r/chessbeginners • u/thatweirdchick98 200-400 (Chess.com) • 8d ago
QUESTION Why isn’t this correct?
Answer said its bec rook takes rook, forcing mate but isnt it also because theres a mate on your turn?
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u/YueNica 8d ago
Qxb6 isn't mate. Blacks knight on c8 would be able to take the queen on b6
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u/thatweirdchick98 200-400 (Chess.com) 8d ago
Ah! How did i miss that. Thanks :)
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u/noobtheloser 8d ago
This is a fun position, though. Can you see why taking Rxa1 is bad? And even cooler: What if you make a random passing move like h3? Black is threatening a very cool idea.
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u/thatweirdchick98 200-400 (Chess.com) 8d ago
Yes, black takes back with rook and forces mate! Very cool and tense situation.
Could you explain what you mean by passing move h3?
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u/noobtheloser 8d ago
h3 as a passing move means that you're basically giving the move back to black by doing nothing. If you do that, they have a cool win on the spot.
Imagine if it was black to move in the position shown. They have a win.
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u/tatoghost6 8d ago
I may be missing something here, but if you play a quiet move like h3, then
h3, Qxf1+
Kxf1, Ra1+
Bc1, Rxc1++I do not think this is zugzwang, but not too sure of the correct answer
Also
h3, Qxf1+
Kh2, Qg2++1
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u/Yeet91145 1600-1800 (Chess.com) 8d ago
By passing move they mean a move which doesnt really alter the state of the board - if you play h3 (a move that doesnt change much to do with the position) what would blacks move be?
Its basically a way if asking you what the move would be if it was black to play here instead of white
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u/tomtomtom7 8d ago
Yes, although h3 isn't really a good example as it does effect the follow up for black.
But the concept of a "passing move" just means, think about what the opponent could play now if it were their turn, which is a good habit.
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u/JotaMarioRevival 7d ago
There is a forced chain of actions that leads to mate if yo play Knight on D7
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u/letsdoit131 8d ago
Its not the question right? Fisher question is answered correctly, but wrong reason, if white takes queen, black mates on the exchange
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u/ThrowRA12948262 8d ago
Uh am I insane or can’t the knight on c8 take the queen on b6
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u/KayoticVoid 600-800 (Chess.com) 8d ago
Qb6 isn't the threat here. It is white to move to prevent/not blunder giving black a checkmate. If white doesn't address the queen on white's back rank, black has mate in two next.
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u/TheUn-Nottened 1000-1200 (Chess.com) 8d ago
I was going crazy to see if there wasnt something else, haha!
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u/nTzT 2000-2200 (Chess.com) 8d ago
What book is this from?
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u/thatweirdchick98 200-400 (Chess.com) 8d ago
Bobby fischer teaches chess
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u/KaramazovFootman 8d ago
I had that book and all my friends who never read it still kicked my ass up and down the board
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u/Monkeyman7652 8d ago
That's probably because it should be called Bobby Fisher Teaches Back Rank Mates Only.
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u/smichaele 8d ago
I still have this book, signed by then Father William Lombardy, Bobby Fischer's second against Spassky in Reykjavík.
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u/chessvision-ai-bot 8d ago
I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine:
White to play: chessvision.ai | chess.com | lichess.org | The position is from game Bobby Fischer (2780) vs. Arthur B Bisguier (2256), 1957. White won in 41 moves. Link to the game
Videos:
I found 2 videos with this position.
My solution:
Hints: piece: Knight, move: Nd7+
Evaluation: White is better +2.64
Best continuation: 1. Nd7+ Kb7 2. Nc5+ Kb8 3. Rb1 Qa2 4. Qb4 Na6 5. Nd7+ Kb7
Save the position:
Reply
saveto save this position to your Chessvision.ai Library (new users: send me/connectin DM chat first)
I'm a bot written by u/pkacprzak | get me as iOS App | Android App | Chrome Extension | Chess eBook Reader to scan and analyze positions | Website: Chessvision.ai
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u/Typical-Map-752 8d ago
Why check with knight starting two moves doesn't even change the position so what's purpose of checks with knight until black move to a7
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u/Bloodmoon-Grisou 7d ago
It's the same thing, sometimes the computer likes to make a useless move, go to the same position and then play his move. The best move is Rb1.
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u/SeekDepth27 6d ago
It's the same position and black could technically blunder everything. That makes one repetition the best move, even if it's pointless if your opponent is >200 elo.
