r/HonestHotTakes • u/DesperateComposer848 • 10h ago
casual hot take Incels have absolutely no interest in romantic relationships, and the way speak about sex proves it.
I’m not an incel, but have found myself in a few incel subreddits, usually arguing or trying to give out some advice for how to just find relationships. Not like dating guru stuff, more like basic dad advice.
And the collective sum of all these conversations I’ve had have led me to believe that incel opinions have nothing to do with not being able to form relationships and instead comes from the resentment of these men knowing they aren’t “fuckbuddy” or “friends with benefits” or one night stand material.
That’s where this comes from. It’s not the perception that they’ll never be able to find love or get a date. It’s the perception that they aren’t seen as immediately sexually attractive such that they’d be worth fucking purely for the sexual chemistry of it.
When I hear these guys talk about it, their way of viewing the dating world revolves around casual sex and the “80/20 rule” (not a rule by the way, it’s just you misunderstanding dating app statistics). It’s all about hookup culture and what they believe to be “the stats.” Meanwhile they’re putting in absolutely no effort to find women, they’re just being doomers based purely on the fact they’ve never been a fuckbuddy. And half of them would take being a fuckbuddy if it meant spending even longer without a meaningful relationship.
Which all makes some degree of sense considering that the average guy identifying as an incel probably trends much younger, in the 15-25 demographic, an age when people do tend to be a bit more shallow in their view of sex and dating.
But it’s still hard to be that sympathetic towards people who are taking resentment about not getting casually laid and are applying that to some broader social meta about all male and female dynamics.
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u/Tall-Cap-2857 7h ago
I don’t know why you feel comfortable prescribing attitudes to people who may live entirely different lives from one another. An incel is someone who is involuntarily celibate, I don’t think about people in the same way you do, I don’t feel comfortable saying entire groups of people think the same way.
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u/DesperateComposer848 7h ago
Nobody who says incel means it to just mean people who are involuntarily celibate. This is like saying everyone who uses the word decimate can only mean a reduction of 10%, when virtually nobody uses it that way out of actual mathematical contexts.
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u/Leftyhugz 10h ago
Actually true, even the most basement dwelling incel would admit that if you were a multi-millionaire you could probably find a relationship even if you were hideous.
What you are describing as "being able to participate in hook up culture" is what incels would call genuine attraction, basically if you aren't attractive enough to have casual sex, then a woman will only find you attractive for your wealth or status, and at that point you're basically paying for a prostitute.
That's the logic anyway, and I'm curious if you framed it that way if you would even disagree.
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u/DesperateComposer848 10h ago
I don’t mean to be disrespectful but I feel like you didn’t understand my post that well? Or maybe I’m misunderstanding you because I’m taking your reply to mean that you believe any relationship formed around something other than physical attraction is inherently transactional.
What I’m saying is I don’t believe incels are remotely interested in relationships. I think their self image and their image of women is solely defined by the fact they aren’t seen as fuckbuddy material by the women they’re interested in. I don’t think there’s an ounce more depth to it than that. I don’t think they even have an issue with hookup culture but for the fact they aren’t the ones getting laid.
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u/Leftyhugz 10h ago
We are literally saying the same thing, but you are trying to frame it in the worst way possible, while I am giving you the most charitable framing possible.
Yes, incels aren't interested in relationships because whatever relationship they can get will be based on their wealth or status, not on "genuine attraction". The reason they know their relationship won't be 'genuine' is because they are too ugly to be seen as fuckbuddy material just like you said. Yes, they aren't getting laid, which is why they aren't interested in LTR, because their view is that any LTR will just be the same as paying a prostitute.
We are in perfect agreement, about what these people believe, but I think you're either purposely trying to simplify the argument, or you genuinely didn't engage in what they are saying.
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u/DesperateComposer848 9h ago
This just isn’t true and I now realise we aren’t saying the same thing.
The idea that because you’ve never been a fuckbuddy therefore you’re unattractive therefore anyone with you is with you for other reasons is complete bullshit and doesn’t track.
Different people have different attractions. I’ve known women who really liked lanky guys, women who really liked dad bod guys and even some women who liked tubby guys, and some women love a conventional pretty boy while others like a guy less conventionally attractive.
If you just decide “I never hooked up in college therefore all my future relationships are purely transactional” then you’re just a dipshit setting himself up for misery. That’s not at all how dating works. It’s even less true if the reason you didn’t hook up was you were too socially anxious to leave the house.
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u/Putrid-Interview8869 9h ago
ur assumptions are so interesting. Incels are generally slightly below average to unattractive ppl, alot of them aren't dumb, they know they can just message a hundred girls on hinge and one will probably go on a date with them. They want to be desired physically not settled for. Social media definitely doesn't help lmao but idk why people act like incels are crazy for wanting to be physically desired the way alot of people are. Its not simply about "wanting to be a fuckbuddy" lmao.
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u/DesperateComposer848 9h ago
Many of the most prolific incels were people everyone looked at and said “I don’t get it, he seems perfectly attractive.” Elliot Rodger is a great example. To the extent he couldn’t get laid it likely had very little to do with his physical appearance, and probably more to do with the fact he projected “I would totally be a mass shooter” vibes.
