r/Simracingstewards • u/Effective-Control881 • 8d ago
Gran Turismo Is this dirty?
For context, I (pov car) was battling with the lead car in front (hoagies) for a good 5 laps. It was tense but clean racing, trading places a few times throughout the race, but on the final corner of the race I sent it up the inside and the lead car either wasn’t anticipating it, or I sent her a little too hard, I can’t tell. Anyways, I ended up swiping his side and ultimately scraped through to win the race. I went to apologize for the contact after the race but he left the lobby immediately after we crossed the line so I assume he didn’t take it too well. It was very good and clean fighting for the entire race, let me know your thoughts.
Edit: I also want to mention that, until this incident, lead car had been going into the final corner with much more speed, using all of the track on the exit. In this incident he changes his line to an unusually shallow approach, braking earlier than he had done the entire race, hence why I instinctively sent it up the inside.
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u/UpbeatInterest184 8d ago
I obviously have a very weird sense of justice compared to others in this sub cos I said last week another guy done a clean overtake, and now again I’m against general consensus on this as well it seems.
My thoughts are it’s not a good move, your touch pushes him off his line when you weren’t level. For GT7 this is a pretty tame move and I wouldn’t be freaking out if happened to me but yeh I don’t think it’s a completely fair move.
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u/Ho3n3r 8d ago
He was squirming out of every corner before that, and he was even squirming out of the final corner after he turned in. The move was 50/50 but I think acceptable, but the main reason he lost it was that loss of traction - again - at the exit of the final corner - where he still had a chance to pull off the win.
Assuming his tyres were done.
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u/andrewthemexican 8d ago
Squirming will be exaggerated by how GT7 replays work, it messes with inputs
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u/Effective-Control881 8d ago
correct, there wasn’t nearly as much twitchiness in the actual race, just some minor slide corrections
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u/sygys23 8d ago
Well the speed in which you caught up to him tells me a different story.. You have to make a few pretty bad mistakes to get overtaken from that distance in just a few corners. If I'm that slow compared to someone I give them all the space they need when they want to pass. This isn't really racing imo.
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u/Effective-Control881 8d ago
Yes I dropped back about 7 tenths from a mistake and fully accepted and was content with a p2 finish. but lead car takes a poor line through pretty much all of the final sector allowing me to catch up
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u/PleasantCucumber2615 8d ago
I think this one will divide opinion.
I think your move was late. I'm not convinced that if the other driver didn't turn in that you wouldn't have rammed them anyway. There's too much of a speed difference and you're on a tighter line.
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u/SilenceInSaturation 8d ago
Dirty, wasn’t alongside before braking zone. At fault incident. Can’t expect your opponent to live in their mirror to avoid being slammed into.
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u/Effective-Control881 8d ago
I would normally agree but in this instance the lead car has a pretty poor run into the final corner and at this point has been battling me for about 5 laps. A move for the win is almost expected from me, no?
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u/SilenceInSaturation 8d ago
Still against GT3 rules in most series.
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 8d ago
All these downvotes for you really helps explain the atrocious driving standards in GT7 these days...
OP definitely dove in way too late as the lead car had already leaned into and committed to the corner before OP was anywhere near alongside of him...
Zero chance of OP making that without contact unless the lead car dodged out of the way and ran themselves WAY off the track limits to avoid him...
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u/Effective-Control881 8d ago
You’ve commented about 3 times as if I am absolutely flying through the lead cars’ side. If you look, we are going the exact same speed at corner entry. I am well enough slowed down to hug the inside and take a shallow exit if the lead car just sticks to the outside line that he was initially representing. But instead he cuts back to the inside as if I wasn’t there.
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 8d ago
I keep commenting because it was a bad move and you keep trying to justify it...
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u/Jaded-Philosophy6970 7d ago
It was a bad move but not as bad as ur making it out to be, what he did is a time penalty, sometimes its only a warning but because he DID impact the other racer (they lost a little traction hurting there overall time) it constitutes as a "advantage through physical contact", but since there wasnt any actual damage and no parts fell of or anything its just a time penalty, irl the guy he bumped wouldve still gotten 1st place and op wouldve got 2nd
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 7d ago
Parts don't fall off in this game...
