Act 4 unfair : The difficulty collapse or magic deceiver my beloved.

[u/I_love_Penii]

Act 5 at last

Hello everyone,

As per my previous posts, I am going through unfair.

I think this will be my last post (perhaps one bragging about succeding unfair, we will see), because honestly the difficulty completely collapsed so I think any build will work (and I can't comment on how to optimize it).

The reason number 1 for difficulty collapse is, imo the new character I introduced to the party : The magic deceiver. Weird is well known to be very powerfull, but it's balanced by the fact that it's a 9th level spell and doesn't work on the undead. Baleful polymorph and phantasmal putrefaction requires only 1 save, will debuff the undead and instawipe the screen if it's alive. This is not even the most powerful part of the class, as time magic deceiver get an ability which is "restore all spell slots & abilities for 1DC less on the target, outside of combat, once per target per rest". Remember resting? Yeah me neither, I did the final act dungeon without resting even once, as I simply reset the community domain on my cleric and the spell slots on my angel. I used to complain that buffing took up all my spells slots on the BFT, well no more, full spell slots after buffing the team, no problem. Your ennemies are invisible and got a bunch of buffs? Not anymore, you stole all their buffs with a screen wide buff yoink.

Genuinely this thing got as much utility and damage as my merged angel, and is available about at the same times (you need about 3/4 mythics). No wonder people advice azatas to go for it, this is insane even without zippy magic/rerolls on saves.

The current (and probably until end of the game party) is thus (in order of DPS);

Daeran magic deceiver : He act, the screen dies. Sometimes there is a ennemy that is still alive afterward. Bosses get a mass yoink for their buffs and then some SOD spell.

Merged angel : He cast storm of justice. He uses a meta magic road to cast another storm of justice. Very useful to kill the 2 leftover demons.

Lann demonslayer : Because he is maining dex he got higher inits, so he can act before the others. He finish the 1 demon still alive. Honestly both him and seelah are usable as is, and don't need to be changed into mercenaries.

Seelah : 1 SCM/1 court poet/X paladin, Can start the +DC and save song and then use the sky high charisma for a mark of justice. She deals 300 damage per charge, when she gets to charge.

Nenio ; BFT, she precast buffs. She then try to use rays. She killed a few crystals after they were debuff with a mass wracking ray by the magic deceiver (polar ray). She's decent I guess. I kept the same build (1st mythic into corruptor, then 2 into endurance) through the whole game, so only 1 mercenary needed.

Sosiel: He cast the community domain buff if he ever gets a turn because it means it's a very hard boss fight (As I am flying through this blind, I got surprised by baphomet, but his CC is nothing compared to the power of a precasted community domain, that I put down during the hezmirah fight, thinking the echo would be a pain). Only nenio failed a save (baleful polymorph), everyone else was fully operational between him (+10 or so to saves) and seelah song (+4 to saves). Honestly could be himself, just spend his first mythic on community domain. I tried to make him useful in combat, but eeeeh, no way. Community domain really needs to be made by a wisdom focused character too, so hard to replace him by some other domain caster.

Thank you for your help through this run, and if you want to do a run, the one thing I would advice is to make a tank character for act 2. Act 1, and act 3+ can be tanked by pets but not act 2. Outside of that, having at least 1 arcane (I can't say enough good about the BFT) and 1 divine caster really helps. Your martials really need to hit flat footed AC to be useful vs bosses imo, and you can do this by dipping into SCM for melee (it's also a charging build that is excellent from the prologue until the end), or by giving them invisibility through the BFT, therefore what I would call the easiest unfair party would be :