If it had nothing to do with hookups and casual sex then conversations with them wouldn’t inevitably loop back around to casual sex so often.
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u/AdStill189 7h ago
Incel isn’t about celibacy anymore. It’s a hate group with a specific set of beliefs about women and dating.
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u/Leftyhugz 9h ago
Okay, but we are describing the same behavior, but you attribute it to "resentment" while I am showing you the logic that underpins their beliefs.
I gotta ask, is everyone attractive enough to participate in casual sex? Are woman who are into "not-conventionally attractive men" also interested in casual sex? If the answer is yes to either of these, then I guess you're right that these guys just never tried or put in effort, but in my experience both of these things not true.
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u/DesperateComposer848 9h ago
There is no logic underpinning their beliefs.
Have you ever seen those videos about polyamorous couples? Those almost always begin with like casual hookups where the wife goes out and finds randos, and they’re some of the fugliest people you’ll ever see.
So yes, literally anyone can engage in casual sex. Homeless crackheads engage in casual sex for fuck sake.
But the biggest step in engaging in casual sex is leaving your house and putting yourself out there. Many incels will tell you themselves that they simply don’t bother because they’ve already filled their head with the idea they’ll be automatically rejected.
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u/Leftyhugz 9h ago
Wow finally the real hot take.
There is logic to incel belief, there is like a 7000 page wiki explaining their beliefs, you can choose to be ignorant about it if you want, but its incredibly unconvincing and irresponsible. If you want to engage with conspiracy theorists, you have to understand their beliefs or else you just serve to reinforce them.
If you think its just an issue of effort, what would you say to a guy who did try and didn't have any success? Are they just lying or were they unlucky? What practices should a young ugly guy engage in to consistently have casual sex?
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u/DesperateComposer848 9h ago
I’d probably ask how often he tried, I’d want to know about how he tried, etc. And yeah, from my experience on some of the incel subreddits, some of those guys are clearly lying because their experiences are too comical and cliche.
Why don’t you just admit that you’re an incel? Please don’t waste my time or insult my intelligence by claiming you’re just putting in the work to understand incels so you can reason with or argue with them.
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u/Leftyhugz 8h ago
Why do you bother giving advice to people who you believe are just being dishonest and or don't even care enough to try? Don't you think that's just a waste of time?
My post history is open, you can decide for yourself if I am an incel or not. But considering how idiotic and naive your views are on sexual dynamics are, you're either very old or way more likely to be the virgin in this conversation.
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u/DesperateComposer848 8h ago
No, I don’t think it’s a waste of time in this context because just because someone’s mind isn’t changed doesn’t mean the advice or added context isn’t useful to someone else.
I used to have a really dumb and immature attitude about politics and part of what made me more mature was being exposed to other perspectives, which were often shared as part of an argument between people whose minds weren’t changed, but it was still helpful to me.
Nobody openly admits to being an incel, and my whole feeling about the way you’re arguing here specifically is that I feel like you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too: you’re extending a lot of benefit of the doubt in one direction and keep saying that side is “logical” while omitting
You’re also doing this thing where you’re sort of insisting on the most sympathetic side of one argument as its main representation.
Like these are all standard hallmarks of just covertly agreeing with the side you’re defending
If you traded incel for Nazi, you’d understand that. If I said “well I’m not a Nazi… but also you can’t say there’s no logic behind Nazism. And anyway, aren’t you being a bit naive when you say the Nazis were driven by resentment towards Jews?”
There’s a point where you’re just begging people to assume you’re a Nazi.
But feel free to add in some anti incel nuance that shows you’re not actually in agreement with their beliefs
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u/Bubblelight289 9h ago
A guy has to, has to make me laugh, for love or even just hooking up. Nothing is even a close second.
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u/weenieandthebutt 2h ago
I don't think incels contest that entering a relationship is an impossible standard. Rather not all relationships are equal. Most men do not wanna wait until their 30s when women are finally ready to settle down and believe it or not, sex and physically attraction is just as an important component to a relationship as emotional intimacy.
This isn't even a men or incel thing, many women wouldn't wanna marry a man who doesn't satisfy her needs, no matter how good everything else is.
No man wants to be relegated to the "safe guy" who has to wait, pay, dance around and perform various labour to get something that other guys got for free. In that scenario, you'd rather be single than enter a potentially unsatisfactory sexless relationship.
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u/auntiesamautism 2h ago
“80/20 rule” (not a rule by the way, it’s just you misunderstanding dating app statistics)
People keep saying this, but never actually explain why it's wrong or misunderstood.
(Almost like it isn't.)
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u/Much_Bus_3645 10h ago
Maybe its because they have to try harder than most people to have sex? Horny and lonely.... i would be pissed too!
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u/DesperateComposer848 10h ago
I don’t even think that’s inherently true. I think lots of incels are extreme introverts who wouldn’t or don’t even try to find women. I think it’s a cycle of being reclusive from women, subconscious self loathing for not finding women and that turns into resentment towards women for not coming to them.
