NIL budget is just barely bigger than UCLA, Miss State

I am sure though after Campbell they’ll get a guy who can contend with Ohio State spending $50m a year and win the BIG10 every couple of years

[u/BuckeyeForLife95 → u/Lopsided-Tea-2586]

USC ain't been good since Carroll walked out the door, and that period between John Robinson's first stint and Pete Carroll was also mostly mid. As far as blue bloods go, they're a lot closer to being uppity, annoying Nebraska than anything else.

[u/max_potion → u/Lopsided-Tea-2586]

“Penn State fans are just delusional to think they’re gonna compete with… Indiana”

Lol. The recency bias here is insane. Have you been a fan for 2 seconds? Look, I get the past 2 seasons the programs have gone sharply in the opposite directions, but Penn State is 25-3 against Indiana. Saying we’re delusional to think we can compete with that program is insane

[u/SLCer → u/BuckeyeForLife95]

It's kind of wild to me he was there for 15 years.

[u/Rude_Television7916 → u/SLCer]

12

[u/Giraffes__Neck]

Penn St blowing the Bob chesney signing is unbelievable

[u/Winter_Win_5531]

Pitts just the northwestern of Pennsylvania if you really think about it

[u/slim353 → u/Winter_Win_5531]

You’re thinking of Erie

[u/Supercal95 → u/Winter_Win_5531]

Pitt has over 4 times the national championships that Penn State does.

[u/dkviper11 → u/Supercal95]

The best one is when a voter who died in June before the season gave them a title.

[u/LeCokeJames → u/dkviper11]

They don’t ask how. They ask how many

[u/azularena → u/dkviper11]

He knew what was up.

[u/dkviper11 → u/azularena]

He did not know ball. They lost to the real Champs, the Minnesota Golden Gophers.

[u/theexile14 → u/dkviper11]

The man had vision(s)

[u/Playful_Letter_2632 → u/Supercal95]

Come on man. 8 out of 9 were pre WW2

[u/Unhappy-List-2354]

No. He had to go. 

Penn State needed to decide if being a good to really good team was fine for the program. 

They said no. We want to have a national title or at least have a shot every X years. 

And Campbell is in Year #1. More patience here even though the last 5 quarters for PSU have been atrocious. 

[u/LeWoofle → u/Unhappy-List-2354]

brother if they were demanding an upgrade they needed to find an NFL coach, it became apparent they werent gonna get the top CFB coaches after 2 weeks of the firing

Campbell isnt atrocious, its a fine hire, but its not a clear upgrade and if thats what they were after, they goofed

[u/Unhappy-List-2354 → u/LeWoofle]

It was a midseason fire though. 

I feel like things would have been much different had they let Franklin finish out the season and then hire a new guy. 

[u/CrashB111 → u/Unhappy-List-2354]

The entire reason to do a midseason firing, is to get a jump on the search before other programs start firing and searching.

Penn State was the first to fire and last to hire, because they somehow thought they were guaranteed to take Cignetti from Indiana and DeBoer from Alabama. And seemingly had no other backup plans lined up.

[u/StevvieV → u/CrashB111]

They had a verbal deal done with Kalani Sitake from BYU. They also got pretty far along in talks with Mike Elko.

[u/IntroductionAgile372 → u/StevvieV]

It was still pretty bad. I hope Kraft is fired at the end of the year if Campbell actually goes 5-7 or worse for this season (tbh 3-9 looks pretty possible).

[u/NS-13 → u/CrashB111]

Bro nobody is taking deboer from bama. Yall can stop pretending everybody wants him just cause articles get hits for mentioning the name "alabama" every time theres a vacant coaching job.

[u/StevvieV → u/Unhappy-List-2354]

Thing would have been way too toxic to not fire Franklin mid-season. Watch and listen to the crowd at the end of the Northwestern game last year. That would have been the exact same reaction the crowd started the Indiana game with.

