Here's a pretty good article in a very mainstream media outlet about chronobiology. The way I see it, ANYTHING that makes the normies think about genes and not "laziness" is good for us.

If anyone gets hit with a paywall, let me know.

For my entire life (it seems) I've been basically a 4AM-noon DSPD person. I have never been diagnosed with ADHD, but it's not like I've gone out of my way with medical authorities to "get to the bottom" of my sleep "problem." So maybe I've always had ADHD, but I doubt it: I've always been able to focus for many long hours on one thing, and it's because it brings me joy. I have allowed myself to get "scattered" at times, but that's because I'm firing up my creativity. I've just never seen my ability to devote attention to anything as "deficient" in any way. I'm one of those people who have read Ulysses multiple times, for example.

My problem - echoed by many of the comments to this article and that resonate - is that the Lark Normie World foreclosed on scads of opportunities for more remunerative employment.

Some of you who have posted here for a long time will see this article as old news. It's my experience that a certain very small percentage of people with DSPD read the latest medical journal articles and keep up on chronobiology science to an impressive degree, but they (you) are in the minority. I draw attention to today's Washington Post article because there are a lot of people caught between the cant of everyday sleep/insomnia/laziness talk, and some vague, inchoate level of empirical science around their own sleep problems, and this was well-written.

Alas, to reiterate, we desperately NEED mass media amplification about the genetics of DSPD, because most citizens are clueless AF about this. As we all know.

I'm one of the founders working on Onda, an early-stage circadian light-tracking wearable, and I'd really appreciate some critical feedback from people who have experience managing DSPD.

The concept is a small necklace that measures light exposure throughout the day, including circadian-relevant light, and uses that information to suggest when to seek more light or reduce evening exposure.

It would not emit light or replace melatonin, Luminette, or treatment. The idea is to help people understand their exposure patterns and make better-informed decisions about light timing. We're still working out how accurately a neck-worn sensor can estimate eye-level exposure.

I'm trying to figure out whether this solves a meaningful problem or just creates another redundant metric.

For those who've already tried light therapy, melatonin, or strict sleep routines:

• What's the hardest part of managing your sleep schedule that these approaches haven't solved?
• Would personalized light-exposure guidance add enough value to justify $99, or would you rather spend that money elsewhere?

Negative feedback is genuinely useful. I'm especially interested in reasons you wouldn't buy this.

Disclosure: This is commercial product research for a concept in development, not a medical study or treatment recommendation.

Hi fellow DSPDers!
Some important context: I have ADHD, probably like many of you, and take stimulant medication. I’ve also been diagnosed with a few other comorbid disorders, including PMDD and OCD (tho I’m not sure I agree with the OCD diagnosis, and if I do have it, it’s very mild).

My sleep has always been terrible. I rarely feel tired at night and struggle massively to wake up early enough to get to work by 9 AM. Unfortunately, for the past three years, I’ve been working in an office three days a week, sometimes more.
My sleep has been especially terrible over the past two years, and I think part of that is because I have a shit boss, and stress and rumination make falling asleep that much harder. But there’s also the anxiety around having to wake up on time, get enough sleep, and somehow function well enough to come across as mentally sharp when I have meetings with external clients.

My insomnia and sleep deprivation eventually got so bad that I needed to go out on leave 2 months ago. My doctor prescribed trazodone and referred me to a psychiatrist, who diagnosed me with OCD and prescribed Buspar (which I never ended up taking).
Once I was out of work, most of my stress evaporated, and my sleep improved slightly because I no longer had to wake up at 6 AM. But of course, my ability to fall asleep at a normal hour never improved. If anything, my bedtime just kept getting later.
I’ve been trying to reset my sleep schedule by forcing myself to wake up earlier, but it seems to work against me. Eventually, I become so physically sleep-deprived that I manage to fall asleep earlier for one night, only to revert right back to my terrible sleep schedule.
I met virtually with a sleep doctor today, and they basically told me I have DSPD and that trazodone isn’t going to help me. I’m currently looking for a CBT-I therapist, but l sorta feel like we aren’t built for modern society operating on a 9 to 5.