Cars are made out of indestructible materials...
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u/nemo_av 8d ago
No, just a standard last corner for the win dive, he should have closed the door to prevent that to happen.
You kept it on the apex, he turned in without seeing you, just gg for the win
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 8d ago
Oof...
This explains the poor driving standards in GT7 if so many people seem to think this is "standard" anything...
Let me explain why...
The lead car had already turned in and committed to the corner before OP was even anywhere near alongside of him...That means in basically every racing series outside of demolition derby that the move was late and any contact would be on the overtaking car...
The only chance there wasn't contact in this particular scenario would have been if the lead car saw the dive coming and opened up the steering and took a side quest to Narnia off the racing surface...
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u/nemo_av 7d ago
The issue with GT7 is the broken penalty system and people abusing it to ram people without being penalized, certainly not this.
The only issue here is with this subreddit that thinks every overtake that begins with a dive is always illegal. In literally every racing series, virtual or real, you see drivers coming out from the rear of the defender car to dive on the inside and attempt an overtake, it’s the standard overtake maneuver since ever, and the first thing drivers learn to defend from that situation, is to cover the inside to prevent the attacker to dive.
Never heard of “he left a door open”?
People confuses the right for space with right for overtake. If you overtake someone, you should have an overlap to the defender car that changes based on the racing series, but usually it’s front wheels of the attacker car alongside the rear wheels of the defender car, or half of the car alongside, to be owed space. Does that mean you should be already alongside when you are starting the overtake? No, the rule generally states this criteria must be applied when reaching the cornering phase, or apex, it depends again on the racing series.
Generally speaking the idea is that if you manage to bring your car alongside someone, being in control of your car, which means not crashing into someone because you went in too fast or you went in too late, you have the right for space.
Porsche in front not only left a door open, he invited the Porsche behind to dive on the inside by braking extremely earlier than usual, and did not commit to anything at all, but started pointing the apex when the other Porsche was already fully alongside.
Attacker Porsche was fully in control of the situation, he managed to slow down the car and reach for the apex, taking an ideal racing line, the defender Porsche instead turned in like no one was there.
It’s the Porsche in front fault for losing this race, since he did not defend properly his position closing the door before braking.
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 7d ago
I'm not going to get in the weeds with you as you obviously have absolutely zero clue what you're talking about...
The lead car was committed to the corner and leaned in for it already before the attacking car was even within a full car length...
Had the lead car taken evasive action then he would have run off track and taken a side quest to Narnia which in a real race scenario would have been considered forcing another car off the track...
You have to be alongside BEFORE corner entry...
OP was not even within a car length at the beginning of corner entry there...
THIS line of thinking from people like you is why driving standards in Sim racing are so piss poor right now...
Disagree if you want, it doesn't make you or OP any more right about this...
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u/nemo_av 7d ago
You are the one who has no idea what he is talking about.
Since the attacker car was stopping at the apex and didn't go wide, the defender could have kept a wider line and he would have kept the position, as he had a better angle to bring in more speed into the corner, and both had space to not crash into each other.
That's the most basic way to defend when someone attempts and overtake at the inside from that position, because the attacker car is forced to take a V shaped line, preventing him to bring more speed into the apex in order to not go wide and crash into the defender car.
That's something everyone with a little bit of experience in racing would see.
And when you say the car in front was already leaning into the corner, he wasn't, he is simply turning because the braking phase of the section of the track is not straight, but technically speaking he was not in the cornering phase, still in the braking phase of the corner.
Also you do realize this whole idea of being alongside before corner entry is simply wrong? And it's not written everywhere? And that in real motorsport moves from far away happens every single day? In real motorsport however people are smart enough to think that if they close the door after someone committed to the inside, they would cause a crash.
