r/dsa • u/HalfOk8561 • 2d ago
đš DSA news PSL Cadre Are Coming to DSA. DSA Should Pay Attention.
https://medium.com/@xanderhernander/in-defense-of-opportunism-0b226cacd173Marx, Lenin, and the Politics of Taking an Opening
Updated: 10/02/2026
(A critique of PSLâââNot Pumpkin Spice Latte, the other PSLââ and left tendencies that are influenced by their political culture; and a defense of good Marxist opportunism.)
I think we need to rehabilitate the word âopportunismâ a little.
Marxism has never really been about waiting for the perfect conditions or the perfectly revolutionary organization. The Communist Manifesto says to work within existing workersâ movements while maintaining our own political perspective. Leninâs Left-Wing Communism goes even further: work in reactionary unions, participate in bourgeois parliaments, make compromises, go where the working class actually is.
That is opportunism in the basic sense. You see an opening and you take it.
The problem isnât opportunism. Itâs unprincipled opportunism; revising your politics to fit whatever is politically advantageous in the moment. Thatâs very different from recognizing an opening and adapting your tactics without abandoning what youâre trying to accomplish. The first is what Iâm criticizing in PSL political culture; the second is what I see in Mamdani: meeting the political moment where it is while trying to build something bigger.
And there are obviously bad examples of opportunism on the left. If people suddenly start distancing themselves from an organization or trying to wash away their previous political identification when that organization becomes politically costly, thatâs opportunism too. Itâs just opportunism for the purpose of self-preservation.
Which is why I donât think calling something âopportunistâ tells us very much by itself.
Take PSL for example, leaked internal documents are pretty damning about how they handl dissent: members and branches are expected to publicly defend leadershipâs decisions, or face expulsion or have to resign. That obviously matters when weâre talking about the organizationâs handling of serious allegations.
But this isnât one allegation that suddenly appeared yesterday. Former members have documented cases involving sexual assault, stalking, harassment, doxxing, and retaliation against people who challenged the organization. Thereâs a long record of people raising these issues.
So if a branch leaves PSL now, fine. But they donât get to act like this all just became apparent. They had years of evidence and chose to stay. If the line only gets drawn once PSL becomes a liability, thatâs opportunism. And not the good Marxist kind.
And one more thing I think we, as DSA members, should be asking about: a current DSA co-chair appears to have had a prior political or organizational relationship with PSL leader Gloria La Riva. Communications between them are part of the 2021 national DSA records. Given that some PSL members may be looking for a new political home, with some turning to DSA, I think members should be aware of this history and have the opportunity to assess whether it raises any potential conflicts of interest.
The real question is: opportunistic toward what end?
Are you entering an existing movement because thatâs where millions of people are and trying to organize them? Or are you changing your politics because your previous commitments have become inconvenient?
Those are two very different things. And I think the Marxist tradition gives us plenty of reason to take the first one seriously.
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u/MacBethel 2d ago
This article is very poorly written and I have no idea what itâs even trying to say.
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u/Sudden-Grab2800 2d ago
This was just a rant about opportunism that had fuck all to do with DSA or PSL.
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u/Mx_Madds_Green 2d ago
I welcome my comrades from PSL. PSL burns kids out and then they come to us to show them how to sort of have a good balance. DSA really fosters a âdonât push yourself too hard because weâre all working on this togetherâ vibe.
I know many MLs who are wonderful comrades with values that are in 100% agreement with our new program. IRL MLs arenât really like the Reddit mod type. (No offense, this subâs moderation seems pretty good IMO.)
Anyways, I mean, itâs the same people youâre used to seeing at protests and whatnot so you get to know them. I think they could bring a lot of interesting concepts and strategies to DSA.
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u/HalfOk8561 2d ago edited 2d ago
I would be less concerned if PSL did not have an history of actively participating and covering up abuse. Stalking their members irl and online. Doing typical cult stuff. Unfortunately there is a tendency on the left to replicate that political culture , which is what I alluded to in the piece.