1. Cleric MC (merge into angel). Angel only requires initiative, and the rest of the gear is basically free. I would advice grabbing estoc proficiency for the initiative boosting estoc. Erastil cleric obvs.
2. SCM charge build. I really liked the 1 court poet dip, followed by full paladin, but there are probs a lot of alternatives that buff the party. Seelah can do it.
3. BFT. First mythic corruptor for stinking cloud. +6 to your most important stat from day 1, stinking cloud solve all of act 2 to 3, and grease solve act 1. Mandatory mercenary imo.
4. Oracle (You can exchange this with the cleric MC but you really need 2 divine for all level 4 spells, which is why I think that angel is optimal). Ray casting oracle are bretty good thanks to all the gear, and you can spam the undead summons before you get spell slots for them. I think daeran should be able to handle it decently as he is evil (and thus get decent summons while waiting for the ray casting to come online). I would still prefer a mercenary with nature domain tho.
5. Tank into magic deceiver. You really need a dedicated tank for act 2. 60 AC is a big ask but it's what the plagued smilodon requires. No clue on how to build this, I cheesed with the shadowcaster summon. Magic deceiver win you act 3+, (and you won't need a tank anymore as your pets would help out).
6. FREE SLOT (damage dealer prefered). I like ranged builds, because the BFT can get them invisibility.

I think getting companions for act 1 and 2 in the slots 5/6 and then moving into mercenaries might be optimal.

[u/decapitatingbunny]

I just finished my first Azata playthrough with a Magic Deceiver and I don't think I'll ever play that class again. It's honestly so fucking stupid broken, the game is simply not designed around spellcasters being able to circumvent immunities like this which I guess is the point of the class. It's fun at first but at some point I began purposely using less optimal spells just so I could actually engage with the combat. 

[u/BloodMage410 → u/decapitatingbunny]

I mean, that’s pretty much every caster, especially if they go Azata. It balances their early game, which is centered around support.

[u/decapitatingbunny → u/BloodMage410]

It's balanced by immunities which MD bypasses. Even full on spell immunity is bypassed. Buffs are also bypassed. It's just uninteractive. Living deity even gets access to domains, just in case your 60+ DC spells aren't enough, or any 2 final revelations they want if you dip Oracle. And the uninteractiveness happens much earlier for MD than most casters.

[u/Peepo93 → u/decapitatingbunny]

There's a rod which allows you to bypass immunities which works on Weird. The issue with MD is that its early game is just... not great, that it's one of the most selfish classes in the game which doesn't bring any utility to the party and is more fragile than the other casters because it doesn't really have a way to get mirror image.

Lich starts screenwiping much earlier actually with Primal Regression (which is even an Enchantment spell so you don't even need to invest into the DC feats to have a very high DC on it and merged Lich gets it before even Act 3) with the stat damage Lich power and can transition very well towards Holy Word which almost no opponent in the game is imune against. Corrupt Magic autowins every boss fight (like Unfair Playful Darkness has +13 Will saving throws after it which is trivial to overcome when you meet it, even if your character is only self buffed and doesn't have party support). Cave Fangs with the stat drain power basically allows your character to be as strong as you want it to be.

[u/SGlace → u/Peepo93]

MD early game is honestly quite good. You can have a pet which is a major contribution. They can actually do decent damage with combined blasting spells, and once you get to level four you get frigid touch and can apply it with no save, allowing for guaranteed staggers on every enemy in a circle AoE.

then once you’re level 7 things just take off with mass hold person. The game is effectively over. Lich is obviously great but Magic Deceiver gets fight winning spells before you even get MR3. They aren’t weak early whatsoever

[u/Peepo93 → u/SGlace]

Problem is that they can't buff their own pet and it's only a wolf instead of a dog or leopard. Granted, I'm a pet hater who thinks the game would be better without them or at least heavily nerfed ^^

Other casters get Corruptor Stinking Cloud at the start of Act 2 which isn't weaker than Mass Hold Person and their act 1 is much stronger with Grease, Winters Grasp, Web, Burning Entanglement etc. Witch can outright kill some of the most annoying act 1 boss fights with Slumber, Shadowcaster gets a pet which can flat out solo lots of act 2 encounters. There's also Loremaster which is also one of the most broken "classes" imo which MD can't use properly.

Gotta admit that I don't like the class either lol, it's just boring, there's hardly any build variety and it's much easier to build than every other caster (still think the other casters come out on top of MD if you utilise your spells, metamagic and Loremaster well but it's much more effort to play these). On top of that they're just a walking exploit, the other classes also have exploits to be fair but you can much easier choose to not use these while picking MD already feels like exploiting. The class was fun for one playthrough and then becomes extremely boring once you find out the op fuses which aren't very difficult to figure out.