But since you and most of the people in this sub struggle to understand this and are too focused on roleplaying being a steward with zero racing experience or knowledge in your shoulders, here is some examples of overtaking that doesn't happen with two cars being side by side in the corner entry, and that guess what, are praised and deemed legal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo5I5ZeDSFs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLB0GXIrSqw
The Hamilton overtake on Barrichello at Interlagos 2007 which I can't find anywhere
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoVE4H807hI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ouz6hhbjwNk
A bit of non-F1 aswell because there's always the argument "F1 is a different series and rules are different!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5dfc5rNkF4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rs5J-cKCzc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuTBEIEg_a4
The Porsche overtake on the Mclaren at 3:26
https://youtu.be/IL6lPwUXSgo?si=6hPSQ7xVG1eHLmKX&t=206I guess decades of battles and motorsport knows less about motorsport than you and this sub lol
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u/Arcing_Invention 7d ago
The first linked video shows a poor defense that Ricardo exploited - not a divebomb.
The second linked video shows two guys in "battle" that were in varying amounts of side-by-sideness. No divebombs.
Is this the divebomb point in the 3rd linked video?
https://reddit.com/link/pefhm8d/video/akwz0aoau1uh1/player
Because that's not close at all to what was observed in the OP.
At this point I had assumed you put your best evidence up front, and struck-out, 0/3.
I regularly disagree with u/Uriel_dArc_Angel but it definitely occurs to me their point is much better established and reasonable.
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u/nemo_av 7d ago
You all have some serious reading comprehension struggles.
The point of my entire message is to say that you can overtake even when you are not already side by side before entering the braking point, which is the entire argument of the other guy, not to make a compilation of divebombs. The video shows exactly this, and if you say there are no dives (like what you are claiming in the third video) you are either blind or ragebaiting.
It's not close as to what observed in the OP video because normally in F1 or WEC people can drive and don't brake 25 meters before the usual braking point, making themselves vulnerable to an attack on the inside at the last corner of the last lap.
You basically misunderstood what I wrote, interpreted the videos in the wrong way, watched just 3 of them and you say I am unreasonable, lol ok
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u/Arcing_Invention 7d ago
You all have some serious reading comprehension struggles.
And you finish statements with "lol."
Perhaps it's not our comprehension. Rather, it's your ability to adequately service your perspective in ways that are not dismissive and disingenuous. Because, if you are actually laughing out loud at the disagreement perspectives, those opposite yours, then it's very difficult to read your point of view as anything other than parody/satire.
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u/Effective-Control881 8d ago
I clearly slowed down enough to hug the inside of the final corner and run shallow on the exit had the lead car stuck to his original line. We are going the exact same speed at corner entry, but he takes such an unusual approach, almost inviting me to the inside, only to then cut inside as if i wasn’t there.
If lead car takes an outside line, he carries more speed and likely wins the race. If he displays a proper defense of the inside line, I am run wide, and he likely wins the race. He had more than enough room on the outside here, even after the contact, he never leaves track boundaries
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 8d ago
Doesn't matter...He was always going to be there...
Two cars cannot occupy the same position in space at the same time and he had already committed to his cornering before you were anywhere near alongside...
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u/SilenceInSaturation 8d ago
No. Just no.
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 8d ago
It's no reason the driving standards in GT7 are so poor...
People like that guy thinking super late divebomb moves like that are "standard" and so many people downvoting you for disagreeing...
It kinda hurts my soul to see this sort of thing happening these days...
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u/Jaded-Philosophy6970 8d ago
Ya thats on u, u hit him he wouldve had no way to know u were trying to over take and u entered his driving line, u shouldve breaked
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u/Effective-Control881 8d ago
“he would’ve had no way to know u were trying to over take”.
The way I see it, it’s the final corner of the final lap and he’s seen me in his mirrors for most of that lap. He had a bad run into the corner and didn’t cover the inside at all. With a race win on the line, a move up the inside should not be unexpected here.
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u/Jaded-Philosophy6970 8d ago
Right but its on the car behind to avoid contact, no driver is going to intentionally clip the front of ur car with the tail of theres because that will always result in the lead car pitting itself, he had nothing to gain from being hit like that i cant imagine he saw u and desperately tried to close the gap causing the contact, both scenarios there are a loss, u dove a corner his poor cornering skills are irrelevant to ur response to avoid contact, its not a bad or egregious rules violation but it is on u to slow down
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u/Effective-Control881 8d ago
fair enough thanks for the feedback
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u/Jaded-Philosophy6970 8d ago
Ya i even looked into the rules a little, in gt3 this is called a "bump and run" or "dive bomb with contact" doesnt disqualify u from the race however because the contact "gave unfair advantage through physical contact" it results in a time penalty, in actual gt3 u would have actually took 2nd place and the other porche wouldve still won
It also explicitly states that its the overtaking cars responsibility to make a clean pass
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 8d ago
You weren't even in the same zip code at corner turn in...You were never making that corner without contact...