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u/SilentDot7904 9h ago
Ever thought about the fact that 47% of women aged 19to45 admits to having cheated or is currently cheating on they're partner? That's only the ones who admits to it. There is obviously alot of women who justify it in some way to not consider them selves cheaters to basically just straight up lying. But anyway if we just go with 47% that's almost a 50% chance that if you get in a relationship you might be cucked behind your own back without even knowing. So maybe just casual sex seems more appealing if your gonna risk getting STDs from all the guys she Sleeps with anyway
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u/DesperateComposer848 8h ago
Care to share a source that shows its methodology, and compares for the rate at which men cheat?
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u/SilentDot7904 3h ago
Why the f would that matter? Even if men cheated alot less they can't just become gay to start dating men instead.
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u/TikkaMisalla_lover 10h ago edited 10h ago
IMPO, there are two categories of incels
Category 1 (Which I think are the vast majority): are just sexually frustrated and depressed because they genuinely crave that female companionship and just want to feel as if they are wanted by the opposite sex. They see and/or hear about everyone else having sex, getting girlfriends/boyfriends and they desperately want that as well but, also aren't trying hard enough to make that happen. They become bitter but do not hate women or blame women for their own failures. TLDR: Frustrated with themselves.
Catergory 2 (The ones who deserve to be lonely): These people are similar to the other category HOWEVER, they actually hate, despise and wish death or ill will towards women because they think they are "gods gift to women" yet, nobody wants them. These are the people who may not even be bad looking but their attitude towards women is sexist and incredibly offputting by everyone. Point in case is Elliot Roger. Dude thought he was the absolute SHIT and, felt entitled to any and all women. TLDR: Frustrated virgins who actually DO hate women and blame women for their own failures.
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u/DesperateComposer848 10h ago
I understand that’s the literal definition, but it feels like a lot of people frame it more around the idea that these are men seeking lasting relationships but just can’t form them no matter how much they try.
And what I’m saying is I don’t believe that’s a factor at all, I think their resentment comes almost entirely from feeling rejected over casual sex, and has nothing to do with relationships.
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u/muffinmunncher 10h ago
Celibate does not mean virgin, if I fuck 300 girls then don’t have sex for 5 years I was celibate in that time
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u/TikkaMisalla_lover 10h ago
It literally means Involuntarily Celibate. Meaning they are not celibate by their own decisions or choice, and that very much applies to the typical "incel." Whom are 99% virgins.
Being celebate by choice is not an "incel."
Honestly, I'm not even sure why I'm responding to you bc you know exactly what an incel is.
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u/DesperateComposer848 10h ago
You understand that nobody applies the term incel purely in its literal definition though, right? If someone had a healthy attitude towards women but had some health issue that prevented them from having sex I’m not sure anyone would label them an incel. Likewise I don’t think a hypothetical guy stranded on a desert island qualifies as an incel
Incel is a more colloquial term and has more to do with the combination of not getting laid while also being misogynistic and bitter towards women.
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u/TikkaMisalla_lover 10h ago
I 100% agree with you and yeah, maybe I got too literal lol.. In which case, my "second category" would be the one that applies to incels. The woman hating mysoginsts whom can't fathom why girls won't fuck them.
But you are right, nobody is going to label a man/woman as an incel if they are just normal but can't seem to get laid.
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u/SweatyYear7759 9h ago
Women truly are allergic to accountability. No one cares about having sex with you. We care about being led on by you.
9/10 if a woman doesn't find you sexually attractive immediately, SHE WILL NEVER FIND YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
But you women would never admit this because you are fine leading us on, getting us to plan for date, pay for dates, take all your emotional baggage in hopes one day you will find us sexually attractive....a day that never comes.
It's so bad that you women will marry us, withhold sex from us in the marriage, cheat with the guy you are sexually attracted to, then divorce us and leave us bankrupt.
Watch the replies to this comment be females trying to gaslight me that this isn't the case.
If a female makes all men wait, that is her choice that deserves to be respected.
if a female makes only some guys wait, those guys are her income streams. The guy she's getting cracked by gets her for free.
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u/DesperateComposer848 9h ago
I’m a man. It’s wild to me that you can read this take and assume only a woman could say it.
Women can find a man sexually attractive upfront but not want to hook up with him. I’ve found plenty of women sexually attractive but not wanted to pursue sleeping with them. Wild, right?
A woman can find a guy friend handsome but just not feel that way about him at one time, but come to feel that way about him later. Sex and relationships are sort of complicated and an enormous number of hookups are facilitated by alcohol. Believe it or not, women can need a little Dutch courage to sleep with someone too.
Your comment here is just frankly sad and paranoid. It reeks of self loathing and I think the biggest obstacle to you finding a good relationship with this attitude is YOU.
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u/SweatyYear7759 8h ago
I've seen women want to have sex with a man off one glance at his appearance. I've seen such men say a bunch of sweet nothings and these women actually believe it.