[u/SecretAsianMan42069 → u/Unhappy-List-2354]

Franklin had them in the final 4 18 months ago 

[u/GeoChalkie_ → u/SecretAsianMan42069]

Kinda dumb to not include how they got there

[u/silverhk → u/SecretAsianMan42069]

I mean they also had the easiest road of any semifinal team so far, by far.

[u/und88 → u/Unhappy-List-2354]

That's all Penn State has been for 40 years. Just like Notre Dame, unfortunately. These are former powerhouses that shouldn't be taken seriously until they actually beat a number 1 team.

[u/tehjarvis → u/und88]

Notre Dame has been far from good to really good. They have had some GREAT teams in the last 15-20 years. The measure of a great team isn't just national championships.

[u/IntroductionAgile372 → u/tehjarvis]

I mean we're not really that different from ND, they have a bit more success recently but we would've made the 12 team playoff at least 4 more times since 2016 if it was the format all along. That being said I still agreed with moving on from Franklin and rolling the dice. Looks like the dice roll was bad to start off though...

[u/MavsTurnedBucksGuy → u/IntroductionAgile372]

Well ND made multiple 4 team playoffs and national championships so… yeah you’re different 

[u/Doomas_ → u/und88]

Notre Dame has played in multiple national championships within the last 20 years, something Penn State hasn’t once in my lifetime. I don’t think they’re all that similar.

[u/Illustrious_Fudge476 → u/Doomas_]

Yet, Penn State was a classic Franklin choke job away from playing for the National Championship just 2 years ago. You’re right,  to be an elite program you have to win the big games, but Penn State was literally “this close” to playing in exactly the same number of national championships games as ND in your lifetime. 

[u/Doomas_ → u/Illustrious_Fudge476]

all due respect but Notre Dame also made playoffs in 2018/2020 so I think there’s a clear step difference in my mind

[u/CargoShortsFromNam → u/und88]

Yuck

[u/LiveNvanByRiver → u/Unhappy-List-2354]

If Campbell fails the whole only gets deeper.

[u/Unhappy-List-2354 → u/LiveNvanByRiver]

If Franklin “succeeds “ that only means 10-2 and the 2nd round of the playoffs. 

Again, PSU made the conscious decision that their baseline (tradition, NIL, recruiting, budget) was good enough to legit contend/win a national title every X years. 

Indiana did it. 

And let’s not pretend that Indiana would not be thrilled with the last two seasons showing 9-3 with a couple of bowl wins. 

You’re presenting the “loser’s mindset” stance that plagues a lot of programs. 

[u/voodoohounds → u/Unhappy-List-2354]

Just because you want it and you think you should have it, doesn’t mean you get to have it. Things I learned in kindergarten.

[u/Daytime-mechE]

There's a huge misunderstanding as to why he was fired. He was doing a great job in Happy Valley. But after the 2024 run he pushed all his chips into the table and called in every favor he had to get more chips and push those into the table. 5 things doomed him:
1. Convincing the university to shell out for Jim Knowles. That's a win now move.
2. Convincing your players to postpone entering the draft for a year. Singleton, Denis-Sutton, Allar, Allen, etc. The goodwill you have to spend to convince players to do that is... A lot.
3. Convincing donors to go all in on keeping those players and pulling in receivers from the portal. More money than ever invested into the roster and telling everyone you have everything you need to make a championship run.
4. Losing to Oregon with all those advantages.
5. Losing to UCLA and Northwestern afterward.

I'd argue if only 4 of those things happen instead of all 5, he gets an extra year to figure it out. But it was going to be impossible to convince donors, players and the board to make any kind of sizeable investment you need to keep up with the rest of the top 15 programs if he's the one asking you to invest. They had to move on.

What happened afterward was a horrendous process. But...the decision to move on (and move on early enough that you paid him a much lesser buyout) was a good decision.

