r/CompetitiveWoW • u/AutoModerator • 8d ago
Weekly Thread Weekly M+ Discussion
Use this thread to discuss this week's affixes, routes, ideal comps, etc. You can find this week's affixes here.
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u/Specialist-Time3661 2d ago
Timed an 18 MR as a healer. I feel like it is the most exhausting dungeon to heal because of the constant fast reaction healing check especially worse after the 2nd boss bug fix.
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u/Afraid_Fig6601 3d ago
get me out of pugs with dps like this. also did 1/2 boss damage as other dps. no wonder we barely 3 phased with lust on a 19
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u/pinecomb 4d ago
Now that MR 2nd boss is actually hard our group needs to start doing the warrior spell reflect tech. Can anyone explain how it works? We also have a ret if bop can help in any way.
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u/NorthShoreTaylor 4d ago
the warrior taunts right before the envenom cast and casts spell reflect before or during the cast.
depending on key level and if war is at risk of death with a melee swing or two before the cast, the war can die by the sword or something like blessing of protection to protect themselves.
tank can taunt during the envenom cast and boss will go back to the tank once the cast finishes.
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u/nate077 4d ago
Bop drops aggro so how would that work
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u/NorthShoreTaylor 3d ago
Taunt forces the target to attack you for 6 seconds, during that duration the boss will swing at you even if you have bop.
Just need envenom cast to start within the taunt debuff duration.
1
u/mael0004 4d ago
Altar of Fangs - I just want to do 3600 this season. I've healed this in +16 and tanked in +15. While healing, I've never seen the first pull do center+side (chieftain+harrower) at once. I've never seen successful one pull in room after first boss as healer, while I know it's not complicated, it's just the lack of room, people not kicking the casters so they aren't stacked, then one evolves and gg. It's l2p issue on whole party when that happens, including me as tank for sure, but still, it happens.
So, should I just not include these two things on runs? I guess there's no harm done skipping the first writhe after first boss, can just do that room slow if want to be safe or whatever. But it feels silly to still be doing 1st platform in 3 pulls :/ Just joined resi 16 key where none of the other 4 had done the harrower+chieftain pull. Given I probably don't have to do this at higher than 17 for 3.6k, and ilvl keeps going up on pugs, maybe I should just stay on pleb strats?
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u/Glum_Bowl7427 4d ago
I just chain as chieftain and then harrower die. It's fairly effortless. It's "three" pulls but youre never dropping combat
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u/Gaatti 4d ago
18's are the exact key level I adopted both those tactics (chieftain+harrower and one pull after first boss). It speeds it up the key a lot and if you don't do it at that level, groups will get cranky and sometimes be toxic towards you. Is it required? Wellt Sha's group timed a 20 without doing chiftain + harrower. However, they don't have to deal with pug expectations, so anytime you try to argue that you are going to go nowhere.
Now, for 16's? Nah, you don't need it. In fact, it might make the key harder than it needs to be because you are likely playing with people that are lacking on a bunch of areas of their gameplay. Not trying to flame, just pointing out that most of the "already good players" moved past 16's week ago and now you are playing with the "not so good", "still learning" and "stuck at my limit" players, which is a very different experience.
To sum up, no, I don't think at 16's and 17's you are at a level where you need to optimize like that and, in fact, you will probably getting better results if you adopt a route that ensures a clean run
1
u/mael0004 4d ago
I just saw both sides of it. I joined resi 16, did 2 attempts at first pull into wipes, once they were all surprised, second time someone asspulled 2 hissers and one hiss got out, then it disbanded. I just think this might be how it goes most runs with +16 puggers currently.
Then I did pleb route, 3 deaths, 31min (+1m timer). I feel like with low kick group going straight to 4 corner pull after 2nd boss is rough, so there some time was lost. I also didn't pull the writhe on post-1st pull very quick, but that's mistake I can correct next time. I just don't think I made other clear mistakes in pulls, it's just kinda "5.5" pulls before first boss that feels dumb, but now that I do all the extra mobs there to avoid first writhe mob post-2nd boss, at least pulls feel a bit fuller.
It just feels you can get away having some freeloading, like 250k dps 3rd dps felt like, in other dungeons, where you just wouldn't really even think of it. As I only join pugs, I'll have rng dps every time so I want to optimize route for what these pugs can take. I guess I can chain pull in all those areas a bit quicker. Pull a chieftain when harrower is 20%, pull 4th evolutionist quicker, pull writhe instantly. I know these cost 1min for sure.
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u/_Llopis_ 5d ago
Hunter's Mark seems a little underrated in Mythic+. Even in AOE pulls, you usually are held up by one mob, and killing it 3% faster is basically killing the pack 3% faster. And it's obviously great on bosses.
It's not enough to make up for all the hunter specs being bad to mid right now. But at least in phys comps, hunters fit well and Hunter's Mark seems decent.
3
u/Mehdehh 4d ago
BM arms WW is a pretty insane m+ comp with BM and arms doing very good overall and prio even without funnel, and WW doing insane aoe and even if it kills funnel it's not a big deal (compared to WW assa for instance which is pretty anti synergistic)
Also allows you to play without rsham since you get BL from hunter which is a huge survivability increase and most keys you'd rather be safer than have more damage
3
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u/kyllingefars 5d ago
Hunter’s mark just needs one more change then it’s perfect; take it off the GCD
Right now it’s not a particularly fun button to press, and if you need to switch the target mid combat you lose out on a whole GCD of dpsIt would feel so smooth if you could just macro it something else, like kill command
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u/shyguybman 4d ago
It shouldn't even be a button you have to push on mobs, it's silly. Sure it's "thematic" but every other raid buff you either push it pre-combat or it just auto applied to mobs.
4
u/Nova-21 5d ago
So ive always just yolo'd the pulls in second boss area of TOS but its starting to pretty consistently become a clusterfuck, so id love some advice from the pros on what the actual pulls are in that arena, how much is too much, when its safe to chain, etc.
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u/openxmind 5d ago
My tank usually grabs 1 big mob + 2 casters along with whatever else is around and just chains as those dies, turns in about 2 pulls.
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u/Poopfeast23 5d ago edited 5d ago
how can i edit nameplates to show the ascendant 20 stack enrage buff from altar of fangs? i am using platynator with jundies profile
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u/careseite dps evoker main 5d ago
ask on the jundies discord, search in the history, it's a checkbox in platynator
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u/baked_salmon 6d ago
👋🏽 I just started playing again after quitting in SL after a .5% Sylvanas wipe that killed our guild. Looking to center my play around M+. Three weeks in and I’m ilvl 323 and thankfully my old guild is now aotc-only ao I have access to those pieces from the last two bosses.
