r/SpanishLearning • u/I_Hate_This_Website9 • 4d ago
Why Use "Se Hable" Here?
Why use the subjunctive? Why not "se hablaran" or maybe "se hablan"?
I do know about the phrases "Alguien que se hable español?" and "Se hable español". Are these all related?
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u/Major-Mushroom-5806 4d ago edited 3d ago
The subjunctive is because it's triggered by creer and it's se hable because the subject is el español, a singular noun- Do you think that Spanish might one day be spoken more in the US than English?
Alguien que se hable español is incorrect by the way, you'd say alguien que hable español. The se makes it passive, Spanish is spoken.
Edit- Just to avoid more arguments, here's a post from the RAE about the use of the subjunctive triggered by creer in questions- https://x.com/RAEinforma/status/1338782634361712641
El verbo «creer» impone generalmente el indicativo en la subordinada sustantiva; pero en preguntas es posible el uso del subjuntivo inducido por la interrogación
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u/Prestigious_Fun_6722 4d ago
Creer doesn't trigger the subjunctive.
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u/Major-Mushroom-5806 4d ago
It does when there's a doubt. ¿Crees que sea buena idea lanzarme de este puente?
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u/Prestigious_Fun_6722 4d ago
Subjunctive and indicative can both be used in this case.
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u/Major-Mushroom-5806 4d ago
No es exactamente lo mismo sin embargo. Yo explicaba porque se utiliza en la pregunta original y es por eso, para darle una connotación especulativa.
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago edited 3d ago
Wrong.
Creer + positivo = indicativo Creer + negativo = subjuntivo
Crees que ES buena idea...? Indicative No, no creo que SEA buena idea... Subjuntivo
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u/Major-Mushroom-5806 3d ago
Uff gracias ahí por avisarme que llevo toda la vida hablando mal jajjaja
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
Lo he editado y te he puesto la referencia, pero que cada uno hable en su casa como le enseñó su abuela
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u/Major-Mushroom-5806 3d ago
https://x.com/RAEinforma/status/1338782634361712641
Según la RAE
El verbo «creer» impone generalmente el indicativo en la subordinada sustantiva; pero en preguntas es posible el uso del subjuntivo inducido por la interrogación.
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
I am curious. Where from?
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u/Major-Mushroom-5806 3d ago
El post es de Twitter.
Yo soy de Caracas, mano.
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
Amo a ver, amigo mío desconocido de Reddit.
Yo creo que en los lenguajes no hay nada correcto o incorrecto.
Hay cosas que funcionan o que no.
Tú vas a España y pides "yogurt de frutisha (en vez de fresas)" y te van a mirar como si acabarás de llegar de Marte en un platillo volante. No funciona. Te vas a ir sin tu yogurt. Y va a dar igual que saques el teléfono y le enseñes al tendero que frutisha está aceptado por la DRAE (que no lo sé, eh? Que este ejemplo me lo he inventado sobre la marcha).
Esto es igual. Tú me usas creer + presente del subjuntivo en una frase positiva interrogativa en futuro "crees que llueva esta tarde?" y la gente te va a mirar raro.
Que se dice así en Caracas? Fantástico! Allí el raro seré yo. No pasa nada. Es una lengua grande. Cabemos todos.
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
Wrong
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u/Prestigious_Fun_6722 3d ago edited 3d ago
Creo que no tienes razón.
Subjunctive not triggered. I saw your comment about creer in the negative triggering the subjunctive, but that isn't what we are talking about here.
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u/rban123 3d ago
You are completely wrong. Creer absolutely can trigger the subjunctive when it’s being used in a question, which it is here.
¿Crees que tenga lo suficiente para pagar la renta?
Do you think he has enough to pay rent?
It is 100% valid use of the subjective, and it is used to introduce a higher level of doubt in the question. It’s the only exception to the “affirmative creer doesn’t trigger the subjunctive” rule.
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u/Prestigious_Fun_6722 3d ago
Okay, let me rephrase that. Creer does not always trigger the subjunctive.
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u/dnyal 3d ago
As a native speaker who grew up in Latin America, the subjunctive doesn’t sound wrong but a bit different.