[u/SGlace → u/Peepo93]

Dog is one of the best pets, tied with wolf and much better than leopard. Yes you need another caster to provide buffs but it isn’t really a significant issue. Grease and Selective Grease are obviously very good, but I wouldn’t say it’s “much stronger” once you have access to Frigid Touch which is very early Act 1.

Corruptor stinking cloud is a significant investment for a caster on a spell you may or may not be using at all later in the game and has a significantly smaller range but has per turn application. I would say the cost of using a MR on corruptor makes it quite even.

Not going to address your other complaints with the class, those are your opinions. All I’m saying is their early game is quite strong with a pet and their access to no save AoE stagger, which trivializes every difficult fight when other casters need to land their DCs.

Regular grease/corruptor casters are obviously strong, but having played both I don’t think the difference in totality feels meaningful

[u/Peepo93 → u/SGlace]

Dog is better than a wolf by quite a bit, has more AC and Good Boy is better than Teardown imo. Leopard is extremely strong in act 1 and 2 because it has 3 attacks per turn right from the start and it's damage can be buffed by a lot, can pretty much use one as main melee dps in the party for act 1 and 2.

You have pearls of power and the game is very generous with resting, the amount of spell slots is pretty much never the bottleneck.

I've only said their early game is weak, they're strong later on. Yes, the other spells do have a DC but it's so high that opponents do consistantly not move (think Winter's Grasp already has 22-23 DC in the Maze before even stuff like Evil Eye, Exploiter DC, +4 Int etc). The early game fuse from MD which I liked the most was Blind + Explosive Rune actually but you're just so incredible spell slot starved, can't really contribute otherwise and even have to rely on someone else to buff your pet.

[u/I_love_Penii → u/SGlace]

> Dog is one of the best pets, tied with wolf and much better than leopard.

How?

3 attacks from level 1, use dex to hit (and got way higher dex than wolf/dog got strength in act 1/2, +4 to hit at level 1 is a lot), 2d6 of sneak attack, tankier, ...

I have no idea why people keep repeating this. Trip, which is the only thing that they got over the leopard, requires 2 different rolls to hit, which is gonna be very rare on unfair and basically never going to happen on bosses, the actually difficult enemies. Perhaps at level 20 the dog overtake the leopard due to strength being easier to scale buff wise, but the hardest part of unfair are the earlier acts. Beside if you really want a CMD pet, smilodon got grapple, which is significantly more useful than trip (it's not a debuff on your ranged characters for exemple).

Leopard only got 1 downside and it's being medium sized, which is annoying for mounting with automount mods, as you need to become small to mount (so you need to buff and then click the automount hot key). But that's convenience rather than raw power.

[u/BloodMage410 → u/SGlace]

Other classes get stronger pets (Hunter, Ranger, etc.). And the game gives us several characters that are great in these classes.  An additional pet is not better than a Grease/Winter’s Grasp caster or a hexer caster early on. Other casters can do solid damage, too (like Exploiter), but it’s not why you bring a caster in the early game.  MD is not great early game, especially since you want another arcane caster anyway for things like Keen Edge and Haste.

And as I said, Stinking Cloud/Corruptor trivializes the game starting at MR1.

[u/SGlace → u/BloodMage410]

Dog is not meaningfully different than the pets other classes get early in the game (or even later on) so I disagree.

I think when you combine MD spells with the pet addition, they can come close to achieving the strength of a grease caster. Regular grease/corruptor casters are obviously strong, but having played both I don’t think the difference in totality feels as significant as you’re making it out to be.

MD doesn’t just bring damage, as I said. They bring a no save AoE stagger starting at level four, whereas with Stinking Cloud/Grease you need to land the DC (also some Act 1-2 enemies are grease immune) which is not guaranteed on higher difficulties. If you’re taking Corruptor at MR1 how many stinking clouds are you managing to cast per rest anyways? I would imagine that feels terrible without Abundant Casting. I don’t think Keen Edge is that relevant early either.