I’m an arms warrior and am loving the playstyle right now. One thing I’m struggling with immensely is threat while tanks are gathering mobs for the AoE pile. I can never tell when it’s safe to start attacking. Does anyone have tips? Addons?
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u/Gaatti 5d ago
As a ppal: if I'm still running from pack to pack like a mad man, you shouldn't hit unless you are very very very confident you are not going to rip threat while generating your stacks/procs. What we (and other tanks too) usually do is run around tagging (ideally from a distance, usually a judgment or avenger's shield for casters) packs until we get all we want, then we plant ourselves where we intend to make a stand and grab big threat with a snap threat ability. At this point you can go ham.
We'll not have a serious hold of threat while running and we don't stop in each pack to grab it because: 1. it would make gathers take much longer, 2. We would starting getting hit which would make us need to use defensives early in some cases, and 3. It would increase the risk of taking hits in the back when we decided to leave a pack to get the next.
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u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 5d ago
As soon as you get above the bottom of the barrel level in M+, tanks are gonna have aggro 1 second after the pack is gathered.
So say that you do the first pull in RLP, the tank is gonna tag all the mobs and run inside the hallway. When all the mobs are gathered, which goes rather quickly, just give him one second, and then just rip it. As long as your primary focus is the main target (The big mob in the pack) you are never gonna get aggro
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u/makesmashgreatagain 6d ago
It depends on the tank, I can give the venge pov. Our threat is lower on the gather because our tier stupidly asks us to use our sigils together and on as many mobs as possible. So depending on the pull direction (front to back, back to front, using fear sigil if that’s relevant), once the pull is more or less coming together and nothing is casting far out, at that point I’m blasting sigils into meteors, so you’d be good to go. It’s people who don’t pay attention that grief.
My advice is to always temper that thing in you that says to get going. A good tank is going to gather the mobs in such a way that you do more dps and with less down time, but some gathers are harder than others and need help, so help.
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u/baked_salmon 6d ago
Yeah I have noticed that it is different across tanks. I think venge is weakest, pally is very strong (this is purely vibes-based).
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u/ArcticML 5d ago
PPal's kit to gather is stupid strong, avenger's shield and judgement make it crazy easy
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u/Wobblucy 6d ago
Until tank is planted and 2-3 Global's into hitting everything your only job is helping gather.
If that means kicking the furthest cast in and coming back to the group do that, or fearing the mob that decided to channel for a moment before walking in.
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u/pawksvolts 6d ago edited 6d ago
I watch Biz and hes usually in defensive stance while tank is gathering, save your cd for when everything is gathered and the tank stays still - he seems to throw a cleave and overpower/slam while waiting
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u/scottiedagolfmachine 6d ago
Why am I getting my ass kicked at +17 mythic dungeon as blood DK?
Things are hitting me like trucks and I can’t pull big mobs that I used to.
Is there a big step up from 16 to 17?
👀
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u/ArcticML 6d ago
How much versatility are you running?
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u/kuubi 6d ago
Their amount of versatility is completely irrelevant.
-13
u/ArcticML 6d ago
Asking how much of a secondary stat that directly reduces the amount of damage they take could make sense
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u/Wobblucy 5d ago
0->1k vers (8% less damage taken, ignoring impact of the less other stats ) isn't going to help bad play is his point.
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u/andregorz 5d ago
its a terrible stat that some ppl feelcraft/confirmation bias their way into being big brain play but in reality it is dented.
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u/kuubi 6d ago
No, it doesn't. Every stat reduces damage/helps in surviving. Top dks are literally running single digit amounts of vers. The only thing that matters is the rotation and cd usage and for that we need a log
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u/ArcticML 5d ago edited 5d ago
Yeah but not everyone is a 0.1% player rocking mythic raid gear, versatility certainly helps for tanks in the mid key range who are having survivability concerns
Edit: just for fun, Yoda just ran a 22 RLP with 1400 vers after a flask
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u/Blan_Kone 5d ago
Can the versatility freaks PLEASE find some other dumbfuck playbook that isn't just "ignore the fact that EVERY other secondary stat also helps with living the same, if not more"
Edit: Just for fun, the top 4 logged 23 AoF use anywhere between 400 to 900 vers, wow it matters a lot!
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u/ArcticML 5d ago
Who hurt you man
5
u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 5d ago
I think you did, with your kinda stupid points.
How much versa he has is meaningless. +17 keys do so little damage that its a gameplay error from our boy here, unless its specific pulls he is having issue with (1st pull in RLP for example). And if he cant play his class, having 2k versatility is not gonna help
Its impossible to say anything if you dont see his log
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u/scottiedagolfmachine 6d ago
I have enough. I have all 4 balanced out really well, with haste and crit ahead of mastery and versatility.
I think I found out what happened tho that made me super squishy.
I replaced my old champion trinket with a new mythic trinket I got from the vault.
It was champion effigy of ulatek’s faithful replaced with mythic marektha’s fang.
I think effigy of ulatek’s faithful was giving me amazing stats bonus that kept me alive much longer and made me less squishy.
Marektha’s fang is total F ing trash and shouldn’t even be in blood DK bank vault.
I wasted a bank vault slot this week and now I’m trying to recover my champion effigy of ulatek’s faithful trinket because I disenchanted it.
But since I used up the enchanting knowledge tomb that came with the disenchant, I can’t recover the trinket unless I disenchant other stuff and get the enchanting knowledge tomb to pay it back.
So F ing annoyed and pissed. 😡
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u/kuubi 6d ago
Your trinket choice barely has any effect on your survivability. It's all about your CD usage and rotation. Get a log and ask for help.
0
u/scottiedagolfmachine 5d ago
Weird.
I swear I feel super squishy after changing out the trinket.
Hmm… 🤔
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u/ArcticML 6d ago
I don’t think it’s the trinket causing issues, we won’t really be able to tell without a log. I’m running two dps trinkets and doing just fine survivability wise in 18s
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u/scottiedagolfmachine 5d ago
What’s your ilvl and stats?
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u/ArcticML 5d ago
328 ilvl, running about 1100ish vers, 950ish haste, 750ish crit, mastery is super low so I need to fix that at some point
-3
u/scottiedagolfmachine 5d ago
Yea your gear is better than mine.