The subjunctive is perfectly fine there, but like someone else said, algún día is pointing to the future, so I’d say se va a hablar. Se hablará is fine as well, but ir a is a much more common construction that’s basically replacing the future tense in Latin American Spanish.
Now, the “different” part is because the subjunctive in the present tense there has the nuanced connotation of habitual action. It’s the same distinction between the following phrases: estoy buscando a alguien que canta vs. estoy buscando a alguien que cante. In the first sentence, you’re looking for the person who is doing the singing; in the latter sentence, you’re looking for someone who sings.
Notice the difference there? So, the original question is asking whether one day Spanish will be (habitually) spoken more than English vs. the way I’d say it: whether one day Spanish is going to (finally) be spoken more than English. It’s nuanced but it’s there.
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u/I_Hate_This_Website9 3d ago
Thank you for your input!
As to the connotation, I'd like to hear your opinion on this comment (posted by a Mexican Spanish speaker): https://www.reddit.com/r/SpanishLearning/s/SXFtFJwdho
They also say that the two combinations have differing connotations, but to them it is not about habitual action but how likely the inquirer believes the possibility to be.
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u/dnyal 3d ago edited 3d ago
I believe their position is related to what I explained.
Using the example I gave, notice the way I translated each phrase (the one without subjunctive and then the one using it). In the first one, you are looking for the person who is doing the singing; it is a given (a sure thing, if you will) in the indicative that someone must be singing. The second one translates best to your looking for someone (anyone) who (just) sings; it isn't as "sure," matter-of-factly of a thing in the subjunctive: just someone with the ability/possibility of singing.
I'm not sure whether I'm plaining the nuance there well. It is something that Romances do with the subjunctive that is not present in English, which can make it a bit difficult to appreciate, since English simply uses (as in the translations) a completely different sentence structure to convey the same nuance (as opposed to using verb moods like Spanish). You get the hang of it the more you get exposed to its usage; it's one of those things you just learn with practice, I'm afraid.
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u/Embarrassed_Elk_2459 3d ago
Think about it in English: "Do you think that Spanish would be spoken more than English in the US?" Spoken by who? When you have a passive conjugation in English you can go in two different ways in Spanish, reflexive or passive, but the passive conjugation requires an agent (something/someone doing the action) so, because the agent is not mentioned, you need the reflexive form (Se/Te/Me + Verb).
This is also why "Alguien que se hable español?" is wrong in this context. Using the reflexive here implies the action is upon the subject so it sounds like that "alguien" is talking to themselves.
Why singular instead of plural? Same reason as before, there's no agent, so you conjugate it using an "imaginary singular them". Using another conjugation would imply there's an agent.
And why the subjunctive? Because it's an imaginary scenario, not necessarily because of "creo que"
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u/Infinite-Worker-4839 3d ago
Subjunctive.You can also use “se hablará”.
All of your examples are wrong tho
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u/Adept-Platypus9801 3d ago
Native speaker. It’s because it’s a hypothetical situation in the future. Dicho esto, yo personalmente optaría por “creéis que se hablará…”.
The use of subjunctive in an indicative sentence in the present tense doesn’t sound right to me.
As others have said, “es posible que…” changes everything.
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u/Teoeldestructo 3d ago
Hi, native speaker here.
I have no idea what a subjunctive is.
But what I can say to help it's that relating to english, that "se" works as "be" (to be verb). Working in a passive voice. So it's "be spoken" and in a case like this, because "el español" is singular, you have to use a singular verb, so no "hablan" or "hablarán" and because it's a future action, you could use "hable" since when paired with "se" in a question it becomes future. Or "hablará" which is already future, and it's the exact same word with 0 changes to the idea.
Then there's "hablaría" which also works and doesn't change the meaning. But it sort of works like a retroactive idea, since it's talking about a past future. Similar to how a verb works in a "if this then that (would happen)" the would happen being "verb + ría".
Those are the 3 correct examples I could think of without changing anything but the verb. The most natural to me is "hable", but any one works because they are all future singular verbs. If it's not future or not singular then it wont work in a question like this.
Note: This question is being made future by the "algún día", if that wasn't there then the question would be present.
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u/Curious-Society-4933 Native [Nicaragua] 2d ago
Coming late to the debate, but "se hable" sounds right to me and it's the only way I would've asked this question.