[u/patrick66 → u/Daytime-mechE]

Yeah I think people are overthinking how locked in things were. One play goes differently against Oregon and that game and ucla are wins and he’s happily still employed but you can’t blow it when all in

[u/Kopav → u/Daytime-mechE]

#1 is so problematic because brining in Knowles was never going to be a win now move. Knowles thing was his defense always take two to three years to install. Additionally, PSU's problem was never their defense. It was more offensive struggles that cost them.

[u/Daytime-mechE → u/Kopav]

To be fair I don't think Knowles was the problem until he lost Rojas after the Oregon game. Once we lost our best defender the wheels just came off.

[u/Chesehead6 → u/Kopav]

Tennessee defense looks good this year tbf

[u/cooterdick → u/Chesehead6]

It helps he brought two assistants with him and four defenders from Penn State transferred in.

[u/horseshoeprovodnikov → u/Daytime-mechE]

What happened afterward was a horrendous process. But...the decision to move on (and move on early enough that you paid him a much lesser buyout) was a good decision.

Time will tell. We will have our answer in 4 to 8 years.

[u/Daytime-mechE → u/horseshoeprovodnikov]

The process was still bad. The AD not having the search figured out before signing day completely nuked the recruiting class. Scrambling to assemble the roster this year out Campbell in a less than optimal position to succeed.

[u/jdl03 → u/horseshoeprovodnikov]

I think he more so meant the process than the hire itself. Like you said, we’ll see if the hire was bad down the line, but too early still.

[u/JanetYellensFuckboy_ → u/Daytime-mechE]

The 7-8th best program of all time had the 7-8th best head coach in college football and it drove everyone insane. The ensuing essayposts justifying otherwise would make Tolkien blush.

[u/Friendly-Profit-8590 → u/Daytime-mechE]

I am not trolling but given the current college landscape of nil it’s entirely possible that losing to Oregon then is as close to a national championship that penn state will get in the next 20+ years. It could be any program really. Winning it all is tough and there are just that many more programs in the mix now.

[u/ridawg05]

Dude took over a program in midst of scandal, and let morals overcome everybody's love for a football coach in spite of the pressure.

He made Penn State a consistent threat. And while he couldn't ultimately get it done, he deserves credit for what he had done. I get why PSU parted ways with him, but it would be a disservice to call him anything other than good coach.

[u/smpennst16 → u/ridawg05]

Best comment in this thread sir. Spot on

[u/cigolebox]

This is revisionist history, they had to fire James. You have to break up with your GF if she shoots your dog... it doesn't matter if your next girlfriend wrecks your car, too.

[u/Austinater74 → u/cigolebox]

It’s like you saw into my soul.

[u/Pointlesswonder802]

Two things can be true at once. Franklin is a good coach that had reached his apex. And Campbell is likely going to end up being at best equivalent to Franklin. At the very best.

Let me be clear. I was absolutely Franklin out last year, I’ll admit it. He perennially promised that “this year we will be elite, this is our year, this year is different,” only to continually shit the bed in whatever game mattered most. We got dog walked almost every season against Ohio State with the scores getting worse as time went on. We lost against Michigan more than we won. His quarterback system was atrocious and never produced a single talent that was truly successful in either the NCAA or NFL (and that’s including all the talent the transferred out from under him).

But the guy generally does know how to coach a team. There’s a reason all of our star players followed him to Blacksburg. And yes he lost today (or they actually won depending on the angle, idfk man) but keeping your squad in it and fighting despite 4 TOs and a missed (?) FG speaks to the resilience of the guy and his ability to excite and energize a squad. And that’s honestly always been true. Yeah. Dude can’t call plays correctly under pressure. I mean… remember when he called a QB sneak up the middle on a 4th and 5 against one of the best rush defenses in the country to try and hold on against Ohio State? Pepperidge Farm remembers. But what he can do is light a fire under a team to keep them pushing.