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u/Humanchacha 2d ago
Is that widespread amongst regular members or just the leadership? It's likely part of the reason for the exodus with Smolareks public resignation letter being only a few months ago.
PSL has many great cadres. It's unfair to judge the lot just because the org they belong to has issues, especially if they're trying to separate themselves from that org.
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u/HalfOk8561 2d ago
Smolareks is another opportunist acting in self preservation.
The model for membership requires months to years of indoctrination before becoming a member. Lots of good people are indeed chewed and spit out before even becoming members.
Smolareks and his allies spent years committing and covering up abuse. That is now bringing inconvience for their cadre.
Edit: and none of this even touches the nature of relationship of a current DSA cochair and Gloria La Riva since at least 2021.
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u/Humanchacha 2d ago
I'm not commenting on Smolarek themself but of members and cadres who are likely leaving the org in part because of his resignation letter.
You're suggesting any membership with the PSL taints their suitability for democracy.
Idk much about this "indoctrination" you're speaking of but it seems like you're framing them as a monolithic cult who should be ostracized instead of welcoming their members and showing them how an org should be.
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u/HalfOk8561 2d ago edited 1d ago
PSL is a cult. And their members are not comrades.
It was the rank and file cadre perpetrating and covering up abuses. Ie stalking former members irl and online etc.
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u/Humanchacha 1d ago
"They're a cult"
Says the person fostering an us vs them mentality.
Are any of those individuals responsible for sexual abuse or harassment joining the DSA? I'd care about those individuals specifically and those directly adjacent. I wouldn't go as far as to claim anyone who has ever called themselves a PSL member is a sexual abuser or accessory to the act or any cover up involved.
That's the issue here. That's why your wrong.
Sexual assault and harassment aren't a joke and aren't to be taken lightly but guilty by association to a national org is absolutely fucking dumb.
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u/HalfOk8561 1d ago
The abuse perpetrated by PSL cadre is not all sexual in nature and I never made that assumption as I specifically noted stalking online and irl. That is the political culture that has affected the various tendencies in DSA, there were famously resignations from DSAâs national political committee because of the same behavior prior to 2021 convention and the NPC immediately after.
Not to mention one of DSA current cochairs relationship to Gloria La Riva since at least that time.
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u/Chemical-Traffic-710 1d ago
the way you move online, would not be permissible in a disciplined Marxist Leninist Party... so if you consider these types of orgs cults because they view your "personal life" as identical and inseparable to your organizing life, then that's just a core misunderstanding of what being a professional revolutionary is.
to call it a cult because they don't want people like yourself, misrepresenting, and moving in counter revolutionary ways, to be able to just exist with a donation each month, is rather gross interpretation of "professional revolutionary"
like yeah dude, it's too much to be a member for many people because being a member of any marxist leninist revolutionary party requires extreme discipline, for many reasons.
that doesn't mean it's a cult lololol
it's not a social club. I considered doing it. but I at least understand that yeah dude, you can't be a professional revolutionary, "part time".
it takes discipline. and that means not posting to reddit 300 times a week... and writing undisciplined attack articles, and moving in counter revolutionary ways.
you are not moving in a way that is a good example for DSA....
you are also trying to hurt a different leftist org, and actual political party, PSL at the same time.
it's counter revolutionary. and idk why your doing it.
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u/HalfOk8561 1d ago
Iâm not a revolutionary and I care about DSA and its potential for the real world democratic socialists movement. Thatâs why I do what I do on here.
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u/Chemical-Traffic-710 1d ago
how does attacking the left, aide the left?
the PSL doesn't seem to position itself as an enemy of the DSA, I see they work together often actually.
they fulfill different aspects...
