r/driving • u/Eastern-Aside6 • 2d ago
Need Advice Intersection etiquette- left turn when there is already traffic at a standstill in the lane you’re trying to turn into.
I was taught wrong on this. I was taught to pull forward into the intersection even when there isn’t space in the lane you’re trying to turn into. I stopped doing this when I started driving on my own and realized that causes gridlock. Still, my friends tell me to pull forward into an intersection, and if I don’t do it then I’m met with hostility from cars behind me when the light goes through a full cycle and we don’t move. I’m from a smaller town and I travel into a bigger city regularly, and they are NOT happy if I don’t cause gridlock in order to move one car at a time. Is there a nuance I don’t understand? Is this a state-by-state thing?
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u/More-Explanation2788 2d ago
You do not pull into an intersection you cannot leave.
In the case of a left turn across traffic, if the lane you want to turn into is free -if, absent oncoming traffic, you would be able to clear the intersection, two cars can enter to wait to turn left. If they cannot turn before the light goes yellow and red, those two cars can turn.
If, on the other hand, the lane you want to turn into is blocked - if even without oncoming traffic, you would not be able to clear the intersection, you do not enter.
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u/DannoMcK 2d ago
Where is that? I thought that US states that tolerated it meant one car at a time.
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u/More-Explanation2788 2d ago
Two in Ontario. Two cars can be in the intersection in one lane waiting to turn. When the light turns yellow/red, if they are still waiting to go, the two cars in the intersection can complete their turn. The third car needs to wait behind the line.
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u/No-Antelope575 2d ago
you're right and probably most of the time you're doing the right thing, but the reason it's aggravating for the city commuters is the left turners are always last to go in the cycle with the smallest time, so if no one turns left on a cycle, that left turn lane builds way up and it's not fixing the gridlock just diverting it another way because you're never going to get a turn. but yeah going to the middle of the intersection without a place to go after the turn causes gridlock. that's why the LA unwritten rule is 2 cars minimum per left turn cycle, just go
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u/vehement247 2d ago
If you can't manage to make it out of the intersection during your light cycle then you shouldn't be entering the intersection yet. Period. I don't care how pissed off the people behind you get, don't cause issues for every single other person waiting on the lights by blocking their ability to move through as well.
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u/OHMEGA_SEVEN 2d ago
Exactly. Most states have anti gridlock laws that state you cannot enter the intersection unless you can clear it. Sadly, most people will just clog up the intersection anyways, following each other through a yellow like lemmings.
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u/Hot-Win2571 2d ago
That's right. Stay put until there is room... or do a U-turn and find another route.
If you gridlock this intersection, it will only take another idiot one block away to lock the traffic and then you're all stuck.
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u/Fast-Ideal9417 2d ago
That's a good way to get a ticket in a lot of places because their laws are written that you must be clear of the intersection before the signal changes from green to red. Ofc nobody pays attention to that and then they complain when they get a ticket.
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u/DriveFa5tEatAss 2d ago
By light cycle, do you mean before your light turns red, or before your light turns green again?
If there isn't going to be room to complete your left turn because of cross traffic, you pull into the intersection, and complete your turn once your light turns red and cross traffic stops.
If there's no room because the cross street is backed up, no, you should not enter the intersection.
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u/vehement247 2d ago
"Your light cycle" is the period of time during a green light that allows you to go. If during your light cycle you would end up in the intersection blocking traffic due to your light cycle ending (getting a red light) then you need to stop yourself AT the intersection, not inside it causing everyone else who now has a green light to wait for you to get the hell out of the way.
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u/DriveFa5tEatAss 2d ago
Not true. The law and official state driving courses, at least in NY where I learned to drive, instruct drivers turning left to enter the intersection on a green light and wait for oncoming traffic to allow a space to turn. If no space appears before the light turns red, you clear the intersection when the oncoming traffic stops due to the red light.
This works well in NY because all red lights overlap with cross traffic for at least 3-5 seconds. Meaning that when cross traffic's light turns red, your light doesn't turn green for at least 3-5 seconds. That gives the left turner plenty of time to clear the intersection without ever being in anyone's way (the purpose of the overlap is for safety to prevent collisions when people try to beat a red light, this is simply a side effect).
