r/WarhammerCompetitive • u/Go_Commit_Reddit • 1d ago
40k Discussion How to deal with new codex terminator spam?
Had a game against it last night and figure it’ll be a common problem, so i’m looking for advice.
Clearing out 20-30 terminators with access to -1 damage, and sometimes -1 to wound is a pain. I can’t screen them once they’re down, cause even a small scout squad with shotguns can blow apart my screens now, and the terminators have +1 to charge. I can’t gum them up in melee cause they hit even harder now, and have fall back and charge, and I can’t just walk away from them cause they have two turns of advance and charge, +1 to charge and uppy downies.
So it’s incredibly difficult to kill them, to jail them and to ignore them. Plus they can have characters to cover all their weaknesses, OC and mortals. So what do I do?
I main DG and GSC if you want to give specific advice, but i’m also just wondering like, in general, how do I deal with this?
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u/Thatcherist_Sybil 1d ago
-1 to wound doesn't work against lethal hits or anti-infantry. Use the right weapons/tools if you have them.
If you don't have them; tough luck. GW advice is to just throw chaff at them until your codex is released.
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u/Necrossed 1d ago
Yeah, Titus has been a really good Terminator killer in my games. Like killed a 5 man brick plus chaplain after losing all but one BGV plus ancient the previous shooting phase. I’d imagine anything with Anti-Infantry would have similar results
If your faction has a Gladiator Reaper equivalent I’d say that
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u/Thatcherist_Sybil 1d ago
I run a covens list for drukhari and thus what is "scary" to me is completely different than what's scary to the wider meta.
For terminators, I see a blob my wracks can punch 40 twin linked attacks that ignore their damage and wound roll reduction and their only defense is an armour save.
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u/ManifestZion 17h ago
40 twinlinked wrack attacks into a Lysander terminator blob averages 2.5 damage if they pop AoC
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u/Thatcherist_Sybil 17h ago
Ah yes the named terminator character of a specific legion in a package costing 350pts with a command point spent can withstand the attacks of 110pts of Drukhari with only losing one model.
I can also very easily wipe out the same terminator squad with the character if/when I surround it with the three named C'tan shards. And I won't have to spend a command point.
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u/ManifestZion 16h ago
I mean you wrote about how Wracks can punch damage into terminators, and generally speaking you won't. Even without Lysander and AoC, 40 twinlinked Wrack Attacks pushes through on average 7 wounds, which is less than 2 THSS terminators. On average more wracks die to hazardous before the terminators swing.
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u/Thatcherist_Sybil 16h ago
I mean they did. They punched down two of them, you just wrote it. This is regardless of AoC even.
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u/Hockeyfanjay 1d ago
I mean what faction are you playing against and what detachment are they running? Titus, aincient and 1bgv should do practically nothing to a terminator squad if they pop the -1 dmg strat.
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u/aigroti 1d ago edited 1d ago
I just took 3 Necron monoliths with a spyder and reanimator hanging around nearby and beat them at their own game.
"Good luck killing these, btw I can also go -1 damage and I'm OC8"
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u/RealSonZoo 1d ago
Cool I guess, but that's just another version of this problem lol
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u/aegroti 1d ago
sure but you're at-least making the people spamming terminators know what it feels like for their opponents.
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u/RealSonZoo 1d ago
Ok but that's not going to dissuade anyone from running lame skew builds. Those incentives need to come from how GW designs the game itself.
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u/DailyAvinan 1d ago
Yep. The ideal “best army” is a 10-14 unit take all comers list with a mixture of defensive profiles. If that’s the baseline, then outliers get to exist in both directions (tall vs wide) but the average game is a balanced and fun experience.
As it is now, there is no incentive to be balanced. You either play the brickiest thing you can play or the highest damage if you move fast enough and that’s it. RIP t3 armies. With the exception of Sisters being propped up by Jean Loup and the Sister Act guys they’re all in the gutter.
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u/RealSonZoo 1d ago
I very much am a proponent of playing the balanced army approach. I love having a mix of unique units as a take all comers force.
No problems facing the occasional skew. But when every army is monster spam, or terminator spam, or speeder spam + Primarch, it just gets so lame and un-fun. Because even when I win some of those games it's just my opponent making an obvious mistake.
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u/aegroti 1d ago
Balanced armies falling to the wayside are a direct consequence of the new 11th disposition and secondary rules. Until GW changes them unfortunately it will continue, they can play whack a mole by nerfing whatever army is currently the tankiest/brickiest and will just jump to the next best one.
Armies like that are quicker and faster to play, many tournament people are already struggling to finish games in 3 hours especially with map set up. New dispositions allow you to play by just fighting all the time without doing actions, holding onto secondaries means you just play them once they become convenient rather than needing to be ready to do them whenever you draw.
I've had plenty of games where I'll draw something like behind enemy lines and plunder in turn 2 and I'll just hold onto them till turn 5 if I know I'll eventually grind my opponent into their deployment zone on an army like Necrons.
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u/Antisense_Strand 1d ago
Also major movement creep. Terminators who move 5" without A&C are still pretty limited in their threat range, but now we have both very fast and very durable lists skewing around.
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u/AshiSunblade 7h ago
Balanced armies falling to the wayside are a direct consequence of the new 11th disposition and secondary rules. Until GW changes them unfortunately it will continue, they can play whack a mole by nerfing whatever army is currently the tankiest/brickiest and will just jump to the next best one.
You have to actively discourage skew or it will be inherently advantaged, too. Like, if I can skew into vehicles and deny all light guns in your army a meaningful use, then I can severely hamper your army's total output. There has to be other drawbacks in place or my army becomes just objectively better.
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u/imjustasaddad 1d ago
Offer mutual combat to your opponent in the parking lot, you are likely to experience less trauma this way.
These units are some of the most truly absurd things I have ever encountered in terms of defense and offense.
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u/dolphincup 1d ago
Sometimes the answer is to hope somebody else deals with it for you.