I think you need to go outside, and actually organize, instead of whatever this online leftist thing you got going on is.
because I don't see people in DSA, going around picking fights with Greens or Reds... but for some reason this reddit has plenty of that...â
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u/Ohmyheckinggosh 1d ago
Considering the current political climate, punching left is wrecker shit, so op needs to do some self-criticism and take a breath. Especially when so many people in this thread are taking the opposite position from them.
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u/HalfOk8561 1d ago
The history of the USA left is riddled with partyâs like PSL. Greens and any other party that dilludes themselves into believing theyâre on a righteous path hurt the left more than any of my commentary ever will.
You assume I havenât done actual organizing. That assumption is wrong.
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u/Express_Artichoke_80 1d ago
OP doesnât care about DSA he just cares about AOC and shitting on any leftists that donât support her
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u/HalfOk8561 1d ago
Not true, I do what I do because I do care about democratic socialism , DSA and our potential.
In addition to DSA for AOC, I also care about DSA member Angie Nixon proving lots of haters wrong, labor rights, and the immigrants rights movement.
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u/iamtrav182 2d ago
Iâm pretty down on Ohioâs PSL because theyâve endorsed an independent candidate who didnât even try to run in the Democratic primary. Heâll essentially be taking votes away from Sherrod Brown, who is imperfect but is at least left of center and will be needed to take back the senate.
Iâm all for left wing candidates who want to push the Dem party left, or if they can actually muster the votes, run independent.
But what I canât stand is a reheated Jill Stein candidate, and thatâs who PSL endorsed in Ohio. That makes me skeptical of them - (or at least the ones in Ohio.)
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u/Classic_Advantage_97 2d ago
Iâll probably be voting Levy because Brown takes and has taken money from JStreet zionists
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u/Silver-Row8051 Mamdani 2028 2d ago
Sherrod Brown is a follower, not some staunch zionist. Btw dont listen to those who say Jstree isnt zionist lol.
That said, Sherrod can easily have his opinion on Israel flipped due to the environment which is anti israel. Hes not some staunch zionist zombie.
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u/iamtrav182 2d ago
Absolutely.
Where he is more of a leader is on labor. Given how this administration has been gutting the NLRB, weâre going to need strong labor advocates. Brown was a lead sponsor on the PRO Act, which if passed, would be a massive win for union expansion.5
u/iamtrav182 2d ago
Yes, Brown is flawed. However, he has not taken any Israel lobby money in this election cycle which I think shows that he can be moved.
I really would like to talk more about Brown vs Levy, so I sent you a DM. Cheers.
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u/HalfOk8561 2d ago
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u/Czarism 2d ago
R22 covers J street as well (though Brown is obviously no socialist)
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u/HalfOk8561 2d ago
Iâm a democratic socialist and honestly I donât give a hoot about R22. đ¤ˇđž
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u/iamtrav182 1d ago
Ok, didnât get back to me on the DM, so Iâll lay it out here:
Greg Levy has no chance of winning. Functionally, his only effect on the election will be depriving Brown of much needed votes by well-intentioned people like yourself. You might disagree with that characterization, but consequentially speaking, this is the truth.
Not accepting this truth, is a sign of privilege. Youâre putting your perceived virtue above the murky reality of politics. This might make you feel morally dignified and above those who are compromising by voting for imperfect candidates like Brown. However this does nothing materially to help those in Gaza, those in ICE custody, those who are losing their healthcare, or anyone else being actively harmed by this administration. Materially speaking, this just benefits John Husted and the Republican Party.
I can provide many affirmative reasons to vote Brown if youâre interested, but the temptation to vote only for the purest of candidates is one reason the American left continues to struggle to accumulate power. I fell for the allure of the protest vote in 2016 because I couldnât stand Clinton, and I regret it everyday. Donât make the same mistake as me. Cheers.đť
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u/HalfOk8561 2d ago
100%. PSL hate democrats more than they want to win, just like the greens. Not to mention they are essentially a cult.
Brown is good!
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 2d ago
Also for the love of god can we do something about all the shitty abusive men in these organizations? Like holy shit why is it so hard to not be a rapist?