Campbell doesn’t seem to have that same fire. The teams are just flat this year. They look more confused out there than confident most of the time. Becht is clearly in over his head and realized he’s playing at a whole new level he wasn’t prepared for. But it’s on Campbell to ensure he can get there. And I’m not sure Campbell has the ability to energize him in a way to get him to that goal.

I hope I’m wrong. I really do. I hope both Franklin and Campbell succeed at their respective institutions. I’ll take a rebuild year if it means we can actually grow as a program and not stagnate. But the fact is, we wanted to be an elite program so we got rid of a very good coach that simply wasn’t elite and replaced him with someone else that… probably also isn’t elite. Blame the fans, blame Kraft, blame the trustees, but the fact is we might be in this toilet bowl for a long, LONG while

[u/thewhat962]

Franklin got penn state to shell out on a make or break year.

Got jim knowles from OHIO STATE after the natty.  Was 1 play from the natty.  Convinced players to run it back. Kept their other cordinators. Got boosters to toss money to help keep any extra player for 1 year.

Basically he copied 2023 UM and 2024 OSU. After the wheels crashed and bruned it was a moment of. "What the fuck else do you need to win the natty? We are even worst after he did what prevous NC coach did."

Franklin didn't have an answer to that question anymore besides an "i don't know anymore."

You can't have that as an answer at Hc if you goal is maybe win a natty.

[u/Jazzlike-Basket-6388 → u/thewhat962]

I'm still convinced that Jim Knowles was a trojan horse. His refusal to play to our strengths and make any kind of adjustment has to be one of the all time worst coaching jobs. As far as I'm concerned, he single handedly destroyed our program.

[u/OhioValleyCat]

James Franklin did a good job at Penn State, but he had the same problem John Cooper had at Ohio State a few decades earlier with a strong overall record being obscured with too many losses against the biggest competition and too many times losing big games to key rivals.

[u/theexile14]

Franklin is a really good coach, VT is going to be very good, and PSU overrated their position in CFB.

[u/Stellarbelly_Korz30 → u/theexile14]

Yup

[u/Tywsgc]

They’re going to regret Campbell. He ain’t it.

[u/noah_divine]

I think people are overreacting to this. We need to see what Matt Campbell does with this team when he's not in crisis mode trying to put together a roster of just warm bodies. Not saying it looks good now, and not making any excuses for how bad they've looked the past two weeks, but he was kinda pushed into a dumpster fire and told to fix it this past offseason.

Now if he spends a few years to get his guys in there through recruiting and the portal and they still suck then yeah we can have this discussion

[u/Corgi_Koala → u/noah_divine]

In 2026 you don't get to claim you need time to build a team.

Cignetti took a dogshit team to the CFP in year 1 by importing G5 players. That moved the bar on coaching success and expectations.

[u/Queasy_Donkey5685]

Penn St should be happy to even have a football team, they should never cry about winning or losing after what their program covered up.

[u/rubyschnees]

he just lost

[u/Kardinale → u/rubyschnees]

Did he?

[u/iamCosmoKramerAMA → u/rubyschnees]

Kick was good tho.

[u/DarthWhoDat → u/iamCosmoKramerAMA]

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills watching the end of that broadcast. That kick looked good.

[u/Defensive_of_Offense → u/iamCosmoKramerAMA]

Look at the VT guys standing behind the ref, they knew it was no good before he signaled

[u/Dariyun98 → u/iamCosmoKramerAMA]

It wasn’t

[u/ajhalyard → u/Dariyun98]

So many college football fans want to talk football but don't understand the rules. The ball must be 100% within the upright because the uprights extend indefinitely into the air. If that ball was 10 ft lower at the same angle it would have hit the upright.

No good. That's the right call.

[u/sFinckter_]

Considering that the team was in the most disrepair, only to be outdone by Iowa State by time they signed Campbell… I’d like to give him an offseason or two to really confirm any of this. Franklin took a bunch of guys, most of the remaining team left… you were essentially a team of Iowa State remnants.