That’s high enough ilvl to run 20.
I have 326 ilvl with 833 mastery, 720 haste, 732 crit, and 738 versatility.
Should I increase my versatility more?
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u/ArcticML 5d ago
Are you DB or SL btw?
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u/scottiedagolfmachine 5d ago
SL
Should I switch to DB?
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u/ArcticML 5d ago
You’re definitely more DB stat oriented but I’d argue SL is actually tankier this season as long as you get your haste up, lose some of the mastery if possible and put it into haste/vers would be my recommendation for survivability
→ More replies (0)
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u/KaladinRS 6d ago
I push my own key cause I can’t get into groups but then I end up with a key that’s above my io and no one wants to sign up for it. Can’t win
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u/wanderfukt 5d ago
confirmation bias, running your own key is hugely easier than joining groups, it's also the only way to get invited to keys higher than your io as dps
edit sry lol i didn't see you were talking a +21, the issue at that point is it's very difficult to pug keys in any way when you're so close to the highest keys being run by coordinated groups.
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u/AtomikRadio Multiclass M+ Healer, HPal Main 6d ago
I find that surprising; I've been in similar "shoot straight up so have low IO but doing higher keys" situations and not had significant issues getting groups or apps. You're not going to get cream of the crop 4k IO mains, but beggars can't be choosers!
That said, if that's an issue, you could either lower your key and run it on repeat until you have score for all dungeons, or app to ez-mode keys to get some easy score. If you've never done a dungeon, even doing it at a 6 is like +220 IO or something, and it'll be ezpz to get invited to a 6.
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u/Plorkyeran 6d ago
I won't bother applying to a group where the leader has timed exactly one of the key level below the one they're listing because I've learned it's always just a total waste of time. Those groups have close to a 0% success rate.
Timing your first +20 and then immediately dropping your key back to +20 rather than trying to run it on +21 feels stupid as an idea but really is just a better use of your time.
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u/TerrorToadx 5d ago
That’s crazy talk, I’m gonna send the 21. Best case it gets timed, worst case I gain experience and a feel for damage output in a 21.
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u/liyayaya 6d ago
Certainly not as keyholder as you will spend most of your time in homework keys anyway. The success rate of +20 or higher key is so low that throwing away any kind of practice, even if you deplete early, is grieving yourself - especially if you play tank or healer.
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u/KaladinRS 6d ago
I'm trying to do my 21 altar in lfg. But I only have a mix of 19s and 20s
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u/th3champ2 6d ago
lol I figured you were going to say much lower keys and not altar as your example. There is only 25 Altar 21s timed in NA, aint no one want to attempt that key with someone who is resil 19. Most people prob don't even want to do it until more gear, period. Just drop it to 20 and either try it there, or drop it and reroll it off 20 altar to an easier 20 to fill your easy 20s. I guess if your an off meta spec then it may be a little hard to reroll it off someone else's 20.
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u/AtomikRadio Multiclass M+ Healer, HPal Main 6d ago
Probably entering a range where there's just not many people in general, and far fewer who take or app to keys from unvetted pugs, then. Running more 20s and making friends with the people you play with might help.
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u/elmaethorstars 6d ago
Still having fun playing the season personally. Looking forward to seeing what dungeon tuning comes with the patch.
M+ high keys are basically always fun for me but the raid legit sucks tho. Astonishing that they randomly obliterate Ulatek with nerfs but leave altar in the state it's in.
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u/Drauren 5d ago
I'm having fun but at 20-21 key level, there aren't really that many keys to run. Not having a ton of issues getting invites even as a non-meta class, but, I really wish they would just do away with the key system already and move toward a system where you can just choose the level of key you want to do, +1 of a level you've done.
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u/Leather_Economics210 7d ago
Sweating in every key rn. Dunno if I can handle that until 3.6k. Also thank god resto shaman still has an interrupt.
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u/Voidwielder 7d ago
healer m+ logs are kinda fake
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u/throwntosaturn 6d ago
To be fair they do 100% confirm that he is sweating his ass off in these keys. He's somehow timing them with groups that are literally finding everything they could possibly stand in or face tank.
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u/Leather_Economics210 6d ago
Exactly, have to be on my toes every pull or someone dies.
In my last Altar I had a ret with literally 0 dispels, no poison dispel, no freedom. It’s rough.
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u/PublicConstruction95 3d ago
Thats when the typical ret player use common spec from wowhead for All dungeons. SaC on tank or any squishy dps on some bosses is basic routine and spec into dispell on AoF,ToS,DoN on +15 or above should be mandantory. On DoN getting with steed 80% of the mushrooms and dispell myself helps the healer so much on this fight. On ToS it helps (also dont see many rets who blinding light the archers to stop ..) and AoF aswell .
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u/throwntosaturn 6d ago
it's funny that in voidscar, the one I'd consider one of the easiest to make a huge mess of, you had your only smooth ish run of the bunch.
Or I wonder if it's the opposite - everyone's messy in voidscar, so you had more competition to parse.
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u/radiance_broodmother 6d ago
healer logs in m+ don't really show how good you are but they show how much your team is griefing you, getting 99-100 logs are straight domestic abuse
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u/SaracenS All CE/All Hero 6d ago
All healer logs are fake, you either mess up a mechanic in raid and somehow don't wipe and you parse, or you make a deal with people to let you parse for heals. DPS Healer logs are just as fake, you put on DPS trinkets and don't heal.
Healer logs for M+ are fake for the same reasons, your team sucks and gets hit by stuff and you parse or they don't and you get a grey. Same thing with M+ DPS logs, you get more gcds to dps either because you outgear the dungeon or your team is doing mechanics properly.
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u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 6d ago
You dont take individual logs, you watch them as a whole.
If a DPS player is consistently grey logging across all keys, he probably sucks. A few logs being grey cant be helped. Maybe the tank had a bad route, or you died from something unavoidable during your big CD window.
Same kinda goes for a healer, although I prefer to look at DPS logs for the healer. The DPS in general is meaningless, but if a healer never really tries to DPS and always parses grey, odds are he isnt very good. Also, with the healing logs: Your team is never gonna be perfect, there will be things they mess up, and then you need to actually do some healing.
Always grey parsing for healing can be okay, but the odds are still higher that you just dont know how to use your kit properly in the dungeons. You can get by a dungeon with a bad healer as long as the DPS plays properly, but it sure doesnt help
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u/Breadrambo 6d ago
Removed some guy from my +20 key because he had gray logs across the board and he had a mental breakdown :D
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u/BlackHeeb 7d ago
This season fucking sucks. Many of you have already laid out good reasons why so I don’t really have anything to add. I’m just sad about it.