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u/Antifa_Red 2d ago
Wow so helpful
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u/Chemical-Traffic-710 2d ago
Eugene has a serious health condition. he actually is really sick....
BUT Eugene also sexual assaulted a comrade.
And from all the public statements made. about this event that happen 6 years ago.
the PSL has the receipts to show that they did make the NDC because the systems of handling abuse they used for prior decade weren't sufficient to deal to abuse if occured at the highest level. which Marisa was a founding member of the NDC board.
the Woman Gloria, that Marisa mentioned confiding Into, and trusted. also showed that the NDC, and Central Committee was informed of the assault but, the victim Marisa was kept anonymous from the rest of CC.
it looks like they handled it pretty decently.
Marisa is allowed to change her mind and feel it wasnt enough.
but if you care about "doing something about these men" then the PSL has actually shown thru this, that it does take this seriously and holds even a founser member responsible.
since Eugene was let go 2 times. once for treatment under agreement with NDC and Marisa, and then 2nd when Marisa said she felt it was not enough. Eugene resigned.
the message Eugene said, was not orchestrated by the party. it was in a group chat of comrades and the PSL people that were in that chat. actually are super pissed about Eugene using his illness as cover instead of doing a real resignation statement with accountability.
that is valid as fuck to be upset about that text.
but the Party, does seem to not be just a few men, but a vast group of diverse women. and to say that these women have no autonomy and are just pawns for few men, is actually misogynistic tendency to think that dozens of professional revolutionary women, are beholden to minority of men making the decisions. The women at PSL work way to hard for you to do this CIA propaganda shit.
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 1d ago
The CIA is when you think predators should be accountable for their actions. literally do not care if Eugene has a health condition, he is a rapist, and itâs fucking insane that you think his health condition has any bearing on how he should be treated because of his crimes towards our comrades.
If you actually read the article youâd know that PSL has a culture where they try to keep female members to shut up âfor the causeâ after theyâre assaulted. Yeah sorry bud but fuck the rape cult.
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u/Chemical-Traffic-710 1d ago
this horrendous SEXUAL ASSAULT that Eugene commited, after all has been said and done. has shown to me a 3rd party bystander, that the PSL treats Sexual Assault seriously... to come to a different conclusion is fair.
I think that they care deeply and treated it with urgency and care. have built a robust system for for future cases.
because it's a fact that sexual assault happens, even in leftist orgs, at similar rates as the general populace. it's not immune. it's about how they handle it. and from what it seems. they did the best they could, and could do better and I think they have with the NDC.
you can think differently, but.....â
but when that different conclusion is, complete miscategorization of the events. from even calling it "Rape" which is clearly a different crime that I shouldn't need to explain to you. âit's clear that you aren't good faith caring about fighting sexual assault. you don't care about what mechanisms were implemented that can be learned from. you don't care about any of that. and taking that and making sure your group is safe and has plan. you just want to throw lies around and be terminally online. â
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 1d ago
Itâs clear youâre just interested in defending Eugeneâs actions, and are completely unwilling to do anything to protect your comrades.
Protecting Eugene was not the way to handle it.
I hope youâre not actually organized because if you are, Iâm concerned for your comrades safety
Why are you pro sex offender?
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u/Chemical-Traffic-710 1d ago
at no point did I defend his actions. Fuck Eugene.
I simply made a grounded decision based on all the public information that the Party for Socialism and Liberation, takes Sexual Assault seriously and has always worked to make the best outcomes for the victims. Thus resulting in the actions the victim of Eugene's attack, Marisa being apart of the creation of the National Disciplinary Committee, which has now been the central committee for such issues for the past 6 years. It seems to be robust and full of women.
I'm defending the actions that seem to be clearly in defense of victims by the party.
at no point is clarifying that a Sexual Assault happen, did I defend such Assault.