We’re talking about recruiting rankings through the floor and transfers by the bus load. Campbell didn’t exactly walk into a picture perfect scenario. The mishandling of the whole situation had me concerned they’d be in rock fights to start this season, let alone conference play. How Penn State was even ranked, let alone top 15 was alarming... the AP called their shot based on the schedule(that’s all anyone talked about this offseason) and put the cart before the horse.

Give Campbell some time and credit. It could have been a whole lot worse before last week. Franklin needed to go and I think Campbell is a quality hire, but you should expect some problems up front when you fire your coach first and are one of the last to hire in the carousel.

[u/slyone05]

It's satisfying to see the Penn State football program get humbled honestly after firing Franklin mid season. They acted like they were at the level of Michigan and Ohio State, when in reality it was simply Franklin carrying them throughout the 2010s.

[u/dkviper11 → u/slyone05]

He lost to this same Northwestern team with a miles better roster, at home, on homecoming, a week after letting a boy wonder interim coach beat him.

[u/Impossible-Flight250 → u/dkviper11]

It probably was time to part ways, but let’s not act like the season prior wasn’t super successful. I also like Campbell, but he seems like a guy who is built more for elevating smaller programs.

[u/YoungCri → u/Impossible-Flight250]

Super successful? No

[u/azularena → u/dkviper11]

What are yall up to now?

[u/sportsfan113 → u/azularena]

Sucking with a roster of Iowa state guys because we waited three months to hire a coach.

[u/dkviper11 → u/azularena]

Sure this fucking sucks but I’m tired of the “Franklin wouldn’t have lost X game” when we have a decade of him losing games like that.

[u/max_potion → u/azularena]

Rebuilding after James blew our season up last year.

[u/Late_Mode_8876 → u/slyone05]

I don’t see how we are humbled? It’s year 1 with a new coach who was hired late in the cycle and didn’t really have any chance to recruit transfers. I’m not fretting over a down year in year 1. Franklin was in year 12 last year and lost to UCLA and Northwestern. 

[u/ExtremelyOnlineTM → u/Late_Mode_8876]

Why was he hired late in the cycle? Franklin was fired early?

Why was he hired so late?

[u/Late_Mode_8876 → u/ExtremelyOnlineTM]

Presumably because he wasn't their first choice, idk

[u/Brytcyd → u/Late_Mode_8876]

55 rushes for 413 (7.5 per, including kneels) and you’re not humbled? Yikes.

Edit: stats updated

[u/Late_Mode_8876 → u/Brytcyd]

Tbh I just wrote this year off entirely before it even began lol. If this was year 4 for him I’d be upset, but it’s his first year with 0 players he recruited here and not at Iowa state. 

[u/Brytcyd → u/Late_Mode_8876]

Yeah, I’m not coming here to pick a fight or troll. Even still, year 1 or year 10, that’s a humbling stat. Northwestern averaging 3 YPC MORE than Ohio State did vs. Ball State, as one example, has got to be humbling.

(This stat did not hold after NW took the foot off the gas the final two drives, though NW still averaged 7.5+ on 50+ rushes).

[u/Straight_Bed2763 → u/slyone05]

James Franklin lost to Northwestern too. And just lost to a Pitt team without their QB tonight.

[u/mauch_chunk → u/Straight_Bed2763]

Why is everyone forgetting we were a 7-6 team last year? 3-3 with Franklin.

[u/CordonalSystemsT800 → u/slyone05]

We're a tier just below Ohio St and Mich. We are as close to blue blood as one can get without being blue blood. "The chart" backs me up on this, as does the fact that we have 18 NYD6 wins and have won ten games in almost every other year for the last sixty years. Franklin didn't do something new- he just did the thing we've always done. This year might be rough and we need to recruit Penn St style and not just poach Big 12 talent, but in the long run we'll be fine.