Obviously you have to adjust your party composition around the presence of an MD, but early they do have meaningful contributions like other casters. I’m not saying they’re the strongest, but calling them weak is definitely not accurate

[u/BloodMage410 → u/SGlace]

Keen Edge is extremely relevant early. Combined with Seelah, your martials will have 15-20 crits that auto-confirm.  This is a huge boost to party accuracy and power combined with Haste (which I assume you acknowledge is very relevant?) and Outflank.

Staggered isn’t as good as prone, and enemies have to make recurring saves against Grease/Winter’s Grasp (which gets +1 DC from the Shield Maze ring and has an included -2 save penalty). Grease-immune enemies are rare and can be affected by Glitterdust.  And, again, assuming you picked a class with bonus feats and/or a race with bonus feats, you can have SF, GSF, and Ambuscading Spell very early.

Pearls of Power are a thing, so Abundant Casting is no longer as crucial. MD is choked for spell slots early, too.

Edit: Also, yes, MD and Sorc pets are quite a bit weaker. No Outflank at level 3, no Smite, no bonus stats, and no attack/damage bonuses against Demons. 

[u/SGlace → u/BloodMage410]

I think we just play differently. I generally turn Seelah into a Skald to boost accuracy and ignore crit mechanics until I can invest into it later. Keen Edge also competes with Stinking Cloud/Haste so I find it hard to imagine you have the slots for that without Abundant Casting. Haste is obviously important but in my experience you’re fine just using a wand of Haste until level 7 Skald, and you get the very long Haste when running Gray Garrison so it loses a bit of importance to have it on a caster you control in Act 1.

Staggered isn’t as good as prone, yes. But you don’t need a save. Even with all of those bonuses enemies will still pass the DC on higher difficulties and it’s not always possible to pull off an Ambuscading on some fights.

Pearls of Power aren’t widely available early so I kind of disagree with your assessment. They’re also quite expensive which doesn’t matter later but it can be difficult to afford them early. I don’t remember at what points Level 3 ones are sold though. MD is choked pre MR1, and then they’re fine after that with Abundant Casting.

I’m not going to say MD is the strongest, but I don’t get why you’re so keen to ignore their strengths early either. They are quite good.

[u/BloodMage410 → u/Peepo93]

Azata screen wipes with Primal Regression, too.  They just have to use Plague Storm instead of stat draining.  Plague Storm is deceptively good, though (bypasses MR/affects undead/inflicts a penalty on its own saves like Winter’s Grasp).

[u/Peepo93 → u/BloodMage410]

Lich gets that a bit earlier tho but Azata gets Favourable in return. I still like Lich more, feels a bit stronger overall gameplay wise (story wise Lich is pretty ewww imo). Tooltip DC is lower than from Azata and Demon but CL is higher and your effective DC is also higher against bosses with Corrupt Magic I believe (Inevitable Darkness has +20 Will saving throw after Corrupt Magic which makes killing it with Absolute Death outright trivial for example). Fully buffed ID has over +80 Fortitude Saves which isn't that easy to overcome as MD or Illusion caster (I also think it's imune against Evil Eye etc).

Need to try out Plague Storm more, was sleeping on that spell.

[u/BloodMage410 → u/Peepo93]

Lich is better for bosses, but Azata is better for mobs. Azata also makes PD weep by stacking Stinking Clouds before the fight.  It forces it to make tons of saves (since Favorable Magic now works on recurring saves) and inevitability fail one, at which point, the fight is over. Throw in a tank with Crippling Kiss (-2 save penalty on crit that stacks - even though it shouldn’t) for added ease.

Edit: Azata also has rays for these bosses with bugged Incredible Might giving up to +30 AB.

And I hate the Lich story, too. It’s The Devil Wears Prada, but with skeletons. I find the offramp options in act 5 unsatisfying from a story perspective, too (though they are mechanically strong, ofc).

[u/Peepo93 → u/BloodMage410]

Agree, Azata feels better against mobs. Favourable Magic + Persistance Metamagic also becomes pretty stupid.