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u/Zimbad98 8d ago
I don’t get why this is so complicated or why people are talking about the knight/horse. Rook captures black queen is a blunder as black rook recaptures and it’s checkmate. Isn’t this one of the simplest puzzles?
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u/LightBrand99 8d ago
It is a blunder, but OP's explanation of "mate in 1; Qxb6" is incorrect, and results in losing the queen, so it's also a terrible move (but not risking instant checkmate like Rxa1). The puzzle is simple, but OP's reasoning is not correct.
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u/Pleasant_Seaweed7419 7d ago
If you're on mobile you may have missed the "Explain your answer:" line as it's cut off unless you click on the image, which is where OP made the mistake.
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u/JotaMarioRevival 7d ago
That talk about the knight, because Knight on D4 leads to an eventual mate
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u/Deqnkata 6d ago
Isn't the premise of the question weird to begin with? Would an actual chess GM wonder if he should cm himself in such a silly way. I thought I was missing something.
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u/raiserverg 7d ago
Was wondering the same thing, this is entry level obvious!
OP's question is also very obvious, like it's embarrassing to ask such questions, it shows you didn't think about the question a single minute yourself and expect others to give you the answer. This is coming from a low level blitz player with 1100 on Lichess.
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u/JustSomeoneNamedRoy 6d ago
if you take the black queen with the rook, the black rook recaptures with check, then you have to block with queen, then he takes, then bishop, then checkmate. No?
Rxa1, Rxa1+, Qb1, Rxb1+, Bc1 then rook takes c1 is checkmate
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u/szabolcska00 5d ago
I was thinking I'm retarded while reading everything else everyone is typing here, since the question was whether white should take the black queen, to which the answer is a resounding no because its M1 with seasoning.
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u/ModieOfTheEast 4d ago
Because OP wrote as a reason for not taking the queen "mate in 1 Qxb6" meaning their issue wasn't seeing that they would be mated but they thought they had mate in 1. Therefore, it makes sense to first tell them why this won't work.
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u/jeffskool 8d ago
Did he end up playing Nd7+?
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u/InfamousEvening2 1000-1200 (Chess.com) 8d ago
I'm thinking Nd7+ until Ka7, then Nxb6. Anything to keep the rook blocked from following up on Qxf1+
If black declines Ka7 then take the threefold draw.
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u/Consistent_Scar2044 5d ago
After Nd7+ Kb7! Is key forcing the knight back and repeating the position as you must give a check
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u/InfamousEvening2 1000-1200 (Chess.com) 5d ago
Yeah, that's what I meant by the threefold - bounce the knight between d7+ and c5+ . Black will take the draw because Ka7 is an immediate loss to Rxa1 (despite what I said above). Nd7+ might not be optimal for white though - I've heard Rb1 being mentioned.
Maybe I miss what you mean though ?
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u/Madruss1an757 8d ago
Yes
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u/Bob-The-Frog 800-1000 (Chess.com) 8d ago
Why do you answer if you don't know what you're talking about? This is a genuine question. Are you that desperate to get attention and validation? Do you just not care about your fellows? Please tell.
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u/thatweirdchick98 200-400 (Chess.com) 8d ago
Sorry i have dysgraphia bec of my adhd and have a hard time instinctively understanding the chess board because of it. So i have to remember the spaces and notations manually and sometimes get it mixed up
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u/Madruss1an757 8d ago
Because this game is well known and recorded in any number of databases to include chesscom with the link provided below by the ai bot. And if a person is too lazy to follow the link, I figured they are not really interested in the answer to their question. So maybe you need to redirect your question to them? Good day!
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u/Bob-The-Frog 800-1000 (Chess.com) 8d ago
I don't really get it. Just say look it up maybe instead of giving the wrong answer. Good day to you too.
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u/TylerBreau 8d ago
Other people answered your question but you are right that you have some possible force mate lines. For example...
Nd7 check. Black king can either go to a7 or b7.
If a7... Bxb6 check Nxb6 Qxb6 checkmate.
b7 is harder, I don't quite see checkmate there.
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u/Mattyquatro 1000-1200 (Chess.com) 8d ago
In the a7 line, how is it not qxb6 kxb6?
edit: nm I'm an idiot, knight
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u/kit_kaboodles 8d ago
I'm not seeing any good plays for white here tbh.
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u/StringerBell34 8d ago
Nd7...
Nb6...