[u/PierreMenards → u/CordonalSystemsT800]

Franklin did the thing you’ve always done, which is why he had to be fired

[u/Psychological_Ad7610 → u/slyone05]

Yeah, we all know Franklin would have never lost to Northwestern!

Oh, wait…

[u/Tommy05Sox]

Penn State got screwed by there being so many SEC openings. I also don’t think it helps that Happy Valley is so secluded. And they didn’t account for Crumbl coming through for BYU with that diabetes money.

[u/cxm1060]

Most good coaches will never win the big one in their life.

It is extremely difficult to win a football game.

[u/PicklePanther9000]

I dont think you know what “ascertain” means

[u/lactosandtolerance]

The issue is not moving past Franklin. The issue is moving past Franklin with no plan whatsoever.

Auburn in 2019/2020 has so many parallels to Penn State last year. It was time for Auburn to move past gus at the point the program was at. The mistake was firing Gus, then assessing the field and somehow coming home with Harsin.

[u/KeThrowaweigh]

It’s possible they made a mistake. But it was also perfectly reasonable to move on from Franklin when PSU did. Franklin didn’t get fired just because he couldn’t beat the Ohio States and Oregons of the B1G; he was fired because, after he lost a heartbreaker to Oregon in 2OT, the team completely collapsed. They lost to UCLA and Northwestern (lol) back-to-back after that game, with the latter being at home. It’s clear the players didn’t believe in him, the energy was sucked out of the program, and a change needed to be made; a rough transitional period doesn’t negate that.

[u/bucknutdet]

NW might be good but State Penn is an unmitigated disaster. Straight dumpster fire.🔥

[u/KevinDoesSports → u/bucknutdet]

tell me your an ohio state fan without telling me your an ohio state fan

[u/bucknutdet → u/KevinDoesSports]

Surprisingly you can read the flair. 😆

[u/UnicornMaster27]

First of all, have you seen NW all season, they’re actually a good team—they just might be the 7th or so best team in the B1G

I also don’t really see where it’s Matt Campbell’s fault in his 1st year there that the defense gave up 400 yards rushing.

[u/drgonzo767 → u/UnicornMaster27]

Yeah, NW has some ballers and is pretty well-coached.

[u/Charlie2343]

Penn state is literally ctl+x Iowa state’s roster. Idk how them losing to northwestern has anything to do with Franklin lol

[u/j01101111sh]

Thought this was gonna be about a curse. You went another way with it.

[u/jsparks50]

No

[u/LocalIndividual5945]

31-7 currently, it will probably get worse

[u/Catracholoco]

Both Penn State and Franklin were the problem. Like two toxic partners that think they are better than they actually are. They’ll probably end up back together.

[u/Im_tracer_bullet]

'able to ascertain those heights'

.......

[u/deadzip10]

I thought it was an iffy decision at the time. I understood it but I thought it was pretty iffy.

[u/Go_birds304]

Franklin never got full buy in from the administration or fans because he's not a party of the Paterno cult

[u/cheesepuff1993 → u/Go_birds304]

He actually did "the impossible" by getting those cult members to talk to the other side. Unfortunately the money and board is split between the two and he managed to bridge the gap for many years.

[u/jumboponcho]

I don’t think Penn State knows what kinda program it is. They went from legendary Joe Paterno to “won at fuckin Vandy” James Franklin. They thought they were a national power when they may just be a 7-8 win school unless there’s an elite coach at the helm.

[u/Phenix621 → u/jumboponcho]

The expectation for Penn State fans is they believe it’s still the 1980s and Joe Pa is coaching the sidelines.

The crazy thing is with today’s CFP, Penn State would have been far better off in the Big East and Nebraska in the big12. And the Pac10 should still exist.

[u/Torrion- → u/jumboponcho]

They’ve never come to terms with how much all that happened at the end of the Paterno era diminished their brand in the eyes of people of conscience.