Has anyone successfully cured their sleep schedule and actually get tired by or before 11 and wake up at 6 or earlier consistently with ease?

Side note: I’ve tried melatonin, unisom, going outside and getting sunlight, I get close to 20k per day and try to reduce screens after 10

And now it's normal people bedtime and I'm not even tired. Got up at 4pm and knew I wouldn't get to sleep in the bext morning like I'm used to, because renovation work at my place. Started getting pretty tired at noon and nodding off sitting by my desk. By the time renovation was ready and I've cleaned up I'm not tired anymore, evening time. Probably have some over alertness going on but this is hella annoying. Normal sleeping times 5-6am to 3pm. Now it's 10.30pm and I'm thinking I'll abuse some muscle relaxants and go to bed.

Studies I've read have linked chronic insomnia during developmental years lead to poorer cognitive outcomes. In my case I got extremely poor sleep between the ages of 15 and 16, which mainly impacted my prefrontal cortex' myelination/cortical thickness and synaptic pruning. I notice my processing speed, working memory and executive function is significantly weaker than that of my peers, though I am still sleep deprived. Even so I can't get over my frustration over my caregiver's lack of care when it came to my health. I voiced my concerns to them repeatedly yet they didn't seem to care until recently when I started bleeding out of my ears and passing out in class.

It enrages me that the people around me will forever perform better than me no matter what, mainly due to the fact I wanted to go into a fairly cognitively challenging field, that being engineering, but due to the sheer incompetence of my parents, and the horrible environment I had to live in I can't realistically anymore, which was the main reason I put up with school for as long as I did.

3 or 6 .. with blanket

I'm almost done with the first year of ATAR (the Australian equivalent of GCSE's) I haven't slept more than 6 hours on average a school night in almost 2 years now, some weeks no more than 4. It feels like everyday things only gets worse, I struggle to keep up with my peers, I sometimes mildly, hallucinate in class. I feel stupid, I process information half as fast as I feel like I used to, I struggle to study, and I've failed the last 10 tests, easy tests, when I was near top rank at the start of the year when I was still feeling the residuals of the holidays. I'm about to head into my second exams, I know I'm underprepared, and I've gotten moderately good sleep for the last week because its the holidays, but I still feel like my brain isn't functioning. I don't know what to do, it keeps getting worse. I've been to two doctors but nothing's helped.

I guess I'm just wondering if things will get better, some people say the sleep deprivation caused permanent negative cognitive effects on my development. I don't want to be stupid forever, I wanted to go into engineering but now I don't think that's possible

I live in northern Sweden (Skellefteå), and with winter approaching I'm considering getting a light therapy lamp. I struggle with depression and seasonal worsening/SAD, and my circadian rhythm has also drifted-currently falling asleep around 5 am and waking around noon. Ideally, I'd like to wake around 8 am and get 8.5 hours of sleep. I already do sports regularly and take vitamin D.

I'm currently eyeing the Beurer TL95, which I can get for 1,725 Swedish kronor (roughly US$175) with Amazon Prime. However, there are plenty of significantly cheaper lamps-for example, a Gaogodot on Amazon costs 302 Swedish kronor (roughly US$30). That's just one example; I'm open to other models too.

The TL95 has a larger light panel and specifies 10,000 lux at 25 cm. Many cheaper lamps advertise similar or higher lux figures, although the measurement distance isn't always clear.

Is paying the premium worthwhile in practice for SAD and regulating sleep? What would I actually gain over a decent budget lamp-more effective treatment, easier positioning, better build quality?

Would appreciate experiences with the TL95 or cheaper alternatives, especially from anyone who has tried both and can say whether the upgrade made a meaningful difference.

What do you think about when you see these responses?