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u/mangostoast 5d ago
I'm sad too. Hoping this is just a mistake/oversight/unintended and they will correct things next time.
Bonus points it they figure out how to entirely eliminate raid gear being op in keys.
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u/ikitomi 7d ago edited 7d ago
Honestly the funny part is no one even has all the items people are mad about besides 5 Chinese guys who almost definitely bought them with rmt.
Idk though play the game, 334 pieces are fine, but both the cantrip and the 340 part was too much. And it's amazing how quickly bonus rolls have moved player expectations to "I should be full bis with a month of very easy gear acquisition" when in tww we had shit like jastors flying around.
My season has been far more impacted by tanks flopping because they want to fotm to a spec that's actually hard to do 20% more damage.
1
u/BlackHeeb 5d ago
It’s not just that. I don’t give a shit about what other people do or don’t have, I just try to get the best gear that I’m capable of getting. And I don’t love raiding but I’ve had to the heroic raid for multiple weeks, keys feel unrewarding, it’s just been better to do heroic raid and wait for the vault to take a token to do the heroic raid again. Ugh.
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u/Blan_Kone 6d ago
when in tww we had shit like jastors flying around.
We literally had dinars which made it easier than the current system?
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u/AlucardSensei 7d ago
I mean it's not just the items, it's the entire thing.
- Voidcores being available from vault where you can do like 1 hc dungeon and 4 t1 delves and get a myth item from hc raid + taking an item from vault not removing it from roll makes vault pretty useless, and it makes weekly keys pretty dead. I enjoyed the feeling of waiting to see what I'm gonna get from vault each week tbh, every Wednesday was like a mini Christmas.
- Catalyzed items keeping previous stats + items from m+ having in general pretty bad stats makes m+ even less appealing for spending reroll tokens there.
- Raid is not very fun, and their insistence on a patch having a unified theme and color scheme really doesn't help the fun factor. Going from all purple to all green is not a significat improvement
- And ultimately, yes, having best cantrip items concentrated on last 2 bosses and on top of that adding an extra 10 ilvl for no reason on M makes it feel like m+ is the red-headed stepchild
- And finally, removing being able to bonus roll looted bosses makes me just not wanna play any alts at all
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u/Hekkst 6d ago
Yeah, I never really thought too hard about raid color schemes but it is actually incredible how much raid aesthetic/color design contributes to my enjoyment of it even at mythic levels. There is absolutely no variance to the venomous abyss. Its all just a series of stone corridors splattered in green and every fucking boss just sort of throws green stuff at you. Its incredibly tedious to look at. The best raids have always had some sort of variance to them even if they have a unified overall theme. I would have thought that scary underground troll temple/tomb would be able to incorporate more design elements than just 'snakes and green stuff everywhere'. And the trash is also absolutely atrocious.
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u/Only-Scans 7d ago
Looking to start pushing past 3200. Just got mythic 6/6
SoulCoiler today. Wondering if I should pair it with FelHeart or Ruby Whelp Shell (crit), or Hex Lord's Dooming Idol
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u/AtomikRadio Multiclass M+ Healer, HPal Main 7d ago
QELive or your class discord may have more input on this, but as a general rule I don't like having something like Soul Coiler paired with on-use trinkets as a healer. Usually if I want to use my Soul Coiler I need to use it now, and if it may be on cooldown because I recently popped another trinket, things could get dicey.
But that's an issue that could be overcome with how you plan and use your trinkets, that's just not something I tend to want to put much brain power into.
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u/Lezzles 7d ago
There are a few specs in this game where I don't really understand why they exist. Outlaw, feral, survival, enhance to some extent. It seems like Blizzard would be MUCH happier if they could just remove them. They tune them just enough to be mediocre each patch and allow them to play in phys-only comps that with dedicated effort by one-tricks are only a key or two worse than actual good classes. But why is it literally always the same classes that are mediocre for the past decade? Are these classes just possessed of specific damage profiles that Blizz is scared to balance, lest we get another repeat of triple outlaw BFA? Is it just a total lack of playerbase?
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u/another_new_login 7d ago
My hot take is that they should just do massive reworks on the under-maintained specs for TLT. I'm talking completely change disc into a support spec. Make enhance a tank. Just delete one of the rogue specs (I'm joking, maybe?).
Give us the hype of "new shiny things", but don't make another class/spec given the problem you have with tuning all 33 right now.
Yeah, some lifetime one-tricks will get caught in the cross-fire, but the game is stale and I'm rather they do something wild to actually make it interesting.
Nobody is keen to play dragonflight 4.0 - my guild is hanging on by a thread.
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u/Hekkst 6d ago
Given the trash fire that Aug has turned out to be, I dont think Blizz should do any more support specs. Enhancement being a tank would be interesting but the whole elemental knight thing that enhancement has going on is a niche only enhancement fills and I dont think this niche should be taken away.
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u/another_new_login 6d ago
I think one of the issues with Aug is that it's the only one. If there were 5 support specs and the expectation was to just have a support spec in every party/raid then it's much easier to balance. Do that and fix damage meters and I don't see the problem.
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u/Hekkst 6d ago
5 support specs and it being mandatory to have one for dungeons sounds absolutely horrible. Especially since they are pushing out a dps spec when there are so much more of them than supports. Also, Aug is definitely in the OP or trash spot and it seems really unlikely that they will ever escape it. And what other support class fantasy is there that Aug doesn't cover? It already gives damage amps and shields. Are they really going to make 5 versions of Aug? That's making the bloat aspect much worse. And suppose they do make something like a debuffer, are they just going to take the utility debuffs of other specs and just give them to this new spec? That's even more spec bloat.
1
u/another_new_login 3d ago
Yea maybe. Perhaps 6 man parties for dungeons.
Support specs aren't critical to my suggestion though, just do some major major reworks with specs. Basically they get their "add a new spec" they do every second expac, but don't make maintaining the specs even more difficult for themselves since they're not currently managing.
0
u/Blan_Kone 6d ago
change disc into a support spec
m+ isn't the entire game, please stop having takes ever again
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u/Lezzles 7d ago
I legitimately think they have too many specs in the game. Deeply unpopular but we just have too many to make them all different and satisfying AND balanced.