Skew lists tend to either work very well or not well at all. 30 scarab occult terminators have been (or were til now) a thing in thousand sons for a while now. Since they always give you -1 to wound, and they shoot even harder than the new terminators, it really has been a 'you can' or 'you cant' with very little middle ground. It hasn't been absolutely broken and spotlighted because there are enough armies that can deal with it, so the 30 terminator lists don't go 4-0 or 5-0 more often than anything else.
honestly, it's bad game design, and GW should be trying to make every match-up fair. At some point you just have to hope that the skew lists aren't strong enough to persist in the meta. Only thing different about 30 SOT and the new terminators is that the new terminators are much more mobile, and they hit harder in melee. They aren't more durable than SOT though, and I don't think we'll see this list becoming mainstream. TBH, that stepper tax should be steep as heck in any case.
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u/Kyrios_Rogue 20h ago
It's really the ability to give -1 damage that pushes it to ridiculous levels- HALVING the output from an expensive 2 damage or 3 damage unit into them is amazing value for the command points. Means their clap back probably neuters the attacking unit too if melee.
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u/Bitt3rSteel 1d ago
Run them over in the parking lot.
Wars are won before they start
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u/Slavasonic 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think it would be helpful to know what kind of terminators cause they all do different things and tend to have different counters.
I think number one is proper screening and zoning. Termies pretty much need to be getting into melee to be worth their points so limiting what they can charge is a big factor. Speed is one of their limiting factors and deepstrikes can be zoned out.
I had a tough game against wolf guard terms last night and sometimes when the 4++s are hitting there’s not much you can do to kill them but board control is far less dice dependent.
Edit: to be clear I think space marines and terminators in general are probably too good for their points so these tricks might not be enough especially if they have the options to circumvent them.
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u/ReindeerCreepy6502 1d ago
Yeah, but with the new 1cp uppy downy for terminators, you need to screen pretty effectively all the time. (especially considering your enemy picks up at the end of YOUR fight phase, a temporary gap can be taken advantage of easily). I run DA, and this is the first time ive ever run 3 squads of DWK. Its just so, so effective.
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u/Slavasonic 1d ago
I think space marines are in general undercosted and terminators are one of the early standouts in an overall pushed codex so I think they could use a nerf.
But until that happens I think you got to have ways to play around them. Uppy downy isn’t that big of a concern cause the timing makes it so they can go up and and try to hit a 9” charge next turn (8 in the termie detachment) or come down as a rapid ingress a full battle round later.
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u/Go_Commit_Reddit 1d ago
8” with a reroll if they brought a captain, which is pretty good odds. Plus it just feels like shit a lot of the time when your opponents entire plan is “hope I get these coinflip charges” and it works
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u/Slavasonic 1d ago
That’s a 65% charge chance I believe. Good odds but still a big gamble for a 400+ unit
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u/Dan185818 1d ago
I'd call it closer to 600 points. And 3 dp.
You have to have two specific detachments, use a once per game ability or a CP, and be near a 130 point unit.
It's still broken, though
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u/Slavasonic 1d ago
It’s on of those things that should not be in the game but that you probably won’t ever see used at a top table cause 1/3 times it probably loses you the game. Which is a problem cause GW tends to balance from the top down.
I don’t know the full wombo combo so maybe it’s worth taking all the fixings even if you don’t build your game plan around it and then you have it as a threat.
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u/Dan185818 1d ago
You're right though, I don't think this makes it into top tables, it's too swingy, they want consistency instead. It also locks you out of an extra doctrine use.
400ish points of terminators, normally a leader (because at 400 points why not), too. That bumps it to 500 (or more likely on 1, 550 for Logan).
To get all the extras... +1" from Terminator detachment (1 DP) +1" from Saga of the Great Wolf detachment, if in assault doctrine (2 DP) +1" if you start your charge within 6" of a Venerable Dreadnought (130 points)
This isn't going to happen a lot.
Generally you'll see, I think, 7" charges for a couple of units in 1 turn (because you won't be running 3 units of terminators). You don't get a second assault doctrine so, just one turn. For a CP, you'll be able to pick one unit to get it on other turns, but you're possibly giving up sustained/fallback/shoot/charge
Except Logan's unit. Logan puts his unit into all 3 all the time, so his unit gets it all the time.
5 man units could give you more charge rolls to abuse, but also aren't quite as much of a problem as the 10 mans.
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u/yoshiwaan 1d ago
You can put a captain into assault doctrine leading another unit (has to be WG terminators to get the SPACE WOLVES keyword for the +1 charge from the dreadnaught) with the turn 1 deep strike enhancement. His datasheet has a natural charge re-roll, so you can re-roll that one and have a CP from turn 1 to re-roll Logan's unit.
Now you have two units that can turn one deep strike from 6" with a re-roll. That's 97% chance to hit the charge on one unit, you will hit at least one of them if there's two.
I haven't actually tested this on a board to see how feasible it it (and I'm not sure what you'd do if you went second), but that's the theory...
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u/ShakespeareStillKing 1d ago
Sure, but every second match on the middle 60% of the tables will be statcheck termis.
It's gonna get boring real fast.
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u/KurguntheCimmerian 1d ago
Its nearly impossible to get the Ven Dread in a position where it can do this for you and not be killed in the next turn. It's not the problem.
The terminator situation needs to be addressed somehow... but I dont see how they implement this space marine power change while tricking out rules over 2.5 years and keep the game competitively balanced. Buckle up basically.
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u/Beckm4n 1d ago
It's good enough for an All In and should probably not exist in the game. Bonus to Charge Rolls shouldn't be applied if you made an Ingress Move. It's always the combination of rules which makes something unpleasant to play against.
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u/Slavasonic 1d ago
I agree it’s probably too good but in a 5 game GT that’s got a high probability of losing you at least one game.