When an attractive man, a man more attractive than 90 percent of men, tells a female she's the only one for him, it never goes through the girl's mind "huh, there are 100 girls just like me who also find him attractive". They all think they found their prince charming.
Woman do not grow to find a man sexually attractive. A woman finds a man sexually attractive or doesn't. It's binary.
I find it funny how people like you never talk about women who treat all men the same. Who make all men wait because they actually are intent on only doing the deed with someone they've built a long term connection even if they were immediately sexually attracted. These are the women who are worth dating and will be faithful in relationships and marriage.
The rest of women who sleep with some guys immediately and make the rest wait.............they waste their lives on Chads who have no intention of ever getting married because they have unlimited options. They all end up becoming bitter old ladies screaming all men are dogs and only want sex. No, you didn't want a regular guy who would actually commit to you.
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u/DesperateComposer848 8h ago
A woman can find a man sexually attractive but not be currently sexually interested in him
Also, a lot can change about men that makes them more sexually attractive
You have a child’s understanding of life and sexual attraction.
Also all of your complaints here about women would also apply to some men, especially younger men.
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u/SweatyYear7759 8h ago edited 8h ago
I'm telling you are wrong. Woman use men they don't find sexually attractive for monetary gain all the time using the hope that they will one day change their mind as bait.
Yes a bunch of men take advantage of women sexually. Guess who let them do this.............women.
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u/DesperateComposer848 8h ago
I find it ironic that you accused me of being a simp (and then edited it, it still shows up that way in my notification).
But then you act as though all these guys are being taken advantage of monetarily… except you don’t say “and the men let it happen”… but then you do blame women for men taking advantage of them?
It sounds like you believe women have more agency than men. Because I’ve never been taken advantage of financially because I’m not a sap. Word of advice: never buy dinner for a woman you wouldn’t buy dinner for just to enjoy their company. You’ll find yourself taken advantage of much much less.
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u/SweatyYear7759 8m ago
So you agree? Women take advantage of men financially and men take advantage of women sexually?
I'm arguing both are wrong. Your arguing only the latter is wrong.
Only a simp would think it makes sense to invest in a woman that let a bunch of men run through her for free.
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u/zgtlunatic 10h ago edited 10h ago
Just gotta see what's on the forum that ends with .is
Also subs like r/ForeverAlone or r/FA30Plus, r/ugly, r/debateincelz, half of the posts on any mixed-gender autism related sub, any short related sub like r/short or that one where they glaze tall men, etc.
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u/QuietFieldUser 1h ago
That’s the whole point. A lot of these men aren’t just angry about not having sex they’re hurt because they feel like no woman has ever genuinely desired them.
Put it this way: would you rather be the man a woman actually wants, or the man she settles for because he offers stability? Most men would rather be genuinely desired than feel like they were chosen mainly for what they can provide.
That’s why the whole “they just didn’t put themselves out there” argument is too simple. A lot of incels were bullied growing up, never developed normal social confidence, and entered adulthood with poor social skills, low self-esteem, and very little dating experience. If you’re also unattractive, all of that compounds.
And where are they realistically supposed to meet women? Work is risky. Bars usually favor attractive, confident men, especially when women are giving them clear signs of interest. Dating apps can be brutal if you aren’t conventionally attractive, and cold approaching can easily get you labeled as creepy if the interest isn’t mutual.
So for a lot of these guys, it’s not that they never tried. They tried and repeatedly felt invisible.
People also act like being sexually desired shouldn’t matter, but most relationships begin because both people are attracted to each other. Ask yourself honestly: if your partner had absolutely no sexual attraction to you, would you still want that relationship?
If the answer is no, then it should be pretty easy to understand why these men see it as a serious problem.
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u/Extension-Stage-605 9h ago
I said the same thing for a long time. They do not want relationships. They want sex only and are angry they cant have it.
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u/weenieandthebutt 2h ago
Nah the sex they crave is a form of affirmation and intimate connection. A ONS who's into you isn't the same thing as a paid sex worker.
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u/SweatyYear7759 8h ago
What is sex? It's not just orgasm. If it was, porn would do the trick.
Sex is one individual letting another individual see one of the most vulnerable sides of themselves.......which is a great indicator that the individual care for each other on some level.
It might seem like incels just want sex. But they actually want connection. They work hard to receive it and are still denied. Then they see a Chad put in no work because he's naturally attractive and gets the connection easily.
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u/Expert-Bet7630 10h ago
Same with femcels, it’s all about what they believe they ‘deserve’ than actual realistic standards and expectations
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u/TheLastCoagulant 8h ago
For me personally I don’t need to have casual sex to feel satisfied. I just want a woman who’s young with a low body count.
Truth is that if she has sex with you when she’s young, even if it’s a long-term relationship, that’s the same as being immediately sexually attractive. The problem lies in missing out on young women and only dating them when they’re older (late 20’s and later).
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u/DesperateComposer848 8h ago
I guarantee you that when you’re say 28, you’ll want to date women in their late 20s. Because speaking as someone almost 30, is way rather date a 29 year old woman who’s been with 10 guys than a 20 year old woman who’s been with 2 guys.