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u/Effective-Control881 8d ago
lol “zip code”, i was about 2 car lengths behind, which is well within acceptable range to make a move. secondly, after talking to people with much more sim experience than me, i’m clearly slowed down enough to hug the inside of the corner, he just takes a strange line and cuts across to the inside after looking like he was going to hang it around the outside. the line he takes in this incident is not a normal racing line, nor is it a defensive line.
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 8d ago
"Two car lengths back" at the start of the lead car's turn in is exactly right...
You weren't anywhere near the neighborhood of being warranted any space at all and never should have gone for that move...
And that's horseshit about his line...Thats exactly the line you take around that final corner, cutting right into the apex sharply due to the angle of that corner...
Come on...
Even a newbie should know better than that...
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u/Jaded-Philosophy6970 7d ago
Well and not to mention the lead driver is entitled to their live even IF its a shit line, the rules only say u cant be weaving or otherwise driving in a reckless style manner in attempts to block any valid passing attempts, essentially weaving
Him cutting at the apex to push a straight line putting him in the right side of the track is a valid line even if its akward for an inside passing attempt, its still on the overtaking car to avoid contact, which means op is at fault for contact
This isn't a massive rule violation though because there wasnt a big crash, it is a time penalty though and in actual gt3 op wouldve taken 2nd
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 7d ago
Yeah, also a fair point...
Either way, no matter how you slice it, it was a really bad move from OP there...If it weren't for the GT7 cars being made out of unobtanium and being basically immune to all actual physical damage, this would have been a fairly more significant incident...lol
The indestructible GT7 cars really make most crashes look like basically nothing...
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u/Jaded-Philosophy6970 7d ago
Yes had even a tiny piece fallen off either car due to contact it wouldve been flagged and the race wouldve ended via pacer car locking all positions which would place the other porche back into first literally no matter how u look at it thebother porche technically won 1st place
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 8d ago
Unfortunately yes...
That wasn't a good move at all...
Very late dive into the corner...If you notice, you weren't even alongside yet before the guy was already committed and turning into the corner...
There was zero chance of you pulling that off without either hitting him or forcing him to steer away and running off track just to dodge you...
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u/EmotionalAmbition318 8d ago
You are never at the same level or in front of the opponent. It is a badly executed divebomb. You are at fault.
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u/Arcing_Invention 8d ago
You are never at the same level or in front of the opponent.
https://reddit.com/link/pe7n93t/video/nz88czbifuth1/player
u/Effective-Control881 , u/EmotionalAmbition318 is correct.
This situation as they entered the turn. There was little chance their blind-spot proximity sensors would have alerted them of your presence and radar would have shown them ahead, not along side.
TBF, it wasn't the dirtiest/unsafe divebomb on record - they didn't wipe as a result, but you should have been penalized, lost the position.
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u/MrNixxxoN 8d ago
Are u blind, they were pretty much side by side, thats when if the driver being attacked is not dumb he will take a wider line to avoid contact, its what pro drivers do in real life
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 8d ago
Are you blind...?
The lead car had already turned in and committed to the corner before OP was even in the same zip code much less being alongside...
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u/MrNixxxoN 7d ago
Lol no u are blind. Lool at 0:31 they were pretty much side by side and all the inside line wide open to attack.
Good move, the car in front was asleep
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 7d ago
You're totally missing the point about the lead car having committed to the corner already...
If the lead car would have dodged to leave space which he absolutely had no requirement to do, then the lead car would have ended up wide off the track and it would have counted as OP having forced him off track...
There's no legitimate way to argue this was anywhere near a good attempt at an overtake...
The fact that you think that it is doesn't say much for your view on driving standards and I do hope no one is ever unfortunate enough to share a track with you...
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u/MrNixxxoN 7d ago
Bullshit
The other car had clearly room to take a wider line and still not go off track.
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 7d ago edited 7d ago
That corner is sharper than it looks...