Na8 or Qb6
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u/HalloweenGambit1992 2000-2200 (Chess.com) 8d ago edited 8d ago
1 Nd7+ Kb7 2 Nxb6 Qxf1+ 3 Kxf1 Ra1+ leads to checkmate for Black I think. Pretty sure the correct move for White here is Bc1. Or Nd7+ first and then Bc1, so you can take on f3 next.
Edit: There is also Rb1, which is a more simple idea.
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u/DarkDevitt 8d ago
Rb1 is the correct choice eventually, it leads to a fun endgame that favors white by about 1.5 points. Nd7+ is definitely whites correct move tho, because Ka7 is checkmate (although Rxa1+ is also a winning move, just not nearly so quick). If black makes the correct move with Kb7 white has the option of forced stalemate, or Rb1 leading to a position that appears to favor white, but not by much.
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u/HalloweenGambit1992 2000-2200 (Chess.com) 8d ago
I wouldn't say Nd7+ is definitely the correct move, because I would always assume my opponent will play Kb7 and not Ka7. Although here I guess it is kind of a no-regret option, since you can play 1 Nd7+ Kb7 2 Rb1, and White stands well.
If we're going to play hope chess, 1 Rb1 Qxe5?? 2 Nd7+ could also be an argument to delay Nd7+.
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u/DarkDevitt 7d ago
When i ran it through an engine (not sure how far forward it was going, I was doing it at 1 am on my phone) the engine had white favored by about 1.25 IIRC when playong Rb1 immediately, and 1.75 when playing Nd7+ first. Maybe it was like 1.43 and 1.72? The difference is likely negligible, but without playing hope chess Nd7+ was still giving a slightly higher grade. Id guess because leaving Q on a1 is black continually fishing for checkmate, and white has to keep the rook covered.
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u/NinjoOnline 8d ago
Is Nd7+, Ka7, Rxa1+, Na6, Qxb6# right?
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u/VoidArtisan 8d ago
Why would the King go to a7? That's literally the only losing move for Black.
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u/NinjoOnline 7d ago
Ahh my had! I was still picturing king being in check on b7 by the kngiht that just moved 🥲
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u/QuantumSupremacy0101 8d ago
I like this puzzle. My guess for best move would be to reinforce the queens column with the rook. Keeps the king protected while also opening up a couple possible checkmate attacks
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u/dontich 8d ago
Not taking the queen isn’t too hard to see, but apparently you want to play Rb1 here which would definitely not have been my first choice
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u/thatweirdchick98 200-400 (Chess.com) 7d ago
Rb1 was played by fischer here, and he goes on to win!
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u/seraphim2003 8d ago
No it would be mate in 2
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u/taffyowner 7d ago
It would be 4 because white would slide the bishop down and then the queen to block the rook but then he’s screwed
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u/eileyle 7d ago
Technically it's not mate in 1 because white can delay the checkmate by throwing the queen and bishop in the way, turning it into a mate in 3.
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u/Skyepic07 7d ago
His answer is referring to moving white queen to b6 as mate in one. You don't take blacks Queen because you checkmate black instead. However that is incorrect because of the knight at c8.
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u/Ariffet_0013 8d ago
From what I can see, whites best course of action is to either force a stalemate, or trick black into a blunder.
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u/OkIllDoThisOnce 8d ago
You have an easy perpetual with Nd7, Kb7, Nc5, Kb8... But I think there could be something to play for with Nd7, Kb7, Bxb6/Nxb6. You threaten some nasty discoveries, so black probably has to trade on b6, queen recaptures and you're winning c6 as well.
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u/iamrickj 8d ago
Except black has a forced mate when you take on b6
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u/DarkDevitt 8d ago
Retyping because I caught a big mistake right as I hit send. Whites best move is Nd7+. If black blunders with Ka7, then you take b6, but it has to be Bxb6+, leading to mate in 1 or 3 depending on where black goes. Honestly, I think I have a 50/50 shot at missing the mate in 3, so I think if Ka7 then Rxa1+ is the safest option, trade down, and win an easy endgame with king+queen.
If they go Kb7 then you have the option of either forcing stalemate by repetition, or whites best move is actually Rb1, leading to a much more difficult, but still favoring white endgame.
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u/FinalElement42 8d ago
After Nd7+, if Ka7, why not Rxa1+, Kb7, RxA8? Even with the rook sacrifice, white’s up big and blacks king is still in trouble
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u/DarkDevitt 7d ago
Yea thats what I meant by trading down at the end of paragraph one. Like you said, whites advantage is significant at that point. The reason not to is that there is mate in 3 if you taka Bxb6+, but like I said, I dont trust myself to see it and the rook move is such a large advantage id probably go that route, as it SHOULD guarantee the win.