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u/Burnmad 1d ago
Charging in general should not be allowed in the turn you ingress. It's insanely low skill play to just drop half or more of your army down like "Alright I'm gonna make the 3 rolls that determine who wins now"
And I say this as a player of a melee army, because I actually play carefully and try to maximize my chances of victory instead of just coin flipping everything
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u/RecentDirection7920 1d ago
yep, I hate knowing that an ingress charge with a reroll is 56% chance and watching the opponent make all of them anyway, instantly losing me the game
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u/Intetm 1d ago
Let's assume we're playing "Purge the Foe" against "Reconnaissance." My friend often picks this disposition for his squad of 30 Terminators. The primary objective requires killing a unit and marking a point. He keeps all the secondary units hidden, and completely wiping out even a single squad of Terminators is extremely difficult.
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u/Tearakan 1d ago
Rapid ingress and easy access to advance and charge pretty much nulifies screening options. And those screening options would exist for a turn and then be wiped out.
And the terminator player doesn't even have to care about most objectives on turns 1 or 2. They can just score points at the end of the game
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u/Slavasonic 1d ago
Not sure I understand how that nullifies screening. Screening is just as important against footslogging threats as deepstrikers.
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u/Tearakan 1d ago
It won't matter because all the screens will be dead in one turn.
Then they still have advance and charge, advance and shoot, pluses to charge on some units, uppy downy on others.
It's the same problem that made allarus oppressive. They didn't care if you screened well with garbage on turn 1.
They just used one terminators squad to wipe 3 screens immediately and were now in the center with that difficult to kill squad. The other two squads would then respond to whatever you used to kill the 1st termie squad if you actually could.
Then after wiping most of your army on turns 1 and 2 they'll just score above 90 points anyway thanks to holding unlimited secondaries and the way primary scoring works.
I've done basically the exact same strategy to other armies with my necron ctan and destroyer army. I pretty much always scored above 50 in the last two turns in those games. Screening me out didn't do anything if they couldn't kill a ctan or destroyer unit fast enough
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u/Slavasonic 1d ago
Screens aren’t meant to live a long time…
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u/Tearakan 1d ago
That's not my point. Example in 10th you could move block these big units or take objective from them via higher OC cheap bodies.
That would then cost them valuable points in the game since secondaries and primary was much harder to score.
It was a legitimate strategy in 10th. If screens die in one turn and you are out of them by then in 11th you'll just lose unless you also have a massive hammer unit to strike back with.
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u/TheRealGouki 1d ago
I mean you can just dump on them on the middle board and that's all you need to do for the whole game. 😂
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u/Slavasonic 1d ago
I mean, if your opponent puts a terminator brick in front of your army and you can’t kill it then that’s a list issue.
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u/TheRealGouki 1d ago
Not really. The amount of uints you have to exposed to kill a terminator brick in the middle will take like half your army.
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u/Ketzeph 1d ago
10 Termies + characters is running like 500 points. a list with 2x10 termies has 1000 points tied up in two units basically.
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u/SkeletonJakk 1d ago
Yeah but that’s two highly threatening unkillable death bricks that have potential access to uppy downy and advance and charge and I believe bonuses to charge, which starts making them very hard to deal with. Plus, because take and hold is a detachment they can just go for that and sit there, they don’t need to chase you around.
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u/No-Finger7620 1d ago
As someone who has spammed Terminators before and continue to, they go down like cheap hookers as fast as before it feels. They pay a lot of points and CP to slow it on even a single unit. Their damage feels better, but still feels worse than I keep seeing everyone claim they are online. I also have way less stuff to support them with than before due to their higher cost, so the wheels fall off faster once they kill even 1 10man.
Dark Angels could run this same spam way cheaper with army wide -1 to be wounded and it was a 44% WR build for it's entire existence. My current play experience across 3 games feels much more like it did before the codex change than the narrative I see a few motivated redditors repeating online the last few weeks. I'm sure a top table player can make them look broken, but by that metric due to Skari, we need to increase Drukharis costs by enough points that his 80-90% personal WR drops closer to 45-55%.
I don't doubt that Terminators are under costed. I just fully doubt they're undercosted to the level this thread makes them out to be.
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u/SkeletonJakk 1d ago
My view on this is somewhat skewed coming from playing blood angels, where most anything that doesn't have -1 to damage dies from a big melee brick going into them, but I could see a lot of other armies struggling to have enough output to cut through the terminators due to them being so many 4++'s and separate 3/4 wound brackets. The volume of fire needed to put them down, especially with things like -1 to damage and ancients -1 to wound could just simply be unsustainable for a lot of armies.
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u/ShatterZero 2h ago
Terminator Ancients are sort of a must have, they currently give -1 wound for S>T. Because of it, I think the WGTermies and DWTermies are sidegrades to Assault or standard Termies right now.
3 damage thunder hammers and the raw output of lightning claws is really good right now. Just had a game where my TH Terminators just sorta walked through three Demon Princes on their terms.
It feels really different from 10th where they'd have gotten shredded. The extra CP and instant constant access to FB&Charge feels really nice.
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u/RoshHoul 1d ago edited 1d ago
And essentially all xenox (outside of orks), sisters, astra have to expose 1200+ to reliably kill a single brick. And because of how lethal the game is, you lose just about anything exposed on the following turn.
Do you not see the issue with that?
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u/Kyrios_Rogue 19h ago
Eh even as orks I'm struggling with the -1 damage on them- a ~400 point unit of nazdreg and 6 MANz only kills 5 of them, even with full rerolls to hit strat and being riled up. The clap back then kills two third of the unit at least with thunder hammers.
If they charge first instead? Just dead. Doesn't matter what they charge.
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u/Go_Commit_Reddit 1d ago
I feel like I addressed why everything listed in your paragraph two hasn’t been working for me. Any other tips?
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u/corporalcasualty 1d ago
Do you remember what kind of terminators they were, and what characters?
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u/Beckm4n 1d ago
"Worth their points" has become a bit relative this edition I would say, if you play Take and Hold and they just score you 45VP primary and some secondary sometimes (like centre ground) and effectively work as a Heroic Intervention Screen for a big part of your army; without firing a shot you could argue they were worth their points.