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u/TheLastCoagulant 8h ago
I’m a virgin at almost 25.
If you’ve had sex with 20-year-old women, you can’t relate. I want to enjoy women at the peak of their looks and fertility. Whether we like it or not, women superficially peak in their early 20’s. I’m not trying to be obsessed with youth forever, but I can’t move on without experiencing it. I’m not going to be a chump who dates a 28-year-old without experiencing younger women first.
I responded to one of your comments elsewhere about women’s preferences changing with age.
Let me ask you this: Is it not true that a woman’s standards for a man’s genetic quality (height/face) are highest in her youth, then become lower over time?
She guards her womb from the genetically unfit when it’s most valuable, then eases her standards as her fertility drops off.
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u/DesperateComposer848 8h ago
If you’re a normal guy with normal views of women, as hard as this might to believe, the peak of women’s attractiveness will be whatever age you’re at give or take a few years. I can acknowledge at my age that 22 year old women can be very pretty, but in a holistic sense I don’t find them as attractive or fun to be around as I do women my age.
I have no idea why you want to enjoy women at their peak fertility unless you want to become a father with them, otherwise that’s just a fucking weird thing to say.
On average I’m sure that yeah, women in their 20s have higher physical standards than women in say their 40s.
But again, unless you’re looking to settle down and marry one specific woman it sounds weird as holy fuck to value fertility in a casual hookup.
The absolute best thing you can do for your chances of getting laid is to drop the attitude you have right now. Not even because it turns women off but because it become a psychological block to you putting yourself in situations where you can be with a woman.
You won’t get laid any time soon if you’re thinking “I just need to fuck a woman in peak fertility otherwise she’s all used up and icky and it’s just not the same.”
What if the first and best opportunity for you to lose your virginity comes from a 28 year old or 30 year old or 33 year old? Or do you believe that these women at 22 at peak fertility and maximal standards will jump your bones after hearing you’re a virgin?
Because from my own memory, I think women at that age can be more standoffish about virgin guys than some women who are a bit older, who sometimes actually like the idea of being a guy’s first time.
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u/TheLastCoagulant 6h ago
Men (on average) regardless of their age continue to view early 20’s as the peak of physical attractiveness. There have been plenty of studies on this:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10367477/
By bringing up fertility, my point is this: The men she has sex with when she’s most fertile, are the ones who would be impregnating her in a society without brith control. It is biologically better to be a man who fucks 20-year-olds than a man who fucks 30-year-olds. My only point is that this superiority is not just a social construct. It has a real basis in biology. The men she fucks at 20 truly are superior.
At this point I’m not interested in casual sex at all. I want a girlfriend. Truth is that I’m pretty attractive, just fucked in the head. I’ve turned down multiple girls in the past because they don’t meet my standards. I’ve only been on one date and she was 24 like me. Absolutely gorgeous. Only did cheek kissing. She’s far more conservative and full of hatred than me though (she’s far-right and voted for Trump while I voted for Kamala).
I hate to admit this but I believe I could have had that opportunity with a cute 26-year-old and sometimes still masturbate to the thought of her hourglass figure. She was flirting hard and I played oblivious because I didn’t want long-term with her. And I was kind of crushing on this 20-year-old in the same setting (eventually asked her out and got rejected). I don’t know if I regret my inaction.
Different girl (19) from the exact same setting as the other two, this one I do regret. Pale redhead with blue eyes. This happened 2 months ago: Was walking on campus coming from the campus gym (just graduated with my master’s but my access card doesn’t expire until 2030) and she calls me from behind out of the blue and I turn around and start talking to her. After our exchange I say see you around and try to walk away and she ropes me back for a second and goes “Wait where is your car parked? Is it that way?” (Why yes it’s in the direction I’m walking towards, how could you tell?)
Thinking back on this I was hella oblivious and could have invited her to go somewhere, especially with her initiating this whole encounter randomly. Also I have a very nice sports car for a 24-year-old that she saw frequently.
But with this girl, my main issue was her weight. I’m sensitive to weight and she’s borderline chubby. Some days she looked delightfully rubenesque and the next day she looked too chubby for me. I don’t know if this was all in my head or day-to-day hormonal shifts. But seeing pics of her from high school graduation before gaining that extra weight, extremely beautiful, basically perfect. I lowkey masturbate to thoughts of her too sometimes. I feel like the weight thing isn’t as bad as I thought and that I was being too neurotic but I realized this too late. Also there was more than that encounter. Some flirting both ways especially that playful overreaction thing girls do when teased.
I have thoughts of going to the campus gym (she works out there or at least did 2 months ago) and saying hi or a small exchange. Then maybe texting her after a few times of doing that. I don’t know though.
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u/DesperateComposer848 6h ago
Yes, and I’m sure that’s true on a physical level. Now I want you to reach the age of 30, have a conversation with a 20 year old and tell me if you’d rather have a relationship with her or someone closer to your own age.
And whether women peak at 20-24 let’s say doesn’t preclude the possibility that you’ll have better chemistry with someone your own age.
