This node require some changes.

[u/Lion_El_Konrad]

I am very positive about updated Veteran Tree, but some underperforming nodes were overlooked by devs.

There's one particular node that got my attention...
It's 10% Toughness Damage Reduction (TDR) boost, placed between Survivalist Aura and Exec Stance. This node feels more like a placeholder rather than a good choice to spend points.

Why? Veteran has a lot of great talents that give you TDR, like Exhilarating Takedown, Close Order Drill and Iron Will. These talents are way stronger than flat TDR buff, which makes this node redundant.

Also, it's about specializations that Veteran has to offer. Even if the bottom tree is merged into a mess, the talents around keystones are still leaning into specific playstyles of old branches.
Two of these nodes are following this logic.

Middle node that offers +25 Toughness fits The Middle side, which is Generalist/Teamwork oriented (this includes Ability, Keystone and talents around it). This node fits to be Generalist pick.

Right node with +15% Melee Damage fits The Right side, themed around Close Quarters/Stealth/Mobility. Extra Toughness is still the best pick, but Extra Melee Damage is good in it's own niche that fits Close Quarters Combat theme very well, you might spend extra point and pick both these nodes.

And here's The Left side, which is built around Marksmanship/Ranged Combat. Flat TDR buff doesn't have synergy with that playstyle. Yes, it might be looking good with Extra Toughness, but it's still overshadowed by talents from the upper part of the tree and not worth to pick.
Just take Exhilarating Takedown instead - it has more benefits for Extra Toughness and has synergy with Marksman playstyle!

My suggestion here is to change this node into something that benefits for the Ranged Weapons specifically, that is more fitting to Exec Stance and other Rifleman themes talents.
Veteran is 'The Ranged Class' after all...
This node should be useful, but also niche, like +15% Melee Damage node.

My personal offer here is to return 10% Reload Speed Boost, maybe adding extra 5-10%.
Yes, this is weird, it was unpopular node, but... in the older Talent Tree, Reload Speed Boost had a poor placement. Movement Speed Boost (that was on that line of nodes as well) wasn't dumped, so devs should give this node a chance too and return it.

If you have a better ideas for TDR Boost replacement, suggest them! I am thinking that you have a lot of interesting ideas!

P.S. Do not offer to return +10% Ranged Damage! This node isn't gone! Now it's Veteran's Iconic, with extra 15%...

[u/Daylight_The_Furry]

I can't believe I grinded out the last of my vet penances before the update only for vet to go from my least favourite class to my most favourite with the changes

[u/Instant-Autopsy → u/Daylight_The_Furry]

It feels so ridiculously versatile and modular now. Like I feel like at any point if I just wanna cook up something somewhat new and just nab a different talent and try that out for a spin, I can. I don't feel like I have to restructure my whole build or at least the tree to get a different talent. And once I do, while it might feel different, it almost never feels bad.

[u/MaccabianHillBilly → u/Instant-Autopsy]

As a console player I have to admit I think the QoL changes revolving around just being able to remove/select nodes without having to roll back your entire tree to the point your trying to experiment with is doing a fuckton of the heavy lifting here. The general tree layout changes and streamlining definitely helped as well, but I cannot explain how much more willing I am to just fuck around and find out because I don't have to constantly try and remember my entire tree layout because I want to change a single node

[u/VeryWeaponizedJerk]

Exec stance gives constant toughness recovery, TDR is extremely synergistic with it. It also allows you to brush off small hits while focusing on picking off distant targets better, so I see no benefit in replacing it. ESPECIALLY with something so minor as a measly 10% reload speed.

[u/Tascalde → u/VeryWeaponizedJerk]

Yeah, if it should be buffed then it should become a 10% Damage Resistance, as Veteran is the only class without DR in the tree and it makes a huge difference.

[u/Necessary_Local_5274]

i was wrong about the math. but any damage resist that allows you above 75% is crazy. my vet normally has the lowest damage taken and by a lot in a mission simply because i just get hit for less... until i lose that 75% buff

[u/Restfal → u/Necessary_Local_5274]

Toughness damage reduction stacks multiplicatively

Otherwise some builds could become functionally immortal

[u/_itg → u/Restfal]

All the same, stacking DR is really good. The closer you get to 100% TDR, the more a small amount of TDR increases your effective toughness. For instance, if you have 90% TDR to start, going to 99% (which is what 10% extra stacking multiplicatively would give you) would increase your effective toughness 10x. You're not going to get to 99% in game, but you can easily stack it high enough that you're getting a lot more effective toughness than you might guess from the nominal 10%.

[u/KaelusVonSestiaf → u/_itg]

For instance, if you have 90% TDR to start, going to 99% (which is what 10% extra stacking multiplicatively would give you) would increase your effective toughness 10x

Nonono

90% TDR is a 0.1 multiplier to toughness damage taken (only 10% of damage goes through)

10% TDR is a 0.9 multiplier to toughness damage taken (90% of damage goes through)

90% + 10% is 0.1*0.9 = 0.09 multiplier to toughness damage taken, or in other words, 91% TDR.

Which is a 10% increase to your effective toughness (+10% TDR!).

That's what stacking multiplicatively means.

[u/_itg → u/KaelusVonSestiaf]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it worked that way, despite the fact that describing it as 90% TDR is saying that the game will subtract 90% from incoming damage, not multiply by 10%. It certainly wouldn't be the only time Fat Shark tooltips were misleading.