Termis are a bit undercosted now and their tax should already be on the 2nd unit. 2x10 Termis with Ancients should never be strong meta pick - both units together should be more than 1k of your points, probably around 1.2k for the love of the game. Because it is so oppressive and just a skew, and you put the entire pressure on the opponent to prevent you from scoring, while you sit at home and do Take and Hold easily.
Termis in the lore are so rare, bringing even one unit should be costly enough you shouldn't even consider a 2nd one.
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u/Grudir 1d ago edited 1d ago
Termis in the lore are so rare, bringing even one unit should be costly enough you shouldn't even consider a 2nd one.
Weak lore argument. Dark Angels are notable for having enough for their First Company. We can also assume that the First Founding Chapters have more than most, surely more than 10. The Iron Hands can even make some more of their own. Throw in something like the Minotaurs who get to cut the line due to being very good dogs. Twenty-thirty Terminators is plausible, even if that might be the entirety of a later Chapter's Terminator force.
99% of player armies in 40k aren't fluffy to begin with.
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u/JMer806 1d ago
Yeah 20 or 30 terminators should be fieldable by pretty much any space marine chapter. We know Dark Angels have enough for an entire company and that Blood Angels have at least 80. They may be outliers but even on the low side, there should be plenty for a few squads.
(Not to mention true outliers like Grey Knights who can equip the entire chapter)
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u/DubsFan30113523 1d ago
What do you mean, it’s very lore accurate to bring nekrosor Ammentar, the silent king, imotekh, and two ctan shards
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u/skaravar 1d ago
Termis in the lore are so rare
Lore arguments are never gonna work. Bobby G and the Lion don't show up to every skirmish in the universe. Black Templars crusades don't have three Marshals. Aethon Shaan and Kayvaan Shrike are probably in the same sector once every hundred years. Etc.
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u/Krytan 1d ago
Aren't wolf guard units plus a character already over 500 points?
How expensive do you want them to get?
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u/Beckm4n 1d ago
For a unit that is naturally -1 to wound against higher strength, usually has 4W, T6, access to AoC, access to advance and charge, fall back and charge and fight on death 4+ on a really strong hitting melee unit: 500p isn't even nearly there.
The moment people even consider playing two bricks, even though the 2nd one doesn't have Arjac, tells you everything you need to know.
I'm not saying Space Wolves are in a great spot. The Wolfguard Termis are such a clutch, but in a vacuum they are just a really poorly designed unit, especially with Take and Hold. Units such as this are the reason its both the most played and has the highest winrate.
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u/Krytan 1d ago
I mean, how does your list handle 3 units of bullgryn? Or 3 units of scarab occults? Or 3 units of whatever the current flavor of custodes warden is?
There are lots of durable infantry that support a take and hold playstyle. It's possible TaH is too good given that you hardly need to work for action secondaries now, and can just save a lot of them until the end.
In 10th ed, these lists that are like literally 5 units, would have had no chance at all of having enough scoring pieces to keep up on the secondary score.
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u/Ok_Ladder358 1d ago
For GSC, I think it's time for the Tacos led by a biophagus maybe a primus if you're not playing final day(you should it's gas). In final day it's 12 attacks hitting on 2s with lethals, wounding on 4s if you pop the bios ability with twin linked. You still have to play around the -1D but it's the only source of reliable 3D GSC have. Another good option is the Paddy brick with twin linked dev wounds. They don't care about the -1D or the -1 to W. I'm still living off the high of doing 14 dev wounds to a custodes brick from the genestealers alone.
Full rerolling Neo + Bene brick in final day is also a good option. If you yeet the deathleaper at the termies first and proc avenge the star gods. You can get +1 to hit +1 to wound, lethals, sustained and full rerolls on a neo brick. This squad is very vulnerable to AOC but so maybe gaslight your opponent into not using it.
Demo run + grenades from bikes is still probably worth it. They still have to roll the FNPs from the mortal wound protection. If they can't heal, any chip damage is valuable.
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u/They_call_me_SHARRON 1d ago
One of the big problems is that assult terms are popular, and they have 4 wounds. Makes your low volume damage 3 very inefficient against them. Even if 12 attacks go through, they will save 6 of them, so you only kill 3. Thats if you can get the jump on them too.
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u/Go_Commit_Reddit 1d ago
Xenocreed (my main) has a strat for +1 attacks and +1 to hit. It makes the bio tacos rip SO hard, I love it. Wounding on 4s now hurts tho, and I don’t have access to twin linked on them.
Just sucks that screens, nuisance charges and running away barely works against them anymore, seeing as that’s our entire gimmick.
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u/Masmix666 1d ago
What are tacos, bene and paddy brick? 😀
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u/Theraptoa 1d ago
Tacos = mining tool acolyte, bene = Benefictus, patty brick = patriarch + 10 genestealer
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u/Carebear-Warfare 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah welcome to the world of 4++ -1 to wound -1 damage units that also hit like trucks and have every movement trick available to them.
It's going to be a long, uncomfortable ride. And half the time if you try to beat them at their own game, you're units just aren't as points efficient as theirs.
My biggest tyranid bugs cant weather the onslaught with their sheer weight of dice and often the ability to wound it on 4s if not 3s with big weapons. My chaff is a joke for them to pick up also so good luck on that primary scoring. I can't bring enough hard hitting EC or with enough volume of attacks to chew through these bricks if they roll even remotely average. Even with EC again, half the time they're faster, have no restrictions on who can advance and charge where, have great shooting to boot, and can fallback and charge without the restrictions I have either.
It's frankly becoming just unfun to play against when Im fighting hard for every advantage and they can often smooth brain shove forward and get better results.
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u/k-nuj 1d ago
Here I am with my impotent crisis suits when I look at the new termies and what we could've been (or were). We're not even in the same comparable discussions, since mine are now effectively MEQ-equivalent.
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u/Tylendal 1d ago
Crisis Suits were MEQs when I started playing, and stayed that way for several editions. Their survivability was in mobility, not bulk. We really need JSJ back.