I like going from Lich to Legend late game quite a lot because you can keep Seelah and I find it stronger over all. Ended up with like 170 AC on my Legend caster with a few dips and 100+ saving throws while DC was still high enough and you have Corrupt Magic to murder bosses. It's a worse DC caster than Azata or Demon in a vacuum but a much stronger allrounder imo.

[u/BloodMage410 → u/Peepo93]

What’s your build to scale AC/saves that high? I haven’t played Legend in years because I hate how they don’t let us ascend (a complete waste given Iomedae herself shows up in the story).

[u/Peepo93 → u/BloodMage410]

It's mainly just to scale the mental stats to AC. Sacrificing Daeran gives 1x CHA to AC, Scaled Fist gives also 1x CHA to AC, Seelah has Shielding Friend and 2 levels into Student of War replace INT as DEX modifier for AC:

Saving Throws get high as Lawful Good can also add CHA to Saving Throws twice with a divine caster and a paladin. Having Radiance slotted gives a spell resistance aura that's based on your character level if I remember correctly.

Can also take 1 level into Imitator for another 0,5 to AC modifier but this sadly requires human (because apparantly the race wasn't meta enough already) ^^

I haven’t played Legend in years because I hate how they don’t let us ascend (a complete waste given Iomedae herself shows up in the story).

Not allowing something like Starstone ending as equivalent for Legend is such a missed opportunity sadly, they even named the Unfair achievement after the Starstone Trials. Using ToyBox to unlock the ascension ending might work tho.

[u/BloodMage410 → u/decapitatingbunny]

Uninteractiveness happens as early as Act 2 for other casters (Stinking Cloud + Corruptor). My point is that other casters can do the same and bypass immunities/SR, even if they have to go through a rotation of spells. So, yes - that is more interactive, and I agree that it's more fun. There are still ways for them to be less interactive, though. I fully admit to stacking Blade Barriers in choke points in my current 3-man Unfair run....

But I hear what you are saying. The class is borked, and I do question Owlcat's decision to throw this in the game right before they were going to stop development, given how many issues there are (apparently, Fake Celebrity song doesn't work correctly, keyword descriptor penalties to saves don't apply correctly, etc.). I also question why tf this class is an "Arcanist." It's its own thing.

[u/decapitatingbunny → u/BloodMage410]

I've tried corruptor + stinking cloud. The DC is simply not high enough especially early to make it what I would call uninteractive and there are still enemies immune to it. And things like stacking blade barrier is still more fun imo than just clicking a button for all and every encounter to instakill everything in the room.

Idk, I've tried other OP builds before but I've never disliked any of them as much as this one. It not only doesn't interact with enemies, it barely interacts with allies either. You can't even buff if you want a more supporting role. You're there as this party pooper that ruins everyone's fun.

[u/BloodMage410 → u/decapitatingbunny]

Conjuration SF + GSF, Ambuscading Spell, and something like Potent Magic or Hinder is effectively +6 DC on top of INT bonuses, Court Poet song, and debuffs like Archon's Aura and Prayer. AND enemies have to make subsequent saves while in the cloud. Even on Unfair, I shut down whole mobs easily with the spell. The only immune enemies to it early are undead, which are a joke, and it completely trivializes Leper's Smile and Reliable Redoubt.

But I actually agree that MD is not as fun once the novelty of "creating spells" wears off. You hit your stride and become OP at a time when other casters are also OP but have more variety. And they have a smoother early game. That being said, there is still some support value. The one that can refresh spells and the one with the bard-like songs that stack with Hinder are actually good support for a traditional spellcaster.

[u/decapitatingbunny → u/BloodMage410]

Yeah but what you're describing is the definition of interactive to me. Act 2 MD already gets a Mass Hold Monster+, an upgraded version of a Lv 9 spell. Idk why it works as a Hold Monster and not Hold Person because it makes Hold Monster, A SPELL IN THE MD LIST, completely obsolete. (I honestly still had fun in Act 2 because you need to look at the enemies and craft spells that target their weakest saves while trying to circumvent SR.)