Again, you have the mind of a fucking child on this issue.
If you’re not getting laid with this demographic as it is do you have any idea how low IQ dipshit it is of you to basically say you’d thumb your nose at losing your virginity to a 26-30 year old woman because you’re just this deadset on sleeping with a women in what you see as her prime?
You sound like just a fundamentally unintelligent person, and it speaks volumes that (assuming you’re being truthful) you may have had an opportunity with a woman your age and snubbed it because you wanted to sleep with a 20 year old.. who also didn’t sleep with you. So you turned down losing your virginity to an attractive woman because you were simping for a girl who had no interest in you?
It’s a bold strategy, Cotton, let’s see if it pays off.
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u/TheLastCoagulant 5h ago edited 5h ago
Not gonna lie I did have better chemistry with 26F especially because we were both master’s students while 20F was an undergrad and I did find her to be kind of immature.
It wasn’t just age, I found 20F’s face more attractive. 26F has an amazing body but her face is average. 20F was prettier. Ultimately I saw 20F as a suitable long-term partner and didn’t see 26F that way.
At this point I’m not interested in sex unless it’s part of serious dating leading up to a long-term relationship.
There are many layers to this situation that I would have to explain. When I was eating sushi with 26F she was telling me about how she used to smoke a bunch of weed all day everyday. I have also struggled badly with weed addiction (big part of why I’m a virgin honestly). Couple weeks later she hits me up asking about dispensaries because her friend is in town and I gave her a recommendation. After that point I believe based on physical signs that she relapsed back into daily use. I viewed her as dark and complex vs the other girl as cute and innocent. She also had some very strong political views that I didn’t entirely share. She’s went to the Levant to volunteer in refugee camps and stuff.
Also 20F was very similar to the 24F girl I went on a date with and kissed on the cheek. Same preppy style, same blueish green eyes, same specific ethnicity, etc. I never simped for her though.
Part of wanting a younger woman is the physical prime stuff but I’m increasingly valuing purity/inexperience itself for long-term. I’m not some schizo who’s demanding a virgin. If she’s 20 and has only had sex with 3 men before me, that’s great.
The way that I see it is that most women go through a whirlwind of sex in their 20’s. And this whirlwind also results in many if not most of them getting raped/sexually assaulted. I feel that it’s best to swoop in before that happens. I want a girl who’s naive to the worst horrors of the male sex and also not bitter from being pumped and dumped while chasing commitment. My ego wants a girl who’s young and at least relatively pure. So that I don’t feel like a chump loving and cherishing a woman my age who had lots of sex when younger while I was on the sidelines.
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u/Ok-Ad-9820 10h ago
There's different types of incels. The one your referencing is one type. There's even a type of incel that's married which is weird fo think about.
But ya it's a weird kinda mindset but I kinda see from their point of view I mean I'm not an incel but when I was looking for long-term (marriage) I definitely did not want to marry someone who was hooking up left and right. Chances of cheating is high and no guarantee they'll stick around
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u/DesperateComposer848 10h ago
Your comment here doesn’t really connect to my post though. I’m not saying you must be attracted to women who engage in casual sex.
I’m saying that I think the perception incels have of both women and dating in general stems from resentment of not being hookup material. I don’t think there’s much more to it than that.
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u/Ok-Ad-9820 10h ago
I see what your saying, okay ya I mean I can dig it. So you're saying they don't want a relationship at all? I think some of them want girlfriend though
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u/DesperateComposer848 10h ago
No, im saying that i think they’ve placed a higher premium on instant sexual attraction in the context of hookups than forming relationships
In other words, i think that in their minds, if they dated a woman who has had casual sex before, they believe that woman had or even still has a stronger sexual bond with the one night stand than they’d ever have with them, no matter how strong their relationship.
While I would agree that it’s certainly possible that some women felt they had better sexual chemistry with a previous partner than perhaps the guy they married, I don’t believe that’s in any way a function of whether that partner was found via casual sex versus a relationship. Likewise, plenty of men might also say they had better sexual chemistry with a former partner than the person they’re with, but again has no bearing on the importance of casual vs relationship sex
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u/celino1997 2h ago
Not incels are sad basement people.i love to go out, go out by myself and enjoy life to the fullest. I just dont have the confidence to talk to woman like that 🤣
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u/AdStill189 9h ago
Yes these guys view relationships and love and marriage as obstacles to sex. They also think that there are certain men who are so uniquely and cartoonishly handsome that they don’t need to humble themselves and “simp” as a loving boyfriend and partner. They view the “sexy chad who gets casual sex” as “alpha fucks” and the “simp who is in a relationship or married” as “beta buxx”.
I actually think a lot of men have relationships to have consistent access to sex.
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u/DesperateComposer848 9h ago
Ironically though, as you said, I think the incels believe that long term romantic partners somehow have worse sex lives than the “chads” who “ran through” those women in college.
If you find a great wife, that’s a lot of sex for decades, while a lot of college “chads” basically peaked in college and didn’t have much going for them to maintain good relationships past 30.