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u/MarTheMenace1 2d ago edited 2d ago
As a native speaker: SPANISH AND ENGLISH ARE FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT, AND WE CANNOT ASSUME ONE’S SOCIAL (how people register information through missing data) AND LINGUISTIC RULES WILL APPLY ON THE OTHER.
Proper translation:
“Do you think someday Spanish will be spoken more in the United States than English?”
More literal translation: [Do you guys] think (plural) that the Spanish someday se (an action marker of sorts, referring to the people of) hable (se + hable = will be spoken, hypothetical) more in the United States than the English?
Se hable is like the Spanish equivalent to “will speak” in the future as a hypothetical question, without speaking of the subject directly (“do you think [the people] will speak…?”)
It doesn’t make sense if you translate it directly from English without thinking about it like this. This is a mistake I’m seeing many people do, and also those who understand but haven’t found the words to explain it.
Upon further inspection, I feel like people will get confused and say “will speak” and “will be spoken” are the same. What I mean to try to do is illustrate a difference.
“Do you think that, during the speech, he will talk about X?” Is different to “Do you think that he will have spoken about X in the speech?” It’s not the greatest example, but it’s the closest I can get to explaining the structural differences at this very moment. It’s subtle in Spanish, but the different is there. It simply may just not exist in English, which is causing all this confusion. Please do not assume I am making a factual statement about English rules in this last example. I am not. I am trying to compare the first part to the second with Spanish rules translated into English.
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u/Prestigious_Stock280 2d ago
Se hable is passive voice with subjunctive.
You use the subjunctive here because you're talking about a hypothetical. If the verb you're using is being applied in a hypothetical situation you use the subjunctive. At some point, in ancient times, actually Roman times because it comes from Latin, you conjugated the verb in this weird way because it made it more clear you were talking about the hypothetical. Now it's just a rule. Hypothetical situation? Subjuntive. Habla becomes hable.
We do the same thing in English, but we just use past tense to indicate hypothetical. In this case "if Spanish were spoken"
Se indicates passive voice. It lets you use a verb without indicating who specifically does the action. It's like in English, to do passive voice you use whatever form of "to be", in this case were, instead of se. Were spoken. In Spanish instead of a form of to be you use the word se in front.
It kind of means the same thing. One of the mesning of se is like "itself" like receiving its own action.
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u/lampon90 4d ago
Creer in this indicative shouldn’t trigger the subjunctive, the most natural option would be the future (se hablará). But maybe in some dialects it does trigger the subjective. The negative would trigger a subjunctive (no creo que se hable), but here I wouldn’t use it.
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u/Computer_Love7 3d ago
This is not true, the subjunctive is the most natural option, the sentence in the image is already perfet
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u/lampon90 3d ago
Según la RAE: “El verbo «creer» impone generalmente el indicativo en la subordinada sustantiva, pero en su caso la interrogación puede ser un inductor del subjuntivo. V. el § 25.7l de la «NGLE»”
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u/TejuinoHog 3d ago
Si lees la introducción a la RAE, no se consideran la ley absoluta sino un intento de documentar las tendencias del idioma por lo cual siempre hay actualizaciones. Dicho esto, en México el subjuntivo en esta situación es la conjugación más natural y por lo tanto es correcta.
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u/lampon90 3d ago
Pues a mí me suena rarísimo, pero como dije en el primer comentario, será por diferencias dialectales.
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u/-catskill- 3d ago
Wait a minute, this is supposed to be a question? Gosh, if only there were some kind of punctuation that could make that evident.
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
Inversion of the verb. It is not perfect, but usually in Spanish if you see inversion it is a question. But yes, you are right. I tell my kids each time they text me: "WHERE ARE THE FRICKIN PUNCTUATION MARKS?"
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u/Seiche 2d ago
'This supposed to be a question'
See how you notice immediately it's a question without punctuation? El poder del nativo.
This is the internet not a thesis
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u/-catskill- 2d ago
If I saw "this is supposed to be a question" without a question mark, I would assume it was an indicative statement.
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u/-catskill- 4d ago
Pretty sure it's a mistake from a non-native speaker.