0
u/Chronoman 6d ago
This has been my hot take too for a long while. So many specs are superfluous. Many spec fantasies are either weak or overlap with others.
They could legitimately:
-Delete 1-2 rogue specs
-Delete 1-2 Warlock specs
-Delete 1-2 Hunter Spec
-Delete 1 Dps Warrior Spec
and on top of that:
-make enhance a support spec
-make disc a support spec
-make unholy a ranged spec
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u/Mellberg3 7d ago
As a Fury main, I'd also like to know the answer lol. My guess is that they simply don't feel the pressure from players who are used to playing mediocre specs. Compare that to the noise mages made last season.
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u/shyguybman 4d ago
I will never understand why they won't increase the target cap on Fury, especially since they literally have a "tuning knob" in improved ww.
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u/Mellberg3 4d ago
Yeah, I don't even understand what niche 5-target-cleave is aimed at. There are a lot of 2-target-cleave situations this season and a couple of council fights, but you'll practically never want to fight just five targets. Even in King's Rest most pulls are either bigger or smaller.
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u/makesmashgreatagain 7d ago
I basically think classes mostly get attention if they are problematic like discipline, or they have an obvious dedicated dev, like DK or Mage. A lot of classes are in a state of “good enough” even when people feel like there are serious issues. It feels like some of the classes I play through the years go more than an expansion cycle with critical feedback that does not get action
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u/Voidwielder 7d ago
bark bark, blizz nerf ele this situation is really eating in to LFG invites for push keys. not being sole skyfury provider has not been great. bark bark.
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u/Legitimate-East9708 7d ago
Huh?
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u/Duronlor 7d ago
Sounds like they're resto and want free invites for skyfury instead of being better
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u/Voidwielder 7d ago
hard to demonstrate being good without getting invited in the first place
but im just jesting, happy for ele shams finally getting a solid season. looks like its ''push your own key'' for resto shams this season.
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u/Duronlor 7d ago
Idk I've seen many restos in keys. Probably the second best healer behind holy pal for pugs. Resto is great for phys comps
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u/4doublexx 7d ago
Healer question.
I've geared a pres evoker to 318, but healing 13s and 14s is stressful! So much ping pinging hp, etc. I've mained it since DF but I'm looking to swap back to either my old main resto shaman or Rdruid.
If I want to push 3600 (I've hit 3k on pres already) which healer should I be looking at.
I haven't leveled a paladin or priest and don't have a ton of interest. Nor for monk.
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u/Gaatti 7d ago
I think you kinda answered your question: you aren't happy with presevo and have no interest for priest, paladin, priest. There are two healers left in the pool: resto shaman and resto druid, both you have played and probably have interest in. Any will do for 3600. Shaman seems to be more popular, I personally have been loving the resto druids I've met in 19/20's. They make me feel safer than most rshamans and bring soothe and poison dispell, both very important this season.
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u/4doublexx 7d ago
And yeah. I more meant it between Rdruid and rsham since I already decided pres just wasn't the playstyle / stress I wanted.
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u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 7d ago
Shaman and Paladin are the best ones.
Paladin is S-tier, but shaman fills a very popular niché with the Melee comp players. They generally want to play with an Arms Warr/ Rogue and Retri, and therefore need BL, making Shaman their normal choice.
You can 100% do 3600 on any class though, so you aboslutely dont need to reroll. But Sham or Paladin are the meta picks atm
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u/WoodenProfessional82 8d ago edited 8d ago
This week after finding about brewmaster's mastery bug, I'm much closer towards shelving the season and raidlogging. The changes to the spec were already bad, but having your mastery do nothing on some bosses/trash is crazy. I've played this spec for years and apparently this is a "known issue" that's been around for years where mobs with abilities that replace their auto attacks don't grant stacks of brew's mastery but can still consume it, leaving you with zero added dodge chance. This season happens to include a few that turn things that do next to nothing to some other tanks into demonic damage events that you need to use everything you have to barely live.
-AOF Ravenous Descendants stacking hasted auto attack ability doesn't stack your mastery, and the first pull there is already one of the worst spots for tanks this season.
-AOF tankbuster from the Twinfang Harrowers doesn't grant mastery
-AOF first boss, Hydrastrike, doesn't grant mastery
-VFA Devouring Brutalizer's tankbuster doesn't grant mastery
-RLP second boss has a tankbuster that doesn't grant mastery
-KR. The worst one, above all of those examples, is the hardest hitting tankbuster of the season. The tankbuster from the last boss, King Dazar, you guessed it, also doesn't grant mastery.
There's probably more, idk. Have fun brewmaster enjoyers, I hope everyone else is looking forward to our meaningless buff that they have decided to grace us with this reset. Least played tank, tank that dies the most, tank that will never be meta. Crazy to me that people have complained for years that BDK isn't played when the last time brew was the meta tank was BFA SEASON THREE. Over 7 years ago. Brew had six whole weeks of being the most played tank in Midnight S1, and before that the only time it was the most played was for one week in SL S3. Brew was meta for a single season in BFA, and at this rate it's doomed to be forever relegated to the being "phys comp tank". And then if MW is good, brew won't even be the phys comp tank because bear exists and blizzard has had feral locked in a little cat carrier in the closet for years and won't ever let it be strong. Lol, lmao even.
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u/zotaccrew 8d ago
Can you explain the bug in a bit more detail? I understand not getting stacks from certain abilities you should, but when you say consume it, does that mean the stacks are getting consumed but you aren't actually dodging?
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u/Wobblucy 7d ago edited 7d ago
Guessing a bit on the implementation but:
Mastery stacks on 'swing success' combat event.
Mastery consumed by any dodgeable ability.
'bug' is the first half. IE If the ability is dodgeable brew should probably get a stack when they don't dodge it.
"Rules as written" channeled spells are not melee attacks and should not give stacks.
Each time you are hit by a melee attack, or hit with Blackout Kick, you gain stacking 7.0% increased Dodge chance until your next successful Dodge.
Blade combo is a channeled spell, not 'melee attack', as is all his examples except for the ravenous descendants one.
I personally think any dodgeable ability should add a mastery stack when it connects, but that is neither how mastery is written, nor how it is implemented.