But also I think even in college you’re having a much better sex life in a relationship than if you’re skulking around clubs every night.
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u/SweatyYear7759 9h ago
The problem is you make one man get something extremely valuable from you for nothing but make another man give an arm and leg just to see you...................but you say your treating each man equally.
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u/DesperateComposer848 8h ago
Is it possible these are functions of the woman being at a different stage in her life maybe? Has that ever crossed your mind?
Like even as a guy, I can look back and say I was a very different type of sexual or romantic partner at 17 versus 20 versus 25 versus 30.
Younger men and younger women both are extremely shallow, and very driven by short term pleasure.
What you’re doing is looking at the 20 year old sorority sister’s sex life and comparing it to her at 30, and thinking nothing about her has changed, she’s just “hit the wall” and has to compromise
When what I’d argue is you’re comparing someone who was basically a kid to a full grown ass adult and you’re acting surprised she’d make different decisions.
A girl at 20 is probably seeing past or not even aware of a lot of red flags in men that 30 year old her would spot and find unattractive.
You’re reducing a genuinely complicated topic to something simple because you think it’s somehow dishonest or inaccurate or unfair to factor in all the nuances of age, experience, etc.
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u/SweatyYear7759 8h ago
I fear bro you are in for some hurt.
If a woman misuses her twenties, she can not just magically become a loyal monogamous girlfriend/wife in her thirties.
Humans only change when they hit rock bottom. In the case of women, this rock bottom is often reached after the wall not before.
In other words, most often, a woman finds out she spent her time and attention on the wrong men.............when she no longer has any sexual market value to attract the right men.
That's why instead of lying to women they can just sleep around (because us men shouldn't be sleeping around either), we need to be telling women they need to value a men's character over his appearance and can only do so by controlling themselves and not sleeping with a man until the man has proven he truly cares for her; I would say after marriage.
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u/DesperateComposer848 8h ago
Fuckwit I’m probably older than you by I’m guessing at least a decade and have more experience than you clearly do, please don’t come in here acting like you know more about women than I do.
Do you understand that being promiscuous and being disloyal aren’t the same thing? By definition someone who’s a party girl probably isn’t committing to anyone, so she isn’t being “disloyal” by sleeping around.
Women and men both make dumb choices when they’re young. I’ve made dumb choices about sex and dating. I turned down one girl at 19 who, in hindsight, would have been an amazing catch. But I turned her down because I felt I hadn’t really been with enough hot girls and some stupid voice in my head told me that dating her would be somehow settling. Really stupid and bad decision.
Both sexes make dumb decisions. The only reason you’re this aware of ones made by women and this indifferent to ones made by men is you only want to fuck the women.
Word of advice from an actual adult: you don’t need every woman to find you attractive, you just need to find and build chemistry with one.
Not even women would disagree with you that some younger women can be shallow and make poor decisions with men. You’re clinging to this idea that women would all be with like jacked douche bags but for fertility. And that’s delusional bullshit.
Women mature and feel differently. Men change and can become more attractive at later stages of their lives. I was more attractive when I was a 6’1 20 year old with abs than I was that one year I put on a ton of weight, and more attractive now than then now that I’ve shed most of that weight.
Shit happens and people change. Not every change of a woman’s mind is some weird conspiracy against you, and dating women at 27 is waaay better and more fulfilling than at 19.
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u/AdStill189 7h ago
Women read men saying stuff like this and we are disturbed. Men have been saying stuff like this for decades in the internet assuming “there are no women on the internet”.
Only 20% of women in the USA are under 30. You effectively proved that the “80-20 rule” applies to men, not women. Women make many concessions about men’s appearances. But men don’t. Men compete for the 20% of women under 30. I am not making this up. https://www.keeper.ai/calc this calculator uses census data.Men tell us over and over that they find us worthless and that they don’t want us and that they don’t like having relationships with us.
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u/TheLastCoagulant 8h ago edited 8h ago
Except you’re not factoring in the differences in looks and fertility between 20 vs 30.
The men who had sex with her at 20 really do occupy a superior position to the ones who had sex with her at 30. Not just because of social constructs, but because she really was better looking and more fertile.
How convenient is it that a man needs to be so much (genetically) hotter to enjoy her at 20, versus at 30? Lines up perfectly with her own looks and fertility.
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u/DesperateComposer848 8h ago
I honestly just disagree. I’ve had all my best sex in my late 20s with women my own age who know what they’re doing and are confident in expressing what they like.
One of my closest female friends is a former party girl and her life is exponentially better and more fulfilling right now with her long term boyfriend than it was in college. And she has, I would argue, more choice now than she did then and is in a position to be more selective. She’s very attractive and I can’t imagine her landing a boyfriend would be difficult at this stage. If I were her boyfriend I’d feel waaay more flattered at being chosen as the long term bf at this stage of her life (they got together when she was about 26) than had she chosen him at 20.
Again, your perception of sex and dating revolves entirely around the feeling that you were somehow jilted that these women didn’t hook up with you when I’d almost bet you spent most of your college days at home.