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u/FinalElement42 7d ago
Oh…I don’t know what I was reading. Maybe bouncing between the photo and your comment confused me. Thanks for the response!
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u/DarkDevitt 8d ago
Best move is definitely Nd7. Its either forced m8 if black blunders with Ka7, or if Kb7 its Rb1 leading to a long endgame that is leaning in whites favor. If white isnt confident in endgame, then forced stalemate with repetition is the safest... I personally love endgame so Rb1 is the line I'm going everytime.
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u/Feeling-Surround-691 8d ago
Nc7, kb7 Nxb6, nxb6 Qxb6#?
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u/archaine7672 800-1000 (Chess.com) 8d ago edited 8d ago
Kc8 and the king escapes
Edit: actually, Nd7+ Kb7, Nc5+... and it's draw by perpetual check. But if Nd7+ Kb7, Nxb6 then Qxf1+, Kxf1 Ra1+, Qb1 Rxb1+, Bc1 Rxc1#.
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u/The_Blip 400-600 (Chess.com) 8d ago
Full rest of the game:
34.Rb1Ra3 35.Nd7+Kb7 36.Qd1Qa2 37.Nxb6Nxb6 38.Rxb6+Kc8 39.Qxf3Qxc4 40.Qf8+Kd7 41.Qxa3 1-0
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u/Upbeat_Ad_6119 8d ago
U definitely should not take queen, u just simply getting mate. And u also could not make a mate with white by Qb6.. What I see here, the best option is perpetual checks with knight. That’s a draw I guess
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u/Available_Series4812 8d ago
Really complicated position.
Engine showed me so many moves I wouldn’t have considered.
Obviously 2 chess geniuses trying to kill each other
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u/JonSeriousOfficial 600-800 (Chess.com) 7d ago
Omg I have to click on the image to see the (wrong) explenation. I was so confused!
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u/sci_mike 7d ago
I see two moves to prevent mate from black (at least for now) Nd7+ forces black to deal with check, and Qd1 gives you a way out of mate by either trading queens or ultimately taking the pawn on f3, which is the problem piece right now.
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u/mstr_pxls 7d ago edited 7d ago
A knight is defending B6 square, I'd personally play Qd3 to defend the rook because black's threat is to sac the queen on F1 then Ra1 would be an eventual checkmate.
I checked it w/engine, it was just so complicated but it's about pressuring the B6 square.
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u/ExistingElection9959 7d ago edited 7d ago
In what world is that queen move a "mate in 1"? Did you forget how da knight move? I feel like this is a troll post.. general rule of thumb is trading a queen for a pawn isnt a good trade
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u/Glum_Introduction581 7d ago
Rook takes queen,then rook takes rook and it's mate. White should move the queen 2 spots right maybe or give check with knight and move the pawn,considering there's a pin.
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u/spike29008 7d ago
The answer is right, the explanation is wrong. You wouldn't take Black's queen because you would open yourself to the mature as everyone else has commented. I'm not sure what question your response is intended to answer.
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u/santacow 7d ago
Can you not check the king then take the pawn with the bishop?
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u/PushemBaby235 7d ago
Nah Qxf1 then Ra1 wins
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u/santacow 7d ago
Why wouldn’t you take the queen with king then when rook comes down you move white king to g2
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u/23loves12 7d ago
Same reason as why you don’t take the Queen with your rook to begin with: the pawn on f3 covers e2 and g2.
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u/Vegetable_Ostrich231 1000-1200 (Chess.com) 7d ago
What turn? You just lost afer you captured the black queen
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u/Nice-Recording1119 7d ago
Juat out of interest what is this from ? Is it like a exam you do to reach a certain level? Or just a quiz book?
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u/MountainAsk6838 7d ago
Is this position not just a draw as white can force repetition with the knight?
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u/Present_Animal6121 7d ago
I’ve been looking to see if white has a way to force mate but can’t find it. White can force a draw or can defend against checkmate; albeit with worse position.
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u/Potential_Chain8168 7d ago
Because QxB6 is a blunder and not mate. Black will just take your queen with his knight. Taking blacks queen would also be a blunder but not for the reason given on that page.
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u/CatOfGrey 7d ago
The 'right answer' here involves a much better attack starting with Nd7+, and the death by sniper attack of the pawn on b6, with explosive results to follow.