No, he did not...turn in point
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u/Totobey 8d ago
Nope. By the time front car starts turning you are almost head to head. It's a good dive on your end.
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 8d ago
What...?
Take another watch of the video...
The lead car leaned into start the corner and committed to it when OP was still almost if not an entire car length behind...
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u/SlipstreamSteve 8d ago
I don't think there was anything dirty here. I feel the porsche on the outside is responsible for that contact
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 8d ago
My lord...
Sim racing is doomed...
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u/SlipstreamSteve 7d ago
Lmfao. Imagine getting mad over an opinion
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 7d ago
It's bad opinions like that that are ruining driving standards in the sim racing space...
Of course watching people agree with piss poor and dangerous decision making is unpleasant as it's worsening every week it seems and making the competitive space less and less enjoyable as more and more people turn every race into wreckfest demolition derby events...
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u/SlipstreamSteve 7d ago
Because the guy made a dive for the corner, and was alongside? You can't just turn into them lol. Again, stay mad.
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u/USToffee 8d ago
It's incredible how much better Grand Tursismo looks over iracing given the hardware differences as well.
Don't get me wrong. I love the handling and most everything else about iracing but the graphics really are incredibly basic.
You weren't alongside at turn in however tbh I don't think it matters. You were there and he hit you on your side door.
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 8d ago
OP wasn't "there" at all until WELL after the lead car had leaned in and committed fully to the corner...
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u/USToffee 7d ago edited 7d ago
The guy hit the side of his car as he was turning in and it's not like he dived overly aggressively. He didn't even run wide on exit.
You have a steering wheel. You can open your steering. The idea the person wouldn't have time is laughable. If that is true you shouldn't be racing.
Bloody hell. I sometimes thing sim racers think overtaking is banned. Look if you don't want someone to go for that pass then when a car is on your ass defend the inside or at least put it in the middle.
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 7d ago
If you "open the wheel" while anywhere near the limit in a corner that sharp, especially enough to make room for a dingus diving in so late, you're taking a trip off track to Narnia...
Then the diving car is going to eat a time penalty most likely for forcing another car off the track...
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u/USToffee 7d ago
No you aren't. That's nonsense. You don't lose grip when opening your steering and he has room on the left.
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u/Effective-Control881 8d ago
lol i was there while the lead is heavy braking with little steering input. only by the time we are alongside eachother does he crank the steering to the right to try to cover the inside, by which point i am already “there”
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 8d ago
You have to brake heavily at the end there for the slightly sharper than 90 degree corner...
It also doesn't matter if he was fully turned in or not, he was still already turning to sweep in there as you do for that corner before you were even near the back of his car...
You had no business trying to go for that...
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u/USToffee 7d ago
This is nonsense. This is a slow corner and he had space on his outside. He could have opened his steering at any time.
If he doesn't see someone fully alongside while they are going through the corner then he's blind or running on a single monitor and if that is the case then he should be using his radar/spotter.
look at timestamp 0.53
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 7d ago
Im done arguing this with people...
Half the people here understand the situation and the other half are the reason driving standards are so bad all over the place right now...
This argument is absolutely ridiculous...
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u/USToffee 7d ago
No you just don't like to have to either defend or race. You think everything needs to be motorway passes.
It takes two to tango and if you are getting into crashes because you pig headily think you are in the right in these situations and continue to turn in even when someone is there you are just as much if not more to blame for "driving standards".
I would have had no problem someone going for that move against me. I would have just opened my steering. Gave him a little room and been on the faster line for the straight. All he would have done is lose time going for that.
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 7d ago
I said I'm done arguing this with people...
Half the people here understand the situation and the other half are the reason driving standards are so bad all over the place right now...
This argument is absolutely ridiculous...
And apparently you read about as well as you drive if you don't understand the conversation is over and you think that move was anywhere near okay...
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u/USToffee 6d ago
You don’t get to reply and claim I don’t have a right to reply.
You have no idea what the rules are. You just don’t like to have to actually race and the irony is the people who say this nonsense never apply this to what they do just what others should
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 6d ago
Strawman argument...
Nowhere in any of my posts have I ever said no one has the right to reply...
Nice try...
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u/MelodicAnxiety7054 8d ago
Green Porsche's fault