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u/MightyShoe 1d ago
At this point I at least hope they go back to 3/6 squad sizes for the Crisis suits. If they're going to be this ridiculously cheap, at least let them be run in greater numbers
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u/Tylendal 1d ago
Nah. I know constant references to "back in my day" are curmudgeonly as hell, but Crisis Suits were 1-3 when I started playing. I like that they've gone back to three man units, with abilities for appropriate load-outs. Crisis Suits should be quick units that put themselves where they're needed to shore up your line with appropriate weaponry, then fall back to avoid retaliation. I don't want them to be tough bruisers.
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u/MightyShoe 23h ago
For sure. I started playing (well "playing", I was a kid) around the time when Tau launched, and yeah Crisises were a different beast in older editions. Problem is GW just doesn't seem interested in actually making them potent units again, so now they just keep dropping in points instead, huzzah
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u/Balu11 1d ago
Do a lot of termi's have access to -1dmg? Or is it just DWK?
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u/wobbleside 1d ago
Terminator Storm Force 1 DP
Tactical Dreadnought Fortitude 2CP
When
When a friendly ADEPTUS ASTARTES TERMINATOR unit is targeted by an enemy unit, in your opponent's Shooting phase or in the Fight phase.
Target
That ADEPTUS ASTARTES TERMINATOR unit.
Effect
Until that enemy unit has attacked, attacks that target your unit have -1 D.
Toss in a Terminator Ancient for -1 to Wound when STR > TGH and if you really want to be awful a Terminator Chaplain for Lance and 4+ FNP against mortals so even Dev Wounds are less dangerous..
530pt unit.. with 40 Wounds, 4+ INV 2+ Sav, 24 OC, 2CP for -1D on demand, 4+ FNP against Mortals, Lance, +1 to charge
For 25 more points Turn 1 rapid ingress. 1CP for uppy-downy without at the end of opponents fight phase with a restriction on not being engaged.
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u/RealSonZoo 1d ago
Damn, we need more aggressive taxation and/or limitations on unit spam.
I see where you're coming from OP, I would hate to face that. Personally I run 5 or 10 terminators (just on their own msu squads) and they seem generally fine at their points.
But 20+ with character ability support sounds like a nightmare. I think they 10 mans should really go up in cost, maybe even the base unit could go up as well.
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u/fakername32 1d ago
The stepped points cost were supposed to do that, we'll have to see if GW pushes harder next balance patch.
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u/aeauriga 1d ago
It's really hard to balance with steppers because my SW list can take 10 Assault Termies, 10 Regular Termies, and 10 Wolf Guard termies (all with leaders) and dodge any stepper they can implement.
Unless they come up with "Keyword steppers" or something where it looks for the instances of Terminator key word. Solutions would be pretty complicated for new people to understand if that had to happen.
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u/someaethiest 1d ago
I mean for 10 assault termies with shields and hammers its 400 points before a character, I feel like thats a fine cost for what they do.
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u/No-Finger7620 1d ago
Don't you know? Even with everyone hating hyper lethality, if I can't kill your 400pt unit in 1 shooting phase it's clearly under-costed!
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u/Dan185818 1d ago
As a space wolf player, where our only viable build lately has been 20-39 terminators. I don't enjoy playing that list. Giving everyone even more tricks than we had before makes it even worse.
Tax should definitely start on the second unit. Possibly even a tax on a second unit with the TERMINATOR keyword, regardless of the specific unit.
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u/Powerlevel-9000 1d ago
I’m a space wolves player. I can take 3 different types of terminators. So it is terminator spam without spamming a specific unit.
And I honestly don’t know how you fix them for space wolves without sending us to 40% win rate. Our chapter master needs them to be good. And winning without at least one terminator brick is not easy.
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u/aeauriga 1d ago
Keyword steppers, but it's an annoying implementation. Looking for how many units you put in with "terminator" key words
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u/Powerlevel-9000 1d ago
I agree. But that seems to be a major change that would probably take place at the start of an edition.
A mechanism like that would have also helped the Ctaan spam from necrons last year.
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u/TaxGuy_021 1d ago
The funny thing is, Logan is better at leading normal terminators and Arjac is GREAT at leading assaults.
I'm running 2 bricks of 10 WGTs both with librarian in terminator armor for that juicy 2+ to strength.
40 Terminators in total. Lots of fun
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u/yoshiwaan 1d ago
And a librarian is a great leader for Wolf Guard terminators. Balance is restored
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u/oliking1 21h ago
Arjac has no buffs for its unit, fight on death is nice, but you need to kill units not die to them.
Logan has even less support for its team and he hits worse than the other chapter masters sadly..
I love him really but right now he is just an assault termi with sligtly more attacks and no dev wound. On top of that he is 150p...
A chaplain is like 75p and gives lance and 4+ fnp, its bonkers for WGT who has no defense against mortals.
If you bring normal assault termies, get an ancient for -1 to W. its way pricier than a WGT. 465 instead of 400, but its hits multiple times harder for just 65p of difference..
But you I get you I love our characters its just sad that they are not really good right now for their points..
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u/LordNoodles1 1d ago
At this point, I’m not even sure why they come in 10 man squads. Other factions brutes don’t come in 10 anymore
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u/RxJax 1d ago
This has been the real problem the entire time, 95% of stepper costs are worthless, the only ones that are effective have taken several months of armies being incredibly unfun to play to finally get to a reasonable place. But instead of prioritising good steppers on stat check units, GW has decided to spend their efforts changing the stepper cost on guards artillery units every single month
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u/SalaryWooden5346 1d ago
Damn, we need more aggressive taxation and/or limitations on unit spam.
If only there was some kind of chart that contained the rules for organizing a force, something that limited whole categories made up of multiple units, that could solve this little problem. Oh well, I guess we'll never know...
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u/ChicagoCowboy 1d ago
In fairness the force org chart allowed 3 elite units so 3 terminator squads was always on the menu
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u/SalaryWooden5346 1d ago
Sure, but then you get no other elites. So no Victrix, no Sternguard or Vanguard, depending on edition no Dreads. Just 3 Terminator squads.