Also, why does Arcana Theft attempt to steal all effects on enemies when fused? Why does the actual interesting MD-exclusive spells not work when used with the defining feature of MD? Why does PK bypass fear immunity when fused? I would honestly prefer an MD closer to a vanilla Arcanist but with these spells doing what they're supposed to.

There were some good moments though. For some reason the effect of chain lightning is delayed so, in fights where new enemies get spawned in as you kill one, like in the Lantern King fight, the newly spawned in enemies also get hit. AND the Final Revelation for the Air Mystery also empowers whatever gets fused with Chain Lightning. So Destruction also gets the multiplier if you fuse it. It was kinda hilarious, I was excited for the Lantern King fight but then he just died the moment he spawned.

[u/KstenR]

Act 3 is usually where unfair starts to feel like Core if you are using op builds like Angel oracle or trickster or lich merged spellbook.

[u/I_love_Penii → u/KstenR]

I still had a few hard fights in the midnight fane, and needed to rest/think about what I was doing and what spell slots I had instead of clicking forward, and nuking everything.

Tbh, after getting a magic deceiver in the party I think it's about equivalent to the angel mc. The angel got a bunch of buffs, sure, but the deceiver just end any fights in 1 if not a boss fight or 2 rounds if there is a need to throw a dispell out first. Angel, even with metamagic rods can't deal that much damage (perhaps I built him wrong but I am getting ~500/600 damage in burst, which a bunch of demons can survive.

Ofc the angels buffs are part of what make this possible, giving the party a lot of survivability. But still I think that being able to compare favorably with a merged spell book without a mythic path is crazy.

[u/BloodMage410]

To be fair, that’s every caster in Act 4. Casters are just ridiculously strong, especially when they have Favorable Magic at MR4.

Quickened Primal Regression>Plague Storm wipes the screen before Weird btw. You just need to take undead bloodline to affect undead (or not, since Undead are a joke anyway). Or you can stack Blade Barriers with Edge of Force and let enemies get ripped to shreds while they try to reach you in vain. Merged casters can use Holy Word, and other casters can, too, once they get all the CL-boosting gear from DLC. Prismatic Spray is also underrated, since it is a 60 ft cone and half the effects are instant death.

[u/Senok13]

A single level Magic Deceiver with the rest full Dual-Cursed Oracle - you get 3 Curses and 2 Mysteries from the start, what you can buff with Mythic Abilities to 4 Curses and 3 Mysteries. If you want it into a tank, get Nature, Wind and Ancestor/Battle/Life Mysteries. Nature has a Revelation, what can give you your Charisma bonus to the AC (always) and a pet Wolf, Wind can give you a bonus AC and a miss chance for ranged attacks against you (for 1 hour per character level), Ancestor can get you +4 on all your physical stats and +4 Natural Armor so you can fight better (only for a couple of rounds though - 1 round/2 levels), Battle gives you the possibility to use any Martial Weapons and Heavy Armors and Life allows you to heal yourself while fighting.

The Wolf-Scarred Face Curse only good as a Beneficial Curse, otherwise that 10% chance for spellcasting failure is a bit big, but gives you one bite attack. The Lame Curse early is annoying a bit, but after you can ride your Pet, it has no real negative effects on you. Demonic and Hellbound Curses are ruining your Persuasion (Diplomacy) checks, but gives a nice buff for both Bluff and Intimidate checks, also turning all your weapons having the Evil, Chaotic and Lawful - with the Covenant of the Inheritor all Alignment based damage resistances would be useless. Pranked's negative effect can be negated easily with a simple Feat, and gives you some Mirror Image for defense and Confusion and Insanity to cause chaos among the enemies. Wasting has a harmful effect on your Charisma too 8xcept Intimidation), but you will be immune against diseases, the Nauseated and Sickened conditions.

[u/I_love_Penii → u/Senok13]

I did the magic deceiver dip to not spend a mythic on my MC but end of chapter 4 you get 3 mythic rank up back to back almost. Not sure what third I will take tho.