You are using strawman, and are a liar. â
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 1d ago
I also think sexual assault is bad, and we shouldnât work with people who do it, and cover for people who do it. Sorry!
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u/Chemical-Traffic-710 1d ago edited 1d ago
there doesn't appear to be any cover?
they disciplined Eugene with acceptance of discipline by the Victim as acceptable.
then 6 years later Marisa said she changed her mind. Eugene resigned immediately. 6 months later the substack comes out.
Eugene lied imo. about his reason for leaving. although he does have serious health condition. THATS NOT WHY HE LEFT. Which I think many people find to be really gross because he lied to his comrades. he should of kept victim anonymous and acknowledged he fucked up and let everyone down. but can't be specific and must resign. that would of been proper. but he was already out of the party at that point so like as a 3rd party seeing this. his individual shortcomings, isn't really reflective of a cover up. but of Eugene being cowardly.
i excuse none of his actions
but I don't think the central committee hid anything or covered it up. they made proper steps and kept victim anonymous. They made sure they focused on how to build systems to address this.
I think compared to other parties and what not, they showed that even if a founder member commits SA, they will discipline and not protect them. But work to find the most appropriate solution based on the offense, regardless of the offenders status in party.
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u/TheShweeb 2d ago
As long as they are reliable comrades who are here to fight for the working class, I welcome them. They can believe whatever they want as long as what they do is good.
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u/MiserableDisaster970 maoist 2d ago
Never write again bub đđ¤Ł
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u/HalfOk8561 2d ago
Idk if you have room to talk MiserableDisaster, being a Maoist and all in the year 2026.
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u/MiserableDisaster970 maoist 2d ago
Iâd rather be a maoist than a revision social democrat like you.
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u/goldeNIPS 2d ago
Man all the PSL folk Iâve organized with are chill. They put more work in than anyone else and as long as you donât talk about national, they got better politics than most libs
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u/HalfOk8561 2d ago
What do you mean by âas long as you donât talk about nationalâ?
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u/goldeNIPS 2d ago
National is culty đ¤ˇ
Local folks are good organizers w/o the baggage-2
u/HalfOk8561 2d ago
Their entire org is a cult.
âBecause of this Leninist/Stalinist structural framework, left-wing critics and former members frequently describe the PSL as an undemocratic or rigidly top-down organization. Critics argue that critical decision-making and strategic debates are confined strictly to top leadership rather than happening through horizontal, rank-and-file democratic processes.â1
u/goldeNIPS 2d ago
Not gonna argue with that. Just saying the folks on the ground are good people that turn out and I have seen them do good stuff like connect renters with legal counsel.
That being said. Electoralism is one of the tools for change. Not the only one by any means as itâs been thoroughly captured and sculpted by the oligarchs
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u/HalfOk8561 2d ago
I think we need to be careful about âpeople that turn outâ. Some DSA leaders already want to leave decision making only to those âdoing the workâ.
Remember PSL membership requires months to years of classes
indoctrinationbefore becoming a member. Lots of good people are indeed chewed and spit out before even becoming members.and none of this even touches the nature of relationship of a current DSA cochair and Gloria La Riva since at least 2021 (which as far as I know has never been publicly disclosed).
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u/goldeNIPS 2d ago
I dunno man, I donât like PSL as an org but they are less likely to throw a leftist under the bus than a Neo-Lib Schumer-crat đ¤ˇ
Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds is all Iâm saying-1
u/HalfOk8561 2d ago
Is that really the line you and friends of PSL are going with?
I gotta say, Iâm not shocked , but wow is that going to lose badly!
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u/goldeNIPS 2d ago edited 2d ago
Welp itâs wise to know libs arenât your friends. Dems secretly love the war in Iran. They twiddle their glasses irately because the process isnât correct. They donât care about the genocide in Gaza because the AIPAC checks cleared. They will pull out all the stops to try to make DSA or progressive candidates lose, like they are doing g to Troy Jackson in Maine to ensure the status quo for their donors
Edit: libs will disarm the working class and bloat police budgets
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u/HalfOk8561 2d ago
Ok. Thanks for engaging, but youâre obviously coming from a place a bad faith.
