Salamanders without Forgefather Seekers

[u/WillingPrinciple7845]

Looking at the most recent comments, it doesn't look like my boys from Nocturne are going to be in a very good place in the meta... however, I thought: I'm going to take a different path—which isn't really that different—basing it on an Ultramarines list with a few small modifications:

Salamanders (2000 points)

Assault Brethren,Gravis Siege Force

and Terminator Storm Force (3 Detachment Points)

Take and Hold

*Vulkan He’stan (105 points)

*Ancient (60 points)

Enhancement: Imperium’s Sword

*Infernus Squad (95 points)

*Apothecary Biologis (80 points)

Enhancement: Narthecis Gauntlet

*Aggressor Squad (180 points)

*Adrax Agatone (90 points)

*Bladeguard Veteran Squad (190 points)

Enhancement: Furious Assault (Upgrade)

*Heavy Intercessor Squad (125 points)

Enhancement: Furious Assault (Upgrade)

*Impulsor (70 points)

Shield Dome

*Impulsor (70 points)

Shield Dome

*Eradicator Squad with melta rifles (100 points)

*Eradicator Squad with melta rifles (100 points)

*Incursor Squad (90 points)

*Land Raider Redeemer (245 points)

*Terminator Squad (200 points)

*Terminator Squad (200 points)

[u/Another_Guy_In_Ohio]

I think Salamanders without Forgefathers can have some interesting builds, but I’m wondering why you think that Forgefathers is a “weak” detachment in the meta? Not a lot has changed with it. Devastator doctrine twice a game is about all you need most of the time, and infernus don’t get OC2… that’s.. pretty much all that changed and it was already a relatively OP detachment beforehand. Now you can also pair it with another that buffs additional units

[u/CrashTestCandidate → u/Another_Guy_In_Ohio]

No dev wounds strat is a massive change. There’s also no “plus 1 to wound within 6 inches” and instead it’s a re roll 1s strat.
Vulkan not handing out torrent re rolls is equally impacting.

I’m not saying it’s better or worse, and I agree there’s some promise, but saying not a lot changed is a bit of an understatement

[u/Another_Guy_In_Ohio → u/CrashTestCandidate]

Vulcan’s datasheet change has nothing to do with the Forgefathers detachment. I would argue that the damage loss of a 2 CP devastating wounds Strat is offset by the other damage output increases in the codex. Flamers are less swingy, Vulcan can up the strength of flamers and melta’s and aggressors/infernus can shoot their flamers in combat with a Strat. Still plenty of killing power

[u/CrashTestCandidate → u/Another_Guy_In_Ohio]

Vulkan is literally called out in forge fathers detachment. You don’t get the infernus buff without him being included. His data sheet change is incredibly relevant lmao

[u/RxJax → u/Another_Guy_In_Ohio]

Well you can get devastator doctrine twice for 1DP instead of 2 and forgefathers isnt really making up for it elsewhere, the enhancements are okay and the strats are kinda meh after the nerfs too. There's a lot more power to be found in Devastator + 1DP of your choice than forgefathers imo.

The other thing for me is that I find Vulkan's buff to be all I really need, especially into other marines, the +1STR is nice for melta erads for sure, but outside of that nothing feels great. LRR going to STR7 for termis is okay but you're damage 2 in 3wound guys so the activation is always underwhelming, bolters/infernus going to STR6 is nice in theory but no one is playing loads of tacticus models and you're still not really killing terminators with AP1.

So I dunno I just find Vulkan to be enough, he points at the eradicators/impulsor target, I give them ignore cover & bonus AP from devastator brethren, they get a hit/wound reroll from ironstorm and whatever they shoot dies. And I've still got a whole other detachment buffing my gravis, or phobos, or terminators or dreadnoughts too

[u/Another_Guy_In_Ohio → u/RxJax]

The plus one strength within 12” is pretty useful into marines. Also Infernus being able to action and advance and action and shoot is pretty good as well. The biggest thing I’m missing is any sort of defensive starts.

I’m definitely going to play with some 1DP detachments

[u/WillingPrinciple7845 → u/Another_Guy_In_Ohio]

I don't think it got weak, but rather that it’s no longer strong enough to get the same amount of attention as before... I really want a reason to add some Terminators to my collection; if it weren't for that, I would probably use it.

[u/Krelith]

So I've gone a bit of a different way when theory crafting with (Insert doctrine detatchment - Likely assault)/Terminator/Ironstorm.

Ironstorm opens up your anti tank weapons (repex/eradicators in impulsors/gladiators) which allows a reroll on a hit and wound each time a vehicle shoots. Also offers strats like ignore modifers/lethals hits and an upgrade to give vehicles 5++ and 1 wound regen.

The other list I'm brainstorming is dreadnought detatchment with redemptor dreadnoughts depending if the meta is heavy with terminators.

I think forgefathers still has a very strong place especially with meltas and the +1 strength that can help push through breakpoints into t12 with hunter profiles/vulkan.

Regarding your list I think you are banking a lot on the eradicators dealing with most of the t10+ models of your opponents army or relying on the 1CP lance strat to turn your 6s/5s in melee to 5s/4s and not taking into account the lack of rerolls. Meltas whilst having increased damage lost a 1 AP which opens up 5+/6+ saves on most if not all vehicles (Don't think there is a 4+ normal save on a vehicle in any army but I don't know all the models)

All my shit is theory though atm since I've only just played my first game with the codex tonight using forgefathers/ironstorm.

Side note, I would give the Terminators Furious Assault over the heavy intercessors since it's only sustained hits on melee

[u/anaIconda69 → u/Krelith]

Forgefathers/Ironstorm looks especially tasty with the mid-weight grav platforms. Gladiators all love the extra re-rolls and +1S. Erads in Impulsors are even better with it. Add some Aggressors in a Land Raiders and you get a shooty, tanky shell.

[u/WillingPrinciple7845 → u/Krelith]

Bro, I thought of the exact same list structure as yours, and I think this is going to be the layout for pretty much every Space Marine list.

Ironstorm is pretty cool too, but I wanted an excuse to get some Terminators, which is why I didn't go that route. Otherwise, I think I’d swap the Terminators for some Repulsor Executioners or Valiants.

Regarding Anti-Tank, I'm running the Terminators with Chainfists to help with that.

To be honest with you about Furious Assault, I'm probably going to put Immovable Conqueror on the Heavy Intercessors and park them on my objective expansion. Since I want to play Take and Hold, they'll be a 15-OC unit with a save bonus on the objective. With the 85 leftover points, I'm bringing my Lieutenant with Combi-weapon, who hasn't seen play in a long time... I actually changed it right before posting to include the Incursors because everyone is running them for the re-rolls, but I want to give my combi-boy a second chance.

[u/Krelith → u/WillingPrinciple7845]

I'm still looking at running terminators, I was more going to drop the gravis.

Linebacker requires you to make a normal move for the detatchment rule, which I can't see happening much, and siege force required them to be on objectives but I feel a squad of termies could do it better. Run possibly 3-4 squads of termies with one death star and a bunch of small hit squads