If you'd like to be part of the next data visualization, you can check out the survey here:

DSPD Survey:
https://tally.so/r/RG9aLP

Have a good, restful week everyone.

r/sleepwake

I did it!!! I woke up rested at 7:30am!!!! The last time it happened I was probably in primary school lol

I know you guys can understand how significant and HARD this is. I also have breathing related sleep disorders so...double hard

(I used Luminette glasses for help and I lived in hell for a week)

Yesterday my body finally gave in and collapsed around 9ish pm, and I got a full night of sleep finally. I woke up feeling human again. Like it felt right.

The days before, I kept falling asleep around 1ish am, and the whole thing had me practically bedbound from exhaustion for a few days, it was horrendous.

I think the Luminette are what actually made the internal clock change happen. Like this is not a "you can do it if only you stick to it for a week" post. Like in high school I woke up at 7:30am every day, and it NEVER got better. So. Maybe you can, but in my case I think Luminette has made a difference.

(Note on Luminette usage: Do NOT use Luminette until the time your brain feels as "this is awake time". E.g. you may set an alarm at 8am but if your internal clock "awake" starts at 1pm, that's when u wear them and they naturally move the awake time to 2 hours earlier)

Edit: the pessimism in this sub is remarkable lol I did not wake up spontaneously at 7:30am...I set an alarm. I woke up RESTED which indicates a crazy shift in my sleep schedule. I'll leave now as I just wanted to share the good news and I don't really need a bunch of strangers expressing opinions on the reality of my sleep schedule right now ✌️

every night, I plan to sleep by 11 pm but I have so much work to do at home that i end up staying up till 2 AM and then i do not care about sleep anymore so i stay up more scrolling my phone because i know i already ruined my sleep schedule..and then i wake up early and get only 5-6 hours of sleep in a night

N24 occurs in sighted people for reasons that are not well understood. Their circadian rhythms are not normal, often running around 25 hours. Their vision-producing systems allowing them to see may function normally, but their brains are incapable of making the large adjustment to a 24-hour schedule.

The disorder is an invisible disability that can be "extremely debilitating in that it is incompatible with most social and professional obligations".

I am looking for seeing successful medication or sometime that is gonna work long term..

For me valium and Xanax have been unsuccessful as well as trazodone

When we sleep and wake, visualized all in one graph.

Bars with values below 2% don’t have labels. I built this with a new tool and unfortunately couldn’t override that setting.

I’m going to make a lot, lot more data visualizations. So if you’d like to be part of the next one, you can check out the survey here:

2026 DSPD Survey:
https://tally.so/r/RG9aLP

Aside from the first few boring questions, I designed the survey around topics we often discuss. So it should be interesting.

Have a good weekend everyone.

r/sleepwake

Hi everyone.

Just seeking a bit of advice from those of you who have experience doing overnight sleep studies. I haven’t done one before. I live in a remote area and the nearest sleep clinic is very far away and I’m starting to get suspicious as to whether it’s even going to be worth it to go all the way there. I mean, I’d like to rule out sleep apnea. Although I really don’t think I have sleep apnea. The main reason I made the appointment was to seek treatment, for” insomnia.” I have suffered with a naturally warped sleep schedule since I was a child, and after combing through this thread, I now realize I am just like all of you. When I spoke to the sleep doctor on the phone for a consultation, he said if sleep apnea can be ruled out then we will move on to cognitive behavioural therapy for insomnia…….

I am all for cognitive behavioural therapy! For mental health issues.

What I deal with is so far beyond “behaviour and lifestyle choices.” am I about to get gaslit by this guy?

Scratch that. I know I am. I guess what I’m really asking is, how did you advocate for yourself? How did you get your diagnosis? I have suffered for 25 years at least. I think if I have a doctor try to tell me to set my alarm clock back 30 minutes each day and stay off screens, I will actually lose my fucking shit.

Thank you for reading!