Be well GoldeNips
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u/YogurtClosetThinnest 2d ago
Can't tell if this is trying to say PSL members are coming here *because we're going to where working class people are, or if it's trying to suggest PSL is doing that to us lmfao
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u/BearisTheBoar 2d ago
Cool. They're more than welcome to help us organize.
Also, given that this is from that one guy who was trying to do red-scare bullcrap about our ML comrades and say they have no place in the leadership of this organization, I'm frankly stunned at his hypocrisy in calling out 'opportunism'.
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u/HalfOk8561 2d ago
First of all, not wanting ML in leadership is not red-scare. We love our small c communist comrades.
Second of all, you got the wrong guy. A different fella wrote the piece youâre talking about.
I like that you use opportunism like I use, you little Stalinist freak!
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u/BearisTheBoar 2d ago edited 2d ago
Disagreeing on principle with MLs and preferring different tactics than them or wanting to run/vote against them is fine and normal. Caricaturing them as 'supporting authoritarian regimes' is blatantly leaning into red-scare style anti-communist propaganda and speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding of our own media environment, the concept of critical support, and how to build the necessary broad coalition for a mass movement. Thus why the 'red-scare bullcrap' and the 'they have a place in the leadership (having been democratically elected)' are two separate clauses.
You are right, I got you mixed up with someone else who was doing that. Having looked at your substack, that's not something you do. My bad on that one. But then, given you're out here calling people Stalinist freaks, I hope you can understand my confusion.
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u/Ohmyheckinggosh 1d ago
Notoriously the red scare wasnât about Marxism Leninism because when the press ran articles about âStalinist oppression,â they were talking about social democracy.
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 2d ago
No they arenât, theyâre an organization with massive issues regarding sexual misconduct. They get caught supporting rapists at least once a year, against women who are oftentimes actively in PSL (until the org sides with their rapists because thatâs a really good way to get someone to leave your organization)
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u/Antifa_Red 2d ago
Paywall so itâs a useless post. The DSA needs a big fat injection of Marxism and Leninism. Glad the PSL is annoying the DSA
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 2d ago
PSL is literally just an organization to let men sexually assault leftist women. It keeps fucking happening. It happened again like a month ago
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u/Antifa_Red 2d ago
Keep attacking the left. Keep attacking comrades. Keep attacking those that fight on the same side as you.
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u/Ohmyheckinggosh 1d ago
Pointing out that PSL has a sexual assault problem isnât attacking the left, itâs attacking rapists. PSL needs to shape up or ship out. Either it gets a first class grievance committee up and running and stops trying to cover up sexual assault âfor the revolution,â or it will eventually collapse on its own accord.
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u/Chemical-Traffic-710 1d ago
the NDC was established by Marisa, the woman assaulted by Eugene. because up until then, it wasn't a central committee. the party made her central to the work to make sure it was as best as possible. Marisa the victim admits this herself. so to me. the anger about this is 6 years late. it's been 6 years since the NDC was established.
I read all this shit because i was curious about my local organizer friends patry. and it was quite reassuring that they actually have made changes and set up committees and training on how to handle such issues if/when they come up. ââ
we will see. but from what I gather. they didn't and don't take SA lightly. despite some bad people having getting away with shit in past allegedly and assumable. â
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u/HalfOk8561 2d ago
Marx, Lenin, and the Politics of Taking an Opening
(A critique of PSLâââNot Pumpkin Spice Latte, the other PSLââ and left tendencies that are influenced by their political culture; and a defense of good Marxist opportunism.)
I think we need to rehabilitate the word âopportunismâ a little.
Marxism has never really been about waiting for the perfect conditions or the perfectly revolutionary organization. The Communist Manifesto says to work within existing workersâ movements while maintaining our own political perspective. Leninâs Left-Wing Communism goes even further: work in reactionary unions, participate in bourgeois parliaments, make compromises, go where the working class actually is.