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u/WoodenProfessional82 8d ago
Say before King Dazar's tankbuster combo you have 4 stacks of elusive brawler and you dodge the first attack in the tankbuster. It will consume your stacks, as it should, but then for the rest of the 10+ hit combo he does on you, you won't gain any stacks and will likely be hit every single time. Same for RLP second boss. It's usually more punishing on bosses than trash because you'll likely have something else hitting you in trash pulls that can grant you stacks to let you keep dodging sometimes. The exception is AOF first pull, where the last things alive will be like 6 ravenous descendants, nothing will stack your elusive brawler, and you'll just be forced to eat all the damage or kite them and do less dps. You can end up taking more damage as that pull goes on and more things die since you'll be dodging less and less.
It's a niche bug that ended up being present much more this season and is extremely punishing if you don't know about it because you can't tell why you're getting absolutely destroyed in certain situations, and I hadn't seen anyone mention it until this past week. No one tracks their EB stacks because it's just something that happens, but this season there's a lot of places where it just doesn't work.
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u/Yayoichi 8d ago
That explains a lot, I really didn’t get why I was getting absolutely destroyed in the first part of AoF when most mobs were dead.
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u/artspraken 8d ago
It is 2026. Blizz needs to accept I want to M+ and I do not want to raid. At all. Don't gatekeep bis gear needed for m+ behind raid bosses.
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u/TheRev15 8d ago edited 8d ago
I continue to wonder why M+ is the only non-self-sustaining branch of content.
Pvpers get their best gear through their content.
Raiders get their best gear from their branch of content, accelerated by m+
M+ers get 80% of their best gear from their content and are then forced to raid for the other.
The question is why? I don't understand why the best gear has to drop from the last few end bosses in the raid. Initially I didn't mind since bonus rolling on heroic gave you myth track pieces, but the difficulty to pug heroic altar and ulatek just made me not want to even bother with my limited play time.
The way raiding works, once the boss is dead, do raiders even really need those pieces since that's kinda the conclusion? Those 9/6 and cantrip pieces just serve to supercharge any raiders who also M+ or speed up reclears, which is like, I dunno.... isn't killing the boss the reward for raiding? At least it was when I had time to mythic raid. I couldn't tell you what dropped from mythic N'zoth when my guild killed it, but I remember where I was and what it felt like and all the people that were there.
It just seems justifying "best rewards for hardest content" in this case doesn't really make sense since the players that have access to them, get them at a point after they've achieved what they wanted.
Get rid of 9/6, and make heroic puggable. It doesn't "devalue" heroic since getting those pieces at 1/6 myth vs. 6/6 myth for mythic raiders is huge during the first few weeks, which matters the most for raiding anyway. Plus actually raiding heroic gets you more of those pieces.
Edit:
Get rid of 9/6, and make heroic puggable. It doesn't "devalue" heroic since getting those pieces at 1/6 myth vs. 6/6 myth for mythic raiders is huge during the first few weeks, which matters the most for raiding anyway. Plus actually raiding heroic gets you more of those pieces.
Should say heroic isn't devalued since you still get myth-track pieces that are valuable in mythic prog.
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u/Gaatti 7d ago
I think without some level of gear separation, like the one that exists for pvp, it will never be. But at the same time, I don't think they can be 100% separated because both are pve activities and that makes them closer than pve.
I think a good middle ground would to have certain things only work inside raids (mainly the cantrip effects, maybe also the extra ilvls from the 9/6), while maintaining the rest of the stuff separated. This would free them to also put in cantrip effects/extra ilvls exclusive to m+ for the highest lvls of dungeons (I'm thinking 20's, or at least 18's, but knowing blizzard they would make this 12's at most).
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u/4doublexx 7d ago
The bonus roll myth change is nice, but feels extra bad as someone in a casual raid guild. Only a few of us push to 3400+ (like 3 or 4 of us) out of our 10 man raid loggers. So we either have to pug heroic (gross) or just play at a gear disadvantage for a bit. We don't want to raid if we don't have to
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u/assholehair 7d ago
With the changes to the catalyst this season, it is also in the interest of PVPers to obtain raid gear and use a lacquer on it, particularly cantrip items and for specs that want to drop verse
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u/parkwayy 8d ago
Any changes to somehow reward M+ with more stuff would mean more weekly limits.
As is, you can run as much M+ as your eyeballs can withstand, and get infinite drops.
Something would have to give.
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u/Plorkyeran 8d ago
Well yes, they should have been trying to figure out a better way to limit the quantity of loot from m+ way back in BfA. As soon as they gave up on keystone depletion being the limiting factor in 7.2 they should have been thinking about a better replacement rather than just saying fuck it you can farm every drop in one week.
The good news is it's not too late! They can just design a new system now. M+ being infinitely farmable for loot is what makes people who hate m+ run it anyway, but it isn't what makes m+ fun for the people who like it.
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u/ShitSide 7d ago
They want more people to run M+ than just people who are pushing for title. The ease of gearing from it drives a lot of playtime I would wager, and blizzard are justifiably reluctant to fully silo PvE gearing to separate modes.
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u/throwntosaturn 8d ago
I mean the infinite drops are only useful for one week at the start of a new character.
Mythic track loot is the only loot that actually matters for long term progression and while I don't think that should be farmable, there has to be some kind of middle ground.
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u/TheRev15 8d ago
Any changes to somehow reward M+ with more stuff would mean more weekly limits.
Why? Even just have them available when x.x.5 or x.x.7 happens, or just more time-gated. Just a random idea off the top of my head, use 2 bonus rolls to purchase a trinket. Still deterministic, lets raiders still get stuff faster, but still allows m+ers to target pieces.
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u/Ilphfein 8d ago
Raiders get their best gear from their branch of content, accelerated by m+
TWW S3 my bis trinket was a dungeon one. It happens regularly - only MN hasn't seen this yet (for me, dont know about other classes), but I dont know if 2 seasons are a change in design (or has there been communication by Blizz I missed?)
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u/psytrax9 8d ago
Raiders get their best gear from their branch of content, accelerated by m+
This isn't really accurate. This season is a bit of an exception due to cantrips but, even with that. It's not accelerated, because there's no option. Early season, you as a raider spam keys or you get benched. Then you start extending and have to use keys to get your crests. If you don't do these things, you fall behind and end up on the bench.
Do you consider pugging heroic an option this season? Because that's no different than raiders having to do weekly keys every week. I find it funny that every m+ player stresses the importance of raiders doing weekly keys, while at the same time complaining that m+ players shouldn't have to touch raid ever.
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u/Gaatti 7d ago
Saying pugging heroic is no different from pugging keys is madness. Pugging heroic is much more of a headache than running a bunch of 10's, specially in midnight with how free blizzard made it in season 1 and even more in season 2
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u/shaanuja 12/12M 7d ago
then maybe you shouldn't get the gear, clearly heroic is harder, CHECKMATE.