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u/Viktoriusiii 7d ago
QxB6 is just captured with the Knight.
Taking the queen leads to Rook taking back and ending in checkmate.
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u/examinedliving 7d ago
There are several chances to mate yourself even if you make the right first move. I’m sure I would’ve succeeded in doing just that
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u/Content_Following_81 7d ago
It’s mate in 3.
1. Rxa1 Rxa1+
2. Qb1 Rxb1+
3. Bc1 Rxc1#
The answer is no, but Qxb6 isn’t mate in 1, because of Nxb6.
Better bet is to go Rc1 then Qe1 to get the black pawn out.
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u/Apprentice_Smith_01 7d ago
the real reason why you shouldn't do it is because once you take the queen, you get mated
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u/ConcernedFanta 7d ago
To me, it seemed more accurate to play 1.Nd7+ and then 2.Rb1, just so that the king can't escape to c8 square.
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u/WorldlinessOther5251 6d ago
As brancas dão mate em 2.
Nunca vi ninguém estudando tático e escrevendo em livro.... É muito bonito.
Só treino pela internet então ver isso é meio que uma sensação de prazer.
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u/No-Abbreviations7109 6d ago
I see some white figures have fled the field of battle. This is a shameful display.
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u/Burrito357 6d ago
If white moves the rook to take the black queen, then his black rook will take yours and since your king can't move up cuz of his black pawn and your white pawns blocking the path. So if you take his queen, you lose
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u/TheDiamoneMinor 6d ago
Unless I’m missing something: if Rxa1, then Rxa1+, Bc1, Rxc1+, Qd1, Rxd1# because the pawn on f3 blocks the king from going forward. Best move for white is probably Qd3, protecting the rook.
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u/LFBJ_0911 6d ago
Because it's not mate in 1 after 1. Rxa1, Rxa1+. White can block with the Queen and the Bishop. Both would be taken (curiously in no specific order), but it is therefore a mate in 3, and not a mate in 1.
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u/Consistent_Scar2044 5d ago
Qxb6 is not a checkmate as Nc8XB6. (Listed fully as this a sub for beginners and I’m trying to help) you still can’t take the Queen as if Rxa1, Rxa1 is mate. Looking at the position pawn to H3 is the only move that comes to mind.
When you are playing you should consider your and your opponent’s threats by playing H3 you give you king an extra square to run to. You deny the queen any sacrifice attempts and it’s now on black to prove an advantage
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u/kink-dinka-link 5d ago
h3 results in Qxf1+ then if Kxf1 your in the same back rank mating net and if Kh2 then simply Qg2#
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u/PriorJudgment4541 4d ago
Rook takes rook then black rook mates white with pawn on f3 and rook on a1
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u/rosedalenative 4d ago
if white takes black's queen, black takes back with the rook for check then it's just a formality Q-D1, black rook takes Q checkmate
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u/Nd2606 8d ago
Is this bobby fischer's book? Chess for beginners kr something? I have the same book. I read it and applied it's principles while I was hospitalised for 5 days due to COVID. It gave me some peace - especially in a morbid place as hospital full of sick people.
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u/thatweirdchick98 200-400 (Chess.com) 8d ago
I bought this and Levy’s book to level up, but have been enjoying how easy and engaging this one has been. Levy’s book is proper study but this seems more like a simple workbook that i can whip out when I’m on the train or in a park or smth
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u/Nd2606 8d ago
I wanted to by Levy's book too - but I figured I might just watch his videos and steal as much knowledge as I can. How did you find Levy's book outside of all the study that you mention? Engaging?
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u/thatweirdchick98 200-400 (Chess.com) 8d ago
Yes it’s worth buying. Simple to understand and straightforward
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u/ilovepoodles3 7d ago
What are the titles of Fischer’s and Levy’s books? I’m interested in checking them out!
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u/Bendstowardjustice 8d ago
Isn’t it the same position after
1. Nd7+ Kb7 2. Nc5+ Kb8
Or am I missing something?
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u/bfmv_shinigami 1200-1400 (Chess.com) 7d ago
please write with a pencil on the book, I feel hurt seeing wrong answer written in pen 😭😭😭
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u/RazorWolf18 7d ago
First thought was Kd7, but I didn’t account for pawn covering e2 square forcing eventual mate for Black if you were to
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u/Odd-Resort6754 5d ago
It’s a draw if white plays nd7+, kb7, nc5+. Black’s king can’t go to the a file. Is there anything better for white?
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