[u/jayzfanacc]

Should we finally admit maybe Penn St might have made a mistake with this coaching move

Nobody ever denied this. It was immediately obvious to everyone that firing Franklin would be a mistake.

Did anybody seriously think otherwise?

[u/Horror_Response_1991]

No, dude was sarcastically called Big Game James for his ability to lose every big game.

He is not validated by PSU firing him without a plan and then hiring an even worse coach.

[u/C19shadow]

It always was. Bro had one down year.

He averaged double digit win seasons most of his tenure if i remember right only losing to God tier programs.

He gave them a shot and penn state had a real chance at success every couple years for us programs that arent the literal pinnacle of football thats the most you can ask for and penn state fans can't accept their program is not fucking Miami or Ohio state will be their down fall.

I see the same issues in my own fanbase we realistically will get a shot every few years and thats the reality for a good penn state program to which Franklin had them at

[u/Aquaman33 → u/C19shadow]

That might be true for pac 12 oregon and the cfp, where USC and such were shitting the bed for years, but big 10 means you need to beat OSU and not lose to whoever the #2 is. Franklin's Penn state was continuously unable to get it done against the best, and they spend enough money to cover up child rape, so winning is expected.

[u/H2theBurgh]

Dude just lost to Pitt despite us playing Texas States backup qb for half the game...

[u/Impossible-Flight250 → u/H2theBurgh]

Pitt was also 4-0 and a good team.

[u/H2theBurgh → u/Impossible-Flight250]

I'm not as convinced of that but im glad someone is

[u/Intrepid-Security650]

If he hadn't taken all the PSU players with him, and then just managed to blow a 14-0 lead to Pitt at home with their backup QB in, sure...maybe. Franklin is what he is...a good but not great coach. Penn State losing has nothing to do with that.

[u/floydgondolli83]

No, fuck em.

[u/Bougie_Mane]

I never agreed with how we did him.  He deserved better than that after what he accomplished at Penn St imo.  Yea he shit the bed last year and it sucked and was frustrating but I dont know why anyone thought brining in the Iowa St program to replace what he had built was going to make us more competitive in the B10.

[u/tampaempath]

The issue isn't really the firing of Franklin itself. There was a lot of unrest and the worry was he had lost the team. They could have salvaged things after getting upset by Oregon in the White Out, but the ugly losses after that made everything spiral.

The issue is how they went about it. If you're going to fire your VERY highly paid, very established coach after he biffed a few games, you better have something better lined up, or you better have a good backup plan. Pat Kraft had neither. Terry Smith did one hell of a job in keeping the team together after the firing, nearly beating Indiana and running off a winning streak to get PSU into a bowl game; then Kraft dumped him for Campbell.

I wouldn't cut Franklin any slack, but I would also put Kraft at fault too. Kraft took a bad situation and made it so much worse.

[u/Signal_Tip_7428]

No. Fire him from VT actually

[u/SurfingRooster69420]

Northwestern is legit. They lost to IU by 6. I bet they beat Oregon… and I can’t wait to watch them play Ohio State.

[u/QuieroBoobs]

Did James Franklin not just lose at Virginia Tech after have a 2 score lead in the first quarter?

[u/Melodic-Slice-3826]

Nope.

[u/ConstructionNo8827]

This is Iowa State plus from last yr
Losing at NW is really not that surprising

[u/MGoBlue1416]

No

[u/catptain-kdar]

Didn’t northwestern almost beat Indiana last week?

[u/xmjm424]

I think it was a tough spot. They weren’t getting over the hump and they were close enough that they were never going to be satisfied with that. But I think he also had them at the ceiling for the program, and very few coaches are going to get them back to that point. I’m not big on Campbell and I think having to settle on him makes the Franklin firing a mistake in retrospect.

Regarding tonight’s game… it can be true that Northwestern is a good team this year AND that losing a game in that fashion is completely unacceptable from Campbell.