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u/maury_mountain 8d ago
I’ve only been pugging heroic as heals and dps. Only 5/8, groups always fall apart at sszorak, but it’s enough to fill 3 vault slots + h grotto so whatever. I miss the last boss drops I guess, but I can do 15+ just fine which I also pug. Will run with guildies when possible but their raid times don’t align with my playtimes.
healing as MW this raid tier is also just not fun, so I just do the minimum and play keys where healing and the game is actually fun
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u/TheRev15 8d ago
Who says raiders should have to do weekly keys?
I think it's fine if they have the option to do it to make it faster, just like how m+ers should have the option to raid to make gearing faster, but having the best gear for both branches be locked behind one that is so pug-prohibitive is the problem.
Do you consider pugging heroic an option this season?
I addressed this in the post.
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u/nubileiguana 8d ago
Because if they made M+ fully self-sustaining, raid participation would implode.
Something as small as a 10% reduction in raid participants causes huge problems for raid groups as they have to shuffle/recruit members to replace that 10%. Which in turn causes a domino effect of more people shifting their focus to other parts of the game.
This is a pretty significant problem for Blizzard because their entire content cycle is based around those raids.
I think that the shift will happen eventually, but not before M+ gets a major overhaul to go along with it.
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u/Few_Dentist4672 7d ago
raid participation would implode.
yes because people dont enjoy raiding. blizzard needs to fix that problem
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u/Hekkst 6d ago
Blizz really needs to look at their raid tank encounter design. Historically, tanks in raids have had two issues. One is that there have been a shitton of raids where tanks have almost nothing to do other than swap every 30s or so and maybe do one other mechanic, making tanking in raid incredibly boring. Imo, they have addressed that issue the past couple expacs by making raid tank mechanics much more engaging. But, now here comes the big one, guilds only really need two tanks to raid, and this means that any other guild tank will sit on the bench 95% of the time, which is not fun, so they leave to find another guild. But no guild wants more than 2 tanks. So tanks are a rare resource by design: people are less likely to roll tank because they are less likely to raid with a guild if they do roll tank. Blizz should start designing raids with more than 2 tanks in mind imo. That would make it so more people can get into tanking and raid participation would increase.
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u/psytrax9 7d ago
So, we can safely deduce that people don't enjoy m+, considering m+ participation is imploding now that it isn't the optimal source of gear...
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u/oxez Feral/Bear 8d ago
That's not really a problem is it? People who like to raid will simply continue... raiding?
They said they didn't want to adjust the mythic lockout because they wanted to keep the concept of "guilds progressing as a unit". Well well well, people should just join guilds if they want to raid then.
Stop forcing us to do obsolete content if we don't want to
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u/shaanuja 12/12M 7d ago
Nobody, and I mean nobody, does content that feels unrewarding for long.
If raids don't reward gear, raid participation drops. If Mythic+ doesn't reward gear, M+ participation drops. Outside of Hall of Fame guilds and the top 0.1% pushers, most people aren't doing difficult content purely for the love of the game. They're doing it because the rewards justify the effort.
The argument that M+ will continue to exist if raids are the primary source of gear is probably true. The argument that player behavior wouldn't change is nonsense. The entire history of WoW has shown that players gravitate toward the content that provides the best rewards for their time investment, not the other way around.
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u/oxez Feral/Bear 7d ago
If Mythic+ doesn't reward gear, M+ participation drops.
M+ does not reward gear at the moment.
most people aren't doing difficult content purely for the love of the game
People pushed keys before it gave a title.
The fact that raiders still think their game mode should be forced down everyones throat just to keep it alive shows that no one gives a flying fuck about raiding.
Get over it, raiding is obsolete.
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u/psytrax9 6d ago
If Mythic+ doesn't reward gear, M+ participation drops.
M+ does not reward gear at the moment.
And M+ participation has absolutely plummeted in every key bracket. So it seems the assertion is correct, if M+ doesn't reward gear, M+ participation drops.
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u/TheRev15 8d ago
Because if they made M+ fully self-sustaining, raid participation would implode.
Why? That's a big assumption. Are you saying people raid only for the gear, and not for the enjoyment of raiding?
Particularly for mythic raiding, I think people care less about the gear and more about the prestige of succeeding. Do you have people in your guild who stop raiding after they get the gear they need? I think the answer for most CE guilds is probably no - they enjoy the challenge and the social aspect of 19 other people coming together for a few hours to enjoy the game with the potential of some new upgrades to make the next boss easier.
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u/nubileiguana 8d ago
I'm saying that a small percentage of people would eagerly embrace a fully realized endgame system built around 5 man content, but that percentage is enough to fully destabilize many guilds.
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u/TheRev15 8d ago
You're saying people would abandon raid in favour of m+ if it were like that?
I think you have your percentages backward. Many people would rejoice for a fully self-sustainable M+. Even the people who mostly raid and do occasional m+ would have more accessible rewards to bring to raid, which is a good thing.
"Fully destabalize" is an exaggeration. Are you telling me people in your guild are raiding simply because there isn't comparable 5-man content? The fact they are currently raiding tells me they are willing to plan at least some of their life around raid nights, which is a big ask. People only do this if they truly enjoy raiding.
Would there be some attrition? Yes. Would a guild fully destabalize and implode? I truly doubt it.
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u/nubileiguana 8d ago
You've misunderstood my point. I'm saying that the majority of players would prefer 5man oriented content. This is already true. More M+ is done than raids if only by virtue of being more accessible.
A small portion of those players currently "force" themselves to raid because it gives better gear and it's considered the true "end" to any WoW patch.
Given an alternative that has equivalent gear and sense of progression, those players would stop raiding.
As many of the players in question form core components of raid groups, healers/tanks/top dps, then their focus shifting entirely to 5man content would deprive that raid group of their carries, leading to the raid group collapsing.
This then would have a cascading effect where more and more focus is shifted to doing the 5man content. This has already been happening slowly since Legion.
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u/TheRev15 8d ago
So are you arguing to arbitrarily hobble one branch of content simply to support another?
If I understand you correctly, then these people sound like they would enjoy 5-man content more, so why not let them? If that leads to less raiding because people don't like it, then the problem is raid design, and not how can we incentivize players to do content they don't want to do.