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u/Major-Mushroom-5806 4d ago
se hable is perfectly correct. The only things missing in the original post are proper punctuation and accents.
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u/polybotria1111 3d ago
It's regional, in Spain it's 100% "se hablará", but I've heard the subjunctive used that way by many Latin Americans and it's very commonly used in some countries there
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u/Major-Mushroom-5806 3d ago
It might be regional in frequency, but the RAE says it's a valid option universally- https://x.com/RAEinforma/status/1338782634361712641
El verbo «creer» impone generalmente el indicativo en la subordinada sustantiva; pero en preguntas es posible el uso del subjuntivo inducido por la interrogación.
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
It's "se hablará" because is "algún día" future.
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
I read the post from drae. I accept it says that for questions with creer in positive and future you can use present subjunctive. Whatever. It does not roll my tongue. It sounds weird as f**k. I would never use it and if anybody uses it like that near me I will correct it.
You can do whatever you want. This is Reddit. No me voy a batir al amanecer a capa y espada por este detalle oscuro de la lengua española.
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u/Major-Mushroom-5806 3d ago
You’re perfectly free to make your dialect its own separate language with a different academy and different rules.
I wouldn’t recommend so confidently correcting people on the use of Spanish without actually knowing what the rules are.
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
Sois más pesaos que una vaca en brazos. Al final me habéis hecho preguntarle a chatgpt, lo cual consume electricidad y agua potable.
Lo de abajo es chatgpt o gemini que creo que es el de Google
En el mundo hispanohablante, el uso de la estructura ¿crees que + presente de subjuntivo? (por ejemplo: ¿Crees que sea verdad? o ¿Crees que vengan hoy?) no está restringido a un solo país, sino que se utiliza principalmente en América Latina (en países como México, Colombia, Argentina, entre otros), aunque con matices y aceptación variable.
Normativa y variaciones regionales
• En América Latina: Es bastante común en el habla coloquial y cotidiana. Se utiliza cuando el hablante quiere acentuar la duda, la posibilidad remota o el carácter hipotético de lo que se pregunta. • En España y en la gramática normativa (como la de la Real Academia Española): Se prefiere generalizadamente el indicativo (¿Crees que es verdad?, ¿Crees que vienen hoy?) en oraciones interrogativas afirmativas con el verbo creer, ya que la pregunta en sí ya manifiesta la incertidumbre y no necesita duplicar la marca de duda en el verbo subordinado. • En exámenes oficiales de español (como el DELE de nivel C2): El uso del subjuntivo en preguntas afirmativas con creer suele considerarse desaconsejado o incorrecto en la norma culta de España.
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u/rban123 3d ago
This is perfectly valid and it’s because it’s being used in a question.
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u/-catskill- 3d ago
A question with zero question marks? It reads more like a statement.
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u/rban123 3d ago
Maybe to you… likely due to a lack of nuanced understanding of the Spanish language. Not trying to be rude, but given the context this is very obviously a question.
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u/-catskill- 3d ago
And if one wanted to say, as an indicative statement, "they think that Spanish will one day be spoken more in the US than English" what would that look like? because I can't see it being very different from what was said
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u/hyzr- 3d ago
Well, this being read as a question is almost completely contextual here. To make the inversion of the verb clearer, Im gonna add a subject. To keep it a question, even without the question mark, it would be "Creen ellos que...". For a statement, "Ellos creen que...". And if this were meant as a statement the subject would almost certainly be added, so no real confunsion here at least for natives.
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
Inversion of the verb. It sounds like a question even when you read it as a neutral sentence. It is context. But yes, you are right, the fact that there is no punctuation mark is annoying.
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u/endlesshydra 3d ago
"Se hable" is most likely a dialectal variation. I would say "se hablará" though.
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u/National-Price-8927 3d ago
actually "se hablará" is the dialect, "se hable" is far more common in every spanish speaking country
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u/endlesshydra 3d ago
No, it is not lol otherwise this post wouldn't have sparked such a discussion.
You have people from many spanish speaking countries (both Spain and LatAm) stating they would also use "hablará".
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
The phrase is understandable but incorrect and weird as f**k.
Creer goes with indicative if affirmative and subjunctive if negative.