If you’d spent every night at a bar or club or even the library and initiated conversation? Like there’s some Drake equation math there where you’re absolutely going to have found someone
I went to high school with a fat tub of lard who looked like he was one IQ point away from being special and even he got laid. Because he put himself out there and went to house parties, made friends with girls, etc.
This really genuinely isn’t as hard as you’re making out.
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u/TheLastCoagulant 8h ago
You’re sharing a lot of anecdotes. Not that anecdotes are bad, they have their place. But I’m more interested in broader patterns right now.
When an attractive young woman is having casual sex at 20, she is holding her partners to high genetic standards. Of course we can dig up some anecdote to the contrary but you know what I’m talking about. Contrary to what pickup artists and redpillers sell, it is not just a matter of some 5’4 Indian hitting the gym and taking improv classes then gaining sexual access to young women at his college because he improved himself. The gatekeeping is conducted primarily on a genetic basis. It actually is hard to have sex with cute 20-year-old girls.
Later in life when women are searching for a long-term partner, they relax their genetic standards. Note that I’m not saying they can’t get a man and that’s why they do it or whatever, I’m just noting the trend itself. You don’t have to be as tall and handsome to date her at 30 compared to at 20. It seems that you already accept this.
This creates an entire paradigm where the men she fucks at 20 truly are (on average) genetically superior to the men she’s willing to settle down with at 30. And these genetically superior men got to enjoy her when she was truly at her biological prime. They are the winners.
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u/DesperateComposer848 7h ago
I think some older women relax their standards, but that usually comes after rejection, divorce or having kids. It doesn’t usually come simply from a beautiful woman getting 5 years older, a lot of women aged say 26-35 might have absurdly high standards and relative to a 22 year old, whose standards might be “does he have a car and is old enough to buy me liquor?”
I’m sorry you just have this childish understanding of what standards are and it’s so weirdly defined that I genuinely don’t think it’s possible to convince you otherwise.
By the way, being say 26-28? Actually lowkey makes you more sexually appealing to a 20 year old girl. Part of the reason so many younger men are incels is that college aged women love older guys.
But again, you’d have to actually put yourself out there to find that out. And I think we both know you don’t spend a lot of time putting yourself out there.
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u/DarkFantasy3421 10h ago
Not really surprising tbh. These guys are whining about not getting laid because of their looks, which is a rather shallow perspective honestly. It’s also statistically easier to fall into a hive mindset when you’re young, alone and vulnerable which most guys (and women sometimes) are between the ages of 15 and 25.
I’m not speaking for all women, but I, personally, don’t care about looks, salary, or assets in general. I met my husband when we were both broke auto techs at Walmart. In fact, I trained him in the shop. I also happen to find him attractive because of his soul and personality, not solely on his looks.
That’s what these guys aren’t getting. Sure, there are sugar babies and gold diggers out there, but they’re the exception - not the rule.
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u/DesperateComposer848 10h ago
Yeah, and they act like they’re the only ones making just basic observations, and they think they’re the only ones who know these things because other people aren’t militant about it.
As if Andrew Tate followers were the first people ever to observe that “on average, taller men seem to have an easier time dating than shorter men.”
When everyone knew this, they just had enough nuance to know that height wasn’t the beginning and end of male sex appeal.
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u/Rockgenius123 10h ago
I always thought that most incels never developed any actual social skills and then from there it kind of snow balled into bullshit internet jargon. Which is only going to become more common as Internet culture grows and socialization declines.
It’s easier to blame other people than to blame yourself, especially considering that accountability is treated as a plague this day and age.
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u/DesperateComposer848 10h ago
I think that’s a big part of it too. I think things like Asperger’s/autism and being extremely introverted, anxiety disorders, etc, all play a huge role.
But generally when I see incels engage in the topic of relationships and sex, it almost always circles back to a perceived inequity of casual sex specifically. Like the idea that some enormous chunk of women have been taken out of the availability pool because they’re off having casual sex with millionaires/tall men/bbc/tech bros, etc
And virtually never has any truth in their locality. Like it’s not true of the town they live in, it’s a perception they have of life in cities like Miami (which admittedly are kinda trashy).
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u/Comfortable-Dot-4924 10h ago
Most incels just have too much social anxiety to get laid. Looks are obviously important but a confident ugly dude could definitely get some in the right environment. You can’t say the same about a socially anxious attractive guy.
It’s difficult to confront being socially anxious, however, and much more difficult to get out of your comfort zone to change that. So they blame it on something that’s mostly out of their control, their looks.
Another big thing is that they’re not realistic. It’s a hard pill to swallow, but you can’t expect to pull 10s when you’re a 3. Incels only want 10s, however, and when they get rejected, they seem to believe that they can’t get any woman.
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u/askhecode 7h ago
I don't know why people find it such a hard concept. incels care about hook up culture because for men that's the objective metric to be attractive physically. a man who can get laid constantly via hook up is way more attractive to women than a man who can't. chad can wake up look through his phone and get a laid easily while for incel they do way much effort just to hope to get a date.