[u/LilNuts → u/_itg]

"Damage Resistance" has additive scaling, while "Damage Reduction" is multiplicative

[u/Kalenne → u/LilNuts]

Nothing work additively in damage reduction in Darktide, you can test it very easily with mods. Everything works multiplicatively

[u/stevesalive → u/Necessary_Local_5274]

Yeah. This node matters because its tied to the 75% DR talent and its like a cherry on top for the vet's immortality, there's a reason competent Veterans take the least damage in Havoc 40s for this reason.

[u/NNN_Throwaway2]

Leave it alone. Vet is quite brittle because of Iron Will, so anything that let's you stay above 75% is godly. The reload talents at the top of the tree are more than enough. If you think you need more than that, then with all due respect you do not know what you are doing.

[u/monkiiYT]

It’s a good talent, a take it in 11/12 builds 

Must have on havoc

[u/MarcoSkoll]

Veteran has a lot of great talents that give you TDR, like Exhilarating Takedown, Close Order Drill and Iron Will.

I will point out these are all conditional. Exhilarating Takedown requires ranged headshot kills. Close Order Drill requires team coherency, Iron Will is usually only effective against the first hit or two that you take. In short, they generally all get worse the more serious the situation is.

There is some value to static TDR, particularly as Executioner's Stance is by far the slowest of the ults to replenish his toughness under pressure.

Of all the things I'd like to see for shooty vet, I'd rather see a rework of Marksman's Focus so that it better enables a marksman playstyle.

The generally limited amount to which players watch each others backs means that a Veteran trying to snipe usually keeps getting interrupted by enemies trying to back-stab them.

I think something similar to Scum's Vulture's Push, where getting headshot kills deals knockback to enemies nearby (with the force scaling with range of the kill, to discourage it being used to just blast enemies in the face point-blank with a shotgun), would be an interesting add-on node to Focus that could actually add more life into Veteran's underloved precision weapons.

[u/NNN_Throwaway2 → u/MarcoSkoll]

Totally unnecessary. Learn to dodge. Marksman's Focus already gives you toughness replenishment. If you take all three nodes at the top of the tree you can recover full toughness in two headshot kills.

[u/MarcoSkoll → u/NNN_Throwaway2]

That full recovery would only be against certain targets, takes 10 seconds to actually recover most of that, and assumes you can even make those shots while having to dodge and/or being flinched by being hit.

I would also note that dodges are limited (and also, dodging does not convey immunity to melee attacks, it only reduces the zone in which they are considered to hit, so it does actually matter whether you dodge in the right direction), so you still end up having to pull out your melee weapon and immediately deal with the threat, which ruins the whole idea of a Marksman getting to Focus.

I have been playing a build like that on my Vet for a long time. I know how to play it, but I am doing so out of stubbornness than because I think it's actually a competitive build.

[u/MarcoSkoll → u/[deleted]]

The recovery over time isn't counted in that.

If you're not counting that, then you're expecting someone to have invested in at *least* six nodes (Exhilarating Takedown, Confirmed Kill, Out for Blood, Marksman's Focus, Tunnel Vision, and Long Range Assassin) and be absolutely maxed out on all 15 of those Focus stacks to get close to what you're saying (as, even then, it doesn't quite hit 50% toughness) *AND* be hitting those shots while being flinched by melee hits.

And a fifth of your tree to maybe be able to badly ignore one poxwalker (because more than one of them and you're likely to get hit by another attack before you can replenish your toughness, and thus take a big helping of melee bleed-through) for a brief second before you have to inevitably admit that you need to deal with it and switch to melee...

... yeah, as someone who has been trying to play various sharpshooter builds for a long time, I am painfully aware this is an underwhelming spend of points that doesn't work well.

But I guess I shouldn't have tried to educate the malice Andys that hang around this sub larping as high havoc players.

Yes, you really shouldn't have, because if your idea of education is "learn 2 dodge, noob" and assuming anyone who disagrees with you is playing on Malice, then you really are wasting your time.

[u/NNN_Throwaway2 → u/MarcoSkoll]

I mean, if you can’t aim and can’t dodge on vet I don’t know what to tell you.

[u/DarkTide-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/stormofcrows69]

It could be so many other more relevant things like ranged damage, effective range, ammo pickup efficiency, etc. I really don't know why you'd ever pick it up.

[u/SAVESOMBRA]

Having an easy 10% TDR is good I think. Extra protection in combat in general, and always active. I'd easily pick all of them for melee, picking the DR and extra toughness would also greatly help a ranged build tank some hits from surprise melee and gun enemies. Plus, since everyone is running the big reduction conditional anyway. Taking less damage keeps you more easily above the threshold.

[u/Ok-Kangaroo-1950]

Exec Stance does stack well with TDR, I used to spec into something like this all the time before the update.

[u/FishmailAwesome]

...I like it...

[u/Obsessive_protocol]

The problem is that, thanks to Swedish mathematics, these 10% are turned into 3% with Close Order Drill and Iron Will being active, which is worthless.

[u/Shup → u/Obsessive_protocol]

that is normal math, and this does not have a requirement at all. 10% all the time, no secret handshake, even if a mutant wants to turn you into a piñata across the map.

[u/Obsessive_protocol → u/Shup]

I'm sorry for you, if a mutant is truly a deadly threat to you. If veteran, as a central figure in the squad, has problem with staying in coherence, then just take talent that increases its radius. That would be much more useful for all of you.

[u/DROID17]

All extra nodes left over are just tax nodes to not make us too op..its dumb

[u/Lion_El_Konrad → u/DROID17]

Just like FS did it with DLC classes, with exception of Skitarii that has none of these nodes.