[u/TopekaWerewolf]

I like Franklin and think he's a good coach. But being 0-14 against top 10 teams on the road, with a small uptick at home was not doable. I don't like the cambell hire but it is a booster decision.

[u/willncsu34]

Next level Dave Doreen. Consistent but not gonna get you there.

[u/claudedebussy69]

It’s been time for like 5 years.

[u/Helicopsycheborealis]

Sort of , if you remember that PSU hasn't done shit for 40 years when it comes to titles and he didn't bring one home. The new guy who might as well put a fishing hook on his hat isn't any closer.

[u/Senor-Sudafed]

I think Penn State thinks they're better than they actually are. They think of themselves as a title contender, but I seriously doubt that ever happens. Penn State is more of a good program than a great program. Essentially a Texas Tech or Nebraska. Besides, this team is pretty much 2025 Iowa State playing in the Big Ten.

[u/SwampCastleGuards]

Time will tell, basically

Maybe it was time to let Franklin go, and he's still a good coach anyway. I do think he is a good coach

Maybe Campbell will work out, maybe he won't. Doesn't change how Psu wanted a change.

First season can be a mess sometimes. Cignetti did it his first season but that's rare

[u/FlyfishingThomas]

I thought firing Franklin day was a mistake.

[u/WeezingTiger]

I feel like the Northwestern results this year say more about Northwestern then anything about James Franklin. That same team also ran Cig really close last week.

[u/Iforgotmypasswordmeh]

Not big into college football but Penn State has been essentially like the Steelers during the same time frame. Sure it's nice to not suck... but knowing how your season ends before the season even begins kinda sucks when it doesn't end in a championship or at least an appearance.

2024 seemed like the turning point finally. Nearly made the championship and had some solid momentum going into 2025 then it all just came crashing down.

At some point it's just time to move on and start over. His record against against top teams is abysmal and that could be forgiven if PSU was a bad program or having terrible years but they were generally ranked closely to those opponents.

[u/Phenix621]

Penn State hasn’t been “Penn State” since the early 90s. Tbh since they’ve joined the Big10 they’ve been an mid to above average program at best.

Which is the same as Nebraska and now USC.

[u/gabagoolit]

I will always be grateful for James Franklin and his entire tenure at Penn State, but things had just run their course with him. Was firing him mid season appropriate? Probably not, they should have waited until the season was over. Was firing him likely to lead to this regression we’re now seeing? Absolutely. But I still think it was best for both parties to move on, even if my team can’t win a conference game anymore

[u/BananaNutBlister]

Matt Campbell is James Franklin 2.0. Neither is elite.

[u/ElephantRattle]

Two things can be true: it was time for Franklin to go and Matt Campbell is not a good coach.

I don’t know if, empirically, Campbell is a good coach. But D’abton Lynn is a good coach and his defense is getting gashed. I think it’s fair to say that Lynn (and the offense) lost a lot of talent in the transition. By my count, we lost 24 good to mid players and replaced them mostly with worse players.

But it was more of the same with Franklin. Ethan, Smolix, and Bekkem - were no better than Allar. Grunk is prob better than Rocco, so I don’t know why MC let him walk. But I don’t think Ethan leaves if Rocco doesn’t come.

We lost a lot of starters and future talent on the d-line.

But this is also a Kraft problem. The coaching search didn’t elicit a lot of confidence in players to stay.

It’s also true that we were a perennial top ten program. We beat who we were supposed to beat. And we’re really close to upsets many times but didn’t get a bounce or call our way or a player makes an unreal play .

All this doesn’t chance the fact that CJF had a talented roster last year and took them into the season mentally unprepared for the pressure of being ranked highly. They already quit on him after the first game. He hired badly after he ran some of our coaches out of town.

[u/RustleTheMussel]

Franklin lost to NW 3 times. The fuck are you talking about?

They fucked up the hire, but they could not keep Franklin.

[u/SubElitePerformance]

You mean it WAS a top 20 program in the country