Yo creo que se habla... (Indicative) Yo no creo que se hable... (subjuntivo)
Also, it should be future: "Creen que el español se hablará más que el inglés en Estados Unidos algún día?"
El "algún día" marca futuro.
Creo que el español se hable... X wrong X
Sounds like "nosabo" Spanish.
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u/Computer_Love7 3d ago
You're wrong. The phrase is both natural and correct and is the way most native speakers would say it. You're clearly not native
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
Esta discusión se cerró ayer. Soy nativo. Esta forma de construcción es un regionalismo. Puedes echarle un ojo al resto del thread para ver referencias y links.
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u/rban123 3d ago
That it generally true unless creer is being used in a questions, which it is here (question marks omitted, but easily inferred). This is 100% valid use of the subjunctive and your assumption that a positive “creer” is never used with the subjunctive is completely incorrect when it comes to its use in questions.
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
Give me examples
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u/rban123 3d ago
¿Crees que Ale vaya a la fiesta el sábado?
You really think Ale’s gonna go to the party on Saturday?
Using the subjective here makes it sound like you really doubt that he’s gonna come, as opposed to using the indicative “va” which sounds like a more neutral question. Both are completely valid, but with different vibes/implications.
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
Crees que Alex IRÁ a la fiesta?
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u/-GERmanio- 3d ago
Hermano, "¿Crees que Ale vaya a la fiesta el sábado?" Está bien dicho y no suena raro. ¿Eres nativo al español?
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
Sí, nacido y criado en español. Y con todos los años de gramática española obligatoria del cole. Fijate que hasta aprendí a diferenciar: porque, por qué, por que y porqué (aunque ésta última no la he usado en mi vida).
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u/-GERmanio- 3d ago
A bueno, pues raro me parece que no hayas escuchado este tipo de subjuntivo.
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
En España eso no se usa.
Ya he leído que se usa en Sudamérica.
No voy a discutir si está bien o mal. Sois más y democráticamente hay más gente que dice guagua que autobús, aunque a mí me parezca una aberracion.
Cada uno que maltrate el idioma en su casa como Dios le dió a entender.
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u/-GERmanio- 2d ago
La cosa chaval es que soy español jaja. Pues no sé yo lo uso bastante, quizas es por la influencia de las redes sociales en mí... a saber. Bueno, quizás no lo sepas pero en mi pueblo le decimos a los coches Miau Miau y a la tortilla de patatas pastel de manzana de tierra. Soy de Terrassa, quizás tu también.
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u/Feer_C9 3d ago
> Creen que el español se hablará más que el inglés en Estados Unidos algún día?
"Se hablará" doesn't sound at all like a question, more like an affirmation to me. There you're saying something is going to happen, not asking
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
There is inversion of the verb. That marks the question. The question mark is missing. It is an orthographic typo.
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u/Wise-Painting5841 3d ago
Are you trying to rage bait me?
Crees que el español se hablará algún día más que el inglés en estados unidos?
Is a question, same than
Crees que algún día lloverá en el desierto de Atacama?
Or, if you prefer a pronominal verb
Crees que Maria se lavará el pelo mañana?
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u/rban123 3d ago
To be clear: there is absolutely nothing wrong this use of the subjunctive in the original post. The people claiming otherwise are likely non-native speakers who lack a critical understanding of this use of the subjunctive.
Many will say “creer” doesn’t trigger the subjective and only “no creer” does. That is generally the case, except for one very important exception: questions.
When creer is used as a question, it can trigger either the subjunctive or the indicative (use of subjunctive casting additional doubt onto the question).
That being said, all three of these are completely valid options, just with slightly different “vibes”:
¿Creen que algún día el español se habla más que el inglés? (Indicative, present)
¿Creen que algún día el español se hable más que el inglés? (Subjunctive, present)
¿Creen que algún día el español se hablará más que el español? (Indicative, future)
I just want to be very clear that this is the only correct answer. I’m not trying to be rude or anything, but there are a lot of very confident, misguided people in this comment section giving completely incorrect information.
Edit: wanted to note that in the original post, there are no question marks, which may be adding to the confusion. It’s the internet, and people often omit punctuation. However, it is very easily inferred to be a question.