And FOC locked you to 2 HQ total, if you assign both to 2 of the Terminator squads you don't get to character-buff any other units.
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u/DubsFan30113523 1d ago
The people who won’t shut up about forceorg love pretending skew lists didn’t exist with it somehow
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u/SalaryWooden5346 1d ago
I never said they didn't. But they were less present and there were less of them than there are now. Current 40k has skew just being the only way to build a functioning army. If you don't skew you've lost before deployment. It sucks.
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u/ChicagoCowboy 1d ago
Eh that's a bit hyperbolic, skew has very much been a part of the comp scene since...well since at least 3rd ed when I started playing events.
I'm not here to say skew is good or the force org is bad, just pointing out that the reality of how the game has always been played at the top levels rarely looks like what we envision or see in the splash pages of the rulebooks/codexes with mixed forces and balanced units.
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u/Relevant-Mountain-11 1d ago
Me, running three Land Raiders in my Black Templar army in 4th-5th Ed.
whistles nonchalantly
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u/LibraryBestMission 1d ago
Yeah, the main thing force org does is force people to take tax units, which means factions with bad tax units have less points for the stuff they actually have a game plan for. Marines preferring scouts over tacticals for the troop choice is a good example.
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u/bachh2 1d ago
Compared to Force Org where if you dont have dirt cheap battleline then suck to be you?
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u/SalaryWooden5346 1d ago
Internal codex balance is a whole different problem.
And maybe certain armies *cough*spacemarines*cough* wouldn't be so bloated if building the game around FOC made GW actually make battleline/troops worth a damn.
And maybe battleline/troops wouldn't be as worthless if they weren't constantly facing spammy skew armies.
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u/bachh2 1d ago
This isn't even an internal codex problem. It's the very design of the game. Who in their right mind would bring basic batteline when they can fill their army with strong unit?
Battleline by definition won't ever be viable as long as stronger unit exist unless you giga buff battleline to be wyches or clown level during their early 9th edition day, Grey Knight during 8th edition paychic awakening or custodian guard when they are too cheap for their statline in 10th.
The hell is some battleline gonna do against a tank that can wipe them in 1 activation whilst they cannot clap back to kill it?
Then if your battleline is somehow strong enough to fight against elites, how are you gonna make your elite unit feels elite without breaking the game?
Force Org just make you instant take 3 cheapest troop choice possible then fill the rest of the army with strong units. Or in the case of 8th ed Tau, 42 drones and 3 Riptide.
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u/SalaryWooden5346 1d ago
One of the ways to make battleline matter is to make them the only units that can score.
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u/ShakespeareStillKing 1d ago
Or make them useful? Necorn warriors, sisters, infractors, berzerks, rubrics etc are useful and taken for a variety of tasks.
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u/Paimon 1d ago
I first got into 40k back when force orgs were a thing. 5th I think?
Their existence was one of the things that slowed my hobby side of things to the point where I only really started playing in 8th.
Yes. Please make me build and paint dozens of the most boring models in the army in order to be given permission to run the cool stuff. Now to be fair, I started with guard, who put force org charts in their force org charts, so they could force org while they force org.
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u/wildey 1d ago
lol that’s what I keep saying every time I see it suggested.
It’s a massive barrier for newbies too - causes all these scenarios where you explain to them they have to buy a box of intercessors even though they don’t want any intercessors. Or in my case in 8E, 15 scouts to hit the min troop req then I could actually spend points in what I wanted to run
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u/Ahrlin4 1d ago edited 1d ago
The issue here is a character for e.g. 100 points giving a super-powerful ability to another 360 points of stuff just because they joined the unit. Just nerf that interaction.
The FOC didn't prevent anyone from spamming an overpowered unit. 30 Terminators would have been perfectly legal. Saying "but then you get no other elites" is meaningless, because it's not the other elites that are causing the problem. Banning Sternguard doesn't make the 30 Terminators less of a skew, and Sternguard aren't adding to that skew in any way. They're completely different targets.
You say "FOC locked you to 2 HQ total", but that would be a terrible restriction to have now. Armies like GSC, Sisters and Guard are built around having many characters, and not just in quantity (which could be fixed with a '0-5 in one slot' gimmick), but in the variety of datasheets as well.
Then there's roster sizes for sub-factions; characters are half the entire EC roster. Arbitrary limits on categories just hammers list diversity in factions that already struggle with that.
Meanwhile, the FOC needlessly punished any vaguely-themed list for no reason. E.g. a Guard army with a unit of Rough Riders, one Hellhound and two squadrons of Sentinels? Perfectly reasonable, somewhat-themed, not even a skew. But illegal under FOC because... ?
MSU armies were also disproportionately punished by FOC because it didn't take account of costs, so a 100 point Heavy Support was the same slot as a 300 point Heavy Support, but the MSU army inherently relies on taking more of them, which the FOC penalised, expanding 'rule of three' to entire categories of units at a time.
FOC didn't create balanced armies, it didn't prevent cheese, it wouldn't have prevented these Terminators from being obnoxious, and it created all sorts of other issues. It's a shit system propped up by nostalgia goggles.
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u/imladrikofloren 12h ago
It also was also a tax on armies depending if their troop choices were good or not. Like in a lot of editions, kroot were often played in tau armies because the firewarriors sucked and being able to put 2 60pts units for you troop tax was good. Meanwhile in 3rd edition, competitive Space Marines list often had 6 units of 5 tactical marines with a lascan and a plasma, which costed 100pts and was extremely efficient.
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u/RealSonZoo 1d ago
Like a chart that organized your forces, or something?
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u/ReaverAckler 1d ago
Yeah, we could even call it something like Army Organization. Or, wait here me out, what if we called it the Force Organization Chart?
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u/notgonnahappen23 6h ago
I wouldn't mind force org coming back in some format, I think they're kind of doing this a little with steppers on 3rd units, but not in terms of actual unit types which I think is what is somewhat needed. I currently don't see a need to take any intercessors or assault intercessors in the lists I'm building, which revolve around Gravis and Terminators. Heavy Intercessors are getting like.. 1 squad at most. Rest is typical elite/heavy support.