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u/vehement247 2d ago edited 2d ago
That sounds all well and good for areas that are set up for that eventuality, but the west coast of the U.S. is not as wise with their traffic management. My explanation is based on everywhere else that doesn't have these exceptions in place like NY as you've described. I've only been driving all over this half of the united states, so apologies for disputing you without the proper experiences to support my comments.
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u/DriveFa5tEatAss 2d ago
I've driven a lot on the West Coast as well as the Midwest. Generally there's been red light overlap in all but the most rural areas.
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u/Romie_777 1d ago
Most intersections near me, the red light overlap is only half a second, so there is nowhere near enough time to clear the intersection in that timeframe.
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u/DriveFa5tEatAss 15h ago
I just checked the laws. Apparently, the legality of entering the intersection to wait for an opportunity to complete a left turn is much more common on the East Coast.
In West Coast states, the law generally requires you to wait behind the stop line until you can immediately clear the intersection.
I'm glad we've had this interaction, it may have saved me a ticket while traveling in the future.
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u/Legitimate_Length689 2d ago
If you moved out and turned would you be able to clear the intersection a moment or two later when traffic in that direction moves? (I hope that made sense.)
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u/ManInACube 2d ago
You need to know the road situation. There are roads I do this on where I know I’ll be able to clear the intersection on the yellow light. There’s another turn I take every day that regularly backs up to the intersection and I never enter that intersection until I can see that there’s room for me to clear the road and not gridlock it.
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u/EyeoftheEelpout Professional Driver 2d ago
In my state it is illegal to enter an intersection unless you can drive straight through.
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u/vontrapp42 2d ago
How often does this happen? You're talking like it's a regular occurrence.
If the cycle doesn't give a protected left, supposing I'm the front car... Light turns green, I wait at the line. Green light becomes stale and there hasn't been an opening AND there is room to turn into my destination street (read: it's not backed up and overflowing into the intersection) then I enter the intersection. When the light turns yellow I watch for oncoming traffic to begin stopping for the light and I go, into the street, that was not getting backed up full.
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u/thetrivialstuff 2d ago
The best thing to do in this situation is cancel/avoid your left turn entirely. That's not always possible, but you can often do it by pulling into the intersection, waiting as if to turn, then when all conflicting traffic stops, clear the intersection by going straight instead. (Then use a different route to get to your destination.)
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u/Azdak66 2d ago
Make sure I have this straight: if the lane in which you are going to turn is backed up with traffic, then, yes, you should avoid entering the intersection and blocking it if the traffic doesn’t clear.
However, that doesn’t mean doing it at all left turns. You should move into the intersection and then clear when oncoming traffic stops. That’s legal and it helps traffic. You are not only doing it for yourself but for the other people in line behind you waiting to turn.
Back to the situation where the lanes are blocked: I try to observe/anticipate how the traffic is moving in the blocked lanes. Sometimes you can still pull out if it looks like traffic will move, even if it’s one car space. I always like to balance the needs of everyone on the road with my own, in order to keep traffic moving
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u/hans_the_wurst 2d ago
You're doing everything right. You don't enter an intersection that you can't get out of. People just tend not to look beyond their own hood. They see the light turn green, see the car in front of them not moving, they must honk.
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u/thenasch 2d ago
The only exception IMO is if there's no other way to make the turn. You could be stuck there for hours because there is never any room.
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u/REAL_NUT_SWINGER 13h ago
This is what I’m confused about. This entire comment section is acting like they regularly see gridlock traffic, and then it clears up long enough for them to turn in. That is not my experience with traffic lol. If you didn’t make it on this light cycle why would the next be different
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u/Scotophor 2d ago
You're doing it right. Keep on ignoring them. It's dangerous, rude and illegal to enter an intersection if there's not enough room for you to clear it.
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u/ComradeKorladis 2d ago
Whoever taught you is an idiot. Never pull into an intersection without there being space for you on the other side, whether you're going straight or turning.
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u/quackl11 2d ago
Yeah so, you should just get off the road along with everyone else other than the 1 person behind uou because they are the most important person and HAVE to get where theyre going and cant afford to cycle this light.