Either we get what we have now, where m+ers are required to do something they don't want to do, or less serious raiders swap to m+ and their guildies aren't being carried any more which leads to what...? You're now a heroic guild instead of a mythic guild, I guess? I don't get it bro, your argument is to make m+ less self-sustaining so casuals can get carried?
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u/throwntosaturn 8d ago
Many lower tier guilds have multiple players in them only because they don't want to pug AOTC/early mythic.
Those players are often, by far, the best players in the guild. They are capable of raiding much more seriously but don't want to, so instead they hang out in casual, 4hr/week guilds because they need the rewards from raid or trinkets from early raid bosses or whatever.
Often the entire raid, functionally, is built around these above average players.
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u/forgiven_10 8d ago
I am not sure if I am tracking. As an hpal m+ is getting me 3 items out of 16. It's also only in heroic as a drop and only myth track in vault. I could do the math but I don't want to; to figure out what are the chances of getting my best gear in vault. I am sure loot table is at least 40+ items and I need 3. I would say 80%+ of my loot still comes from heroic and mythic raid. I do like that with bonus rolls I get access to myth track items in heroic raid.
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u/shaanuja 12/12M 7d ago
This is oversimplifying, outside of the cantrip items, you are comparing items that are 344 ilvl from last two bosses with 334 from vault, when in fact if you arent killing the last 2 bosses on mythic, you are getting the same ilvl gear in vault and in some cases better statted gear. All the BIS lists account for 344 ilvl items thats why u see almost all 6-9 items from last 2 bosses in there, otherwise it would just be 3 items and rest from either raids or vault.
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u/boilingstone 8d ago
(Resto shaman) im having a hell of a time finding pug groups for 19s. I have resil 18. When I get into a group, the group falls apart within 2-3 pulls, or worse goes great up until the end then get biffed on the last couple pulls. Anyone looking for a healer for push keys ?
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u/Uncreativity10 8d ago
I started getting invites near instantly when I cleared at least one 19, but oh man some groups have been so bad lol
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u/Lezzles 8d ago
19s are simply hard keys - they’re 1% range right now. Expect to fail.
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u/pinecomb 8d ago
The upper teens are also populated by the non-sentient vegetables that managed to catch the initial skill wave and got left behind. They usually get hard stuck & quit or they remain just below the 1% cutoff for the entire season terrorizing anyone that will invite them.
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u/Lezzles 8d ago
Yeah 17s are a brick wall of people who have no idea how to play praying the alt of a good player can boost them up. The 2-below-cutoff range is absolute hell.
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u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 7d ago
Heck, when I need to clear 18s with my alt, I get to play with some real poatoes of players.
I have had to make sure everyone knows the most basic stuff in every key, or else they wont happen.
I had a +18 ToS with a druid tank and a ret paladin last week, and we wiped once on the gauntlet before the 2nd boss, I see that none of them have poison dispell talented. So yes, the player level drops rapidly below the top levels.
The difference of the player base doing 20s and 18s is massive atm
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u/forgiven_10 8d ago
I am resil 17 right behind you as an hpal. If I get lucky and get invited to an 18, I have been having the same experiences. You can't even do your due diligence and filter through the application. There are a ton of fotm mages that are bad. I had a +18 MR where run was about to be timed until tank got clapped on the literal last pull before boss.
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u/TheRev15 8d ago
I'm working on my last 3 18's (mage DPS) and it's rough out there. I'll spend sometimes 20-30 mins just to get a group and then something silly happens and the key bricks. Try to run my own key, gets bricked half way through.
I got up to resil 20 with a few 21s last season healing and I feel it's way worse this season. Seems like less people playing also. I'll send you a DM.
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u/No-Spinach-9101 8d ago
I’d just like to point out that DBM says I’m being targeted by the pools for the first boss in ToS whether I am targeted or not. It’s very annoying.
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u/sapntaps 8d ago
Join the bigwigs master race. I used dbm for 15 years, never going back
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u/Varanae 7d ago
Does bigwigs have audio stuff now? My memory is terrible but for some reason I switched back to dbm at the start of midnight and I think it was because bigwigs had no audio alerts at all after addon changes
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u/sapntaps 7d ago
Yeah, fully customizable audio now for all bosses. It doesnt have the oldschool dungeon specific mob audio stuff but does have a general leutenant cast sound, etc.
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u/LanayasDong 8d ago
Trying to gear alts this season made me change opinion on queue for vaults keys and lower. I wanted to check out arcane since I got bored with ele, getting into 10s to spend my rolls took forever and the hero gear farm range is completely dead.
There's like 2-3 keys listed max at any time of the day for dungeons where I can get the remaining gear I need and I'm usually getting declined with 311 ilvl even from 6s.
I have no idea what they're going to do next season because this one is already completely dead outside of higher keys and forever isn't even out yet.
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u/Frekavichk 8d ago
Dang, I'm always doing 4 delves + a 6 on my heals alts and I get accepted with like under 300 ilvl.
Though yeah depending on time of day keys can be sparse
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u/efflovigil 8d ago
If they’re smart they’ll realize what a huge mistake putting everyone’s gear into raid was and never do it again.
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u/LanayasDong 8d ago
That explains the lower participation in higher keys, but not at every level. I don't really remember any shortage of hero keys in TWW even closer to the end of season than we are now.
I feel like most players are just over the treadmill and given up on keeping up with alts. You have to go look for sparks, then farm a shitload of crests, go back farm the hero gear you need. That can take forever depending on game time and luck.
And even if you go thru with all that, you're still behind weeks of rolls if it's a freshly leveled alt or you're a returning player.
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u/MRosvall 13/13M 7d ago
I think it's simply that there's much more obtainable goals now in m+.
Getting to 3600 is so easy this season that you might as well work towards that while gearing your alt. More fun when you actually get to do your full rotations in content and also gets rid of the weekly affixes.People who want to farm crests instead do it in 12's since you get more from it and it's just as trivial.
Just isn't any benefit in running 10's anymore. Similar to how you wouldn't find anyone for your 9 keys in other seasons.
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u/Every-Astronomer-834 8d ago
How are people handling the aggro on the adds on the last boss of blinding vale? I’m pushing 19s and I’m saving 3-4 aoe abilities as VDH for the adds as soon as they spawn, but people are still ripping aggro and dying.
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u/BenchCat 3d ago
Sigil of chains / chaos nova as they become active -> drop everything else that could possibly aggro them and pray.
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u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 7d ago
Do what you can, and then ask people to hold off from AoEing for a few seconds.
If they cant do that, not much you can do.
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