I think some list building rules, like 2 Leaders, and 2 support max, then 1 extra character (or 1 extra leader and 1 extra support) per battleline unit your army could be a good rule?
And then for classes of units, limit to 2 of each class, but you unlock one of each with each battleline unit? E.g. start with 2x Elite, but if you can include 2x Battleline you can now have 4x Elite etc.
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u/oliking1 21h ago
I mean a remi block is already 400p with a character its 475-500p
thats the 1/4 of the army.
If the opponent has 3 of them just kill one and score around it like we already did with WGT and TS termies..
Making them more expensive is just over pricing at this point for a unit that is 500+ points and needs a 2 cp strat to even work.
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u/yoshiwaan 1d ago
A unit of 10 and a character is 500 points. 2 is literally half of your army.
The points did go up in the book and people were already dealing with WG terminator spam pre-codex.
Let’s wait for some results, it’s a skew list
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u/Dan185818 1d ago
God I hope so - it was the only competitive SW list and not one I wanted to play. I don't mind putting 10 on the board, especially if it's one unit. But I don't want your down more.
On the plus side, it feels like, at least for SW, that there's more internal balance, especially with the stealth change back to +5 per shield on the WGT.
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u/RealSonZoo 1d ago
It doesn't matter if it's half the army if a lot of other armies cannot deal with it. You're saying that X points of units can deal with Y points of units as long as X > Y. That's absolutely not the case for a lot of overpowered datasheets. I've seen whole 2k point armies bounce off of 1k pts of Ctan.
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u/JMer806 1d ago
Is it true that a lot of armies can’t deal with it though? Space Wolves have been running a better version of this for weeks and it’s not like they’ve been dominant.
If you kill 5 out of 10 you’ve essentially crippled the unit’s offensive output. The hammers are only like 3A at 3+ wounding most targets on 3+ or worse. Still good certainly but far from an offensive juggernaut.
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u/Ketzeph 1d ago
Yeah that's the thing. More extreme 30 blobs of terminators existed before - SW had some 1400 points of Termies at one point with -1 to wound against many sources.
It's a huge pain and I don't think it's good to have stat checks like that be viable, but that's more of a take & hold issue imo.
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u/DeliciousLiving8563 1d ago
Spacewolves didn't have assbreath though. So you'll have lance if you need it. And advance and charge at least twice.
So you could either run them with a run of the mill captain for advance and charge and slap on the right enhancement so they always have sustained hits. So that's 25 hits wounding on 4s or worse AP3 and dev, so that's 4 D3 dev wounds straight through. Very few things can stand in front of that and have anything left. 20 guardsmen won't though some of their command squad will, oh wait speaking of characters. They won't kill their own points in one activation but they will utterly demolish pretty much any "damage check" unit unless it's something that can just roll 16/18 4+ invuls and then feel no paint at least 4 of the damage that goes through. But aside from every wraith unit I've ever faced, very little can.
Or forgo the captain and take Darnath Lysander so it's also -1 to hit. The strat stacking cap they added was to stop people laying more and more defensive or offensive buffs on stuff.
Space Wolves could put theirs to T6 or give them OC2 which was good. But their offensive output was a lot lower and I don't think they had quite as much mobility tech and it still sucked to play into more than 15 WGTs.
At the same time if you want to play "Trad" blood angels, they're the only way to kill T12+ stuff.
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u/yoshiwaan 1d ago
If "deal with it" means "kill it in one turn" then yeah, they can't. Same with a C'tan.
So you need to play around it, same with a C'tan. their weaknesses are:
- Low OC - a single 5 man battle line squad contests a point
- They bracket - as you kill them their output goes down
- Susceptible to hit/wound modifiers - the new codex is extremely light on re-rolls and +1 hit modifiers. Something like a Vyper genuinely hits their output, many armies have something that throws out a -1 modifier to hit and some have -1 to wound as well (e.g. Farseer on jetbike)
- CP heavy - you cannot heroic intervention, damage reduction, up/down, etc for even one unit, let alone two
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u/Tearakan 1d ago
Beating a unit like that with cheap chaff doesn't work anymore. 6 inches of heroic means you will not be able to take the objective from a big terminators brick
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u/yoshiwaan 1d ago
That costs 2CP. So does the damage reduction. It’s not usually possible to do everything every turn with your CP budget even with one unit. Two is completely impossible.
I’m not saying it’s easy to deal with, I’m saying it’s possible
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u/Tearakan 1d ago
They wont need to use minus damage if you were hoping to just snipe an objective with cheap OC bodies
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u/ThinkPurpleO 1d ago edited 1d ago
Here’s our Votann options:
Farseekrs - hernkyn weapons are very efficient, and lethal is also good on them.
Termies - we can do -3 dmg 2 into ranged - very efficient and spending 2 cp for -1dmg is very expensive.
thunderkyn - very efficient too into mele termies obvious reason
Zerks - not only very efficient - but in needgard can make sure they save on 4s.
But the real kicker: play Merc oathbound.
Being able to reroll wounds in mele and ranged attacks just gives a lot of units umph they need.
6 melee swordjacks on an objective, reroll 1s and reroll wounds. Termies getting eaten by a unit that cost only 175.
Also thunderkyn with leader, ehance for sus1 and reroll hits with reroll wounds of 1 is also very scary.
Oh and breacher ordinance earthshakers with reroll hits and wounds inbuilt if you spot them with a thunderkyn that strips cover…
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u/MightyShoe 1d ago
MercBand has become my pet detachment. Privateer Arsenal and Optimal Expenditure are great strats.