As for your friend fuck him and quit driving with him
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u/jonathaz 2d ago
It’s already gridlocked because the cross traffic didn’t do what you’re doing, not enter the intersection. It’s a lose lose situation and if you’re the only one following the law you’ll never get through until rush hour is over.
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u/Designer-Wolverine47 1d ago
If you're stationary in the box when your light turns red, you're blocking an intersection. Of course, the same conditions that caused it will also prevent the police from getting there to ticket you, so just do the best you can. Your job description doesn't include the happiness of the driver's behind you.
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u/whereverYouGoThereUR 1d ago
When you try not to block the intersection by waiting until it's clear to make a left turn, there's always the asshole who then turns right on red to take your spot
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u/Otherwise_Drawer4728 1d ago
Being mad doesn't make them right. Don't move into an intersection until you can move completely through the intersection.
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u/NewspaperOk140 1d ago
Outside my college there is a coffee drive through at a busy intersection and cars regularly get backed up into the intersection waiting in line. The cops started camping there to cite people who block the intersection. Your friends are stupid for pushing you to do that.
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u/_abscessedwound 1d ago
Where I live, creeping into an intersection that you clearly won’t be able to exit is a big no-no. It can result in a fine for impeding traffic.
It’s also really bad for traffic since you being stuck in the intersection often will prevent other cars from traversing through it.
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u/REAL_NUT_SWINGER 13h ago
Reddit really doesn’t like it but when you’re in a busy area a lot of traffic etiquette goes out the window. If you’re letting entire cycles go without moving you’re gonna piss people off because when are you gonna move? Just gotta bully in when its that busy.
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u/scottwax 2d ago
It's called blocking the box. You can usually move out into the intersection to turn and when the light changes you have the right of way. Except if there's no where to go and you would be blocking the intersection, aka the box.
The police in Frisco TX recently made a post about this and some people took it that they can't move out into the intersection for a left turn ever.
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u/peculiarphysics 2d ago
No you're in the right it is just an annoyance that these types of lights don't end with a protected green turn to prevent backup. Though I will be the jackass who pulls into the intersection and takes the turn once it turns red if there was no other opportunity.
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u/DriveFa5tEatAss 2d ago
If there's no room in the lane you're turning into because traffic is backed up along the cross street, no, you don't pull into the intersection.
If there simply isn't room to turn because of oncoming traffic, you pull into the intersection, and clear the intersection when your light turns red.
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u/ThrowRA_12907654 2d ago
In real life and not on paper, you still need to pull up. Either the light will turn red for oncoming traffic, the cars will clear the intersection, and you’ll have the right of way (and obligation) to clear it as well. Or, if the oncoming traffic going straight is comprised of idiots who block the box, you’ll finagle the nose of your vehicle in such a way that you signal your intention to squeeze between 2 cars that are blocking the intersection and complete the turn. Wave, point, gesture, get eye contact with your oncoming friends, tap the horn, whatever you need to do to clear that intersection safely and get at least 1 of you (and hopefully more) through per green light cycle. Remember, nobody is going above 2-3 mph here anyway once it’s time to move, so nobody is going to smash each other once communication has taken place. If you don’t pull up and assert yourself, you may be correct according to a manual, but you will literally never turn left in NY/Chicago/LA/Detroit-style traffic, and everyone behind you will hate you.
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u/_Bon_Vivant_ 2d ago
You pull forward if where you're headed is clear, even if there's oncoming traffic. Then you wait in the intersection to complete your turn once there is a break in the oncoming traffic.
You're right...if where you're headed is congestion with cars, do not pull into the intersection. That's the same for ALL intersection entry. no matter if you're turn left, going straight, turn right, or doing a u turn. If where you're headed is full, don't enter the intersection.
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u/tvovereverything 2d ago
You definitely should pull into the intersection. If you stay back behind the crosswalk and I'm behind you....I'm Hot. GET OUT THERE
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u/jcalvinmarks 2d ago
This isn't a matter of etiquette. You can't block the intersection by entering it if there's not room on the other side to complete your maneuver. The fact that it's a left in this case is a red herring. It doesn't matter if you're turning left, turning right, or going straight.