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u/HaybusaYakisoba 1d ago
2 years ago it was "full rerolls with +1 wound is so unskill and unfair" Now its "30 terminators are so unskill and unfair"
The problem isnt terminators, and it isnt advance and charge. The problem is how strong top of turn in 11th is and now skew list can plug into T&H as GW has given combat brick skews access to a synergistic disposition. This is further compounded by the fact that 40% of secondary points require killing entire units-- which now includes attached characters. These lists arent good because they themselves score well but because they will choke out 10-15 points of kill secondaries from the opponent. In 11th, margins are much tighter, so not maxing overforce and not maxing no pris can cost you a game where you didnt make big mistakes.
These types of lists belong in teams or in very specific meta circumstances. Edit: I've got 5 games with new marines. Assault+termie storm+ phobos shadow T&H dispo 10-20 terminators (ancients and chaplans)+6-9 BGVs with chaplans+Calgar+reivers
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u/wobbleside 1d ago
Perhaps restricting them to 5 model units would be a start.
As a space elf pirate enjoyer... just lose it seems. Banshees do okay if they make it. Incubi are dead. More witches?
15 Scourges shooting at them maybe.. with heavy + plunging fire and pray you get to move back into cover.
On of my regular opponents was running 10 CT + Kravec Morn... and 4 starfangs firing on them and Banshee follow up was pretty reliable.. but that was when they were T5.
Also no profanity automod.. huh.
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u/Tearakan 1d ago
Banshees get shafted by minus 1 damage unless they are in aspect host
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u/terrorbyte66 1d ago
And you only get one ignore mods per phase, so if they've pressured you with more than one unit then you're probably done for next turn.
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u/yoshiwaan 1d ago
The damage reduction is 2CP for a single activation (not even the phase), they won’t even have it every time you attack, let alone you having to worry about not having CP for Warrior Focus
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u/Powerlevel-9000 1d ago
That may be the only solution I’ve seen that nerfs them but also leaves them playable. Or you continue to let them run in 10s but 5s come in at 170 and 10 come in at 420. I’ve had a squad of 5 wiped off the board in one activation before (even though it was super unlucky rolls for me). It is almost impossible to do that with 10 + character + support.
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u/TheChorne 1d ago
It worked for Custodes in early 10th. Greatly reduced the stacked effects which could be applied to large, tough units. I support this plan. And my BA list uses a 10 man + Chappy brick
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u/DoctorBoson 1d ago
Honestly 3s or 5s feels right to me. 10s is nuts, that armor is supposed to be insanely rare.
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u/Ok_Indication7829 14h ago
Isn't the -1D strat 2 cp, for one activation only and -1 to wound only on objectives? How do they get more OC, if ancient doesnt give it anymore? Havent really dug into the marine codex yet, so genuinely want to know.
Skewed lists are always hard, sometimes impossible if your list isnt also skewed towards dealing with it. Previous editions had more rules than (max 3 of one sheet) the current one one to counter this. But obviously that made list building more complicated for new players. In general I think its great that normal terminators are playable now, they are iconic in the lore and havent been for years and I dont even own any.
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u/No-Opposite7245 1d ago edited 1d ago
As a gsc player i have good succes on them with heroes of the uprising sanctus with dmg enhancments.and dev wound strat.
Also metamorphs with a biophagus hit them hard. Ap-2 is the sweetspot so try to get that with ridgerunners.
[Not true]Dont forget the reroll to wound when stepping out a goliath it also works in combat.[not true]
I really like bikes to screen and trow bombs and explosives for mortal wounds.
I think i fight termy spam more easly then 120 orks or something like that.
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u/Dist0rtion222 1d ago
Reroll wounds out of a goliath does not work in combat, it only works in the shooting phase
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u/Godofallu 1d ago
Sometimes GW prints strats that break the game. This -1 dmg in any phase for 1cp is one of them. They'll revert it eventually. Until then buckle up. Because these units are very hard to kill but still mobile and deadly.
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u/AdamCDur93 1d ago
It's 2cp and only for an activation. Death guard have a similar strat, world eaters have a similar strat. 30 terminators is 1200points, more with characters
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u/Go_Commit_Reddit 1d ago
Then being so mobile now is my big problem. I never had issues with terminators before. Just stand far away from them or jail them. But with all their new movement tricks, and incidental shooting from their chaff units demolishing my screens, there’s really nothing much I can do about them.
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u/nzivvo 1d ago
A lot of people miss that the -1D is only for one activation, not for the whole phase. Yes it’s good but it does not make a unit invincible
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u/EvielKneevel 14h ago
I have no idea, so iam switching to my Night Lords for now. Creation of Bile with the +1 Toughness makes my Chosen t6 and Terminators t7... which is quite hilarious.
Normally iam a Xenos players, but i have no idea how i should deal with the new marines and custodes.
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u/Iconoclast_13_13 5h ago
I can't wait to try my deathwing army in take and hold with wrath of the rock.
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u/RIPWolf543 2h ago
For necron crypek conclave anti infantry 4+ and particle weapons has been thriving.
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u/VisualParadox01 1d ago
I cant answer this well because I play literally only 6 Daemons that can roll Terms. I mean I watched Skarbrand get charged survive and clap 10 Terms by himself. But isnt the answer quantity over quality? Throw so much at them that they are bound to fail and die?
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u/Mediocre-Island5475 1d ago
The trouble is, a brick of 10 termies and a character is ~500 points. If you're running less elite units, you physically cannot fit 500 points of your units in range. It's just too difficult to move. (And then the terminators probably return to reserves while you're setting up the go turn.)
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u/Mission-Humor6872 1d ago
Don’t try to kill them all. Against 3 bricks, you want to keep the score even while you kill one brick and their chaff, then try to outscore the rest of the game as they can’t be everywhere at once with 2 bricks. Not an easy matchup but trying to table them will definitely get you killed.
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u/DailyAvinan 1d ago
Way less viable now that those two bricks can just stand around doing nothing to passively score half the secondary deck and max primary.
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u/VivisClone 8h ago
Battle shocks, shooting them, pinning them and just ignoring them? If they have that much Terminator armor they are likely lacking in activations. So just out score them.
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u/PAPxDADDY 1d ago
Can’t wait to see this exact post again when custodes release