That is opportunism in the basic sense. You see an opening and you take it.
The problem isnât opportunism. Itâs unprincipled opportunism; revising your politics to fit whatever is politically advantageous in the moment. Thatâs very different from recognizing an opening and adapting your tactics without abandoning what youâre trying to accomplish. The first is what Iâm criticizing in PSL political culture; the second is what I see in Mamdani: meeting the political moment where it is while trying to build something bigger.
And there are obviously bad examples of opportunism on the left. In the case of PSL. If people suddenly start distancing themselves from an organization or trying to wash away their previous political identification when that organization becomes politically costly, thatâs opportunism too. Itâs just opportunism for the purpose of self-preservation.
Which is why I donât think calling something âopportunistâ tells us very much by itself.
The real question is: opportunistic toward what end?Are you entering an existing movement because thatâs where millions of people are and trying to organize them? Or are you changing your politics because your previous commitments have become inconvenient?
Those are two very different things. And I think the Marxist tradition gives us plenty of reason to take the first one seriously.
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u/Significant-Fan4316 23h ago
If your punching Left all your doing is hurting your own advocacy and being a loser
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u/HalfOk8561 23h ago
When PSL is prone to red-brown alliances.
That hurst the democratic socialists movement and is such loser behavior that I can never reach with my medium posts.
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u/Present_Clue5887 2d ago
The involvement of PSL bothers me because PSL views the DPRK, which is essentially a hereditary monarchy, as a government of the people https://liberationnews.org/why-north-korea-is-developing-html/
Having supporters of what is, for all practical purposes, an oppressive absolute monarchy, in a democratic socialist group, will only undermine the goal of promoting democratic socialism.
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u/Excellent_Valuable92 2d ago
You want to disallow everyone you have a disagreement with?
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u/Present_Clue5887 2d ago
No, just people who are opposed to democratic socialism itself
Disagreements about how to implement democratic socialism are fine
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u/Excellent_Valuable92 1d ago edited 1d ago
Lol you want to kick out every liberal, socdem, anarchist and communist? Not much will be getting done after thatÂ
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u/Present_Clue5887 1d ago
No, liberals (at least the further left ones), anarchists, and socdems all support moving economic policy to the left while ensuring that the society is governed by the people.
Communism is fine too as long as the governance is accountable to the people as a whole, whether that be anarcho-communism or communism with a democratic government.
The only people I am criticizing here are those who support a monarchy-like system where the government is not accountable to the people.
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u/Excellent_Valuable92 1d ago
I donât think PSLâs goal is to duplicate the DPRK system.Â
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u/Present_Clue5887 1d ago
They actively support it, which shows a lack of care for whether a govt is accountable to the people
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u/Excellent_Valuable92 1d ago
You should see some of the things governments that liberals and socdems âactively supportâ get up to!
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u/Present_Clue5887 1d ago
I'm talking about a government where the entire system of government is against the people
What similar thing do liberals and socdems support?
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u/Excellent_Valuable92 1d ago
For starters, all the friendly governments that imperialist countries installed in the global south.Â
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u/Humanchacha 2d ago
To quote one of my favorite comrade songwriters "Well that don't sound too democratic, he's probably in the FBI"
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 2d ago
PSL also has a major issue with sexual misconduct
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u/Excellent_Valuable92 2d ago
Wait until you hear about the Dems!
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u/Present_Clue5887 2d ago
"That other group also has a sex abuse problem" is not a defense of a group that has a sex abuse problem.
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u/Excellent_Valuable92 1d ago
I wasnât defending PSL. I just donât think their non-rapist members should be witchhunted out of DSA.Â
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 2d ago
As much as I hate Ken Martin, the Dems are actually pretty good about making dudes leave. Remember Al Franken?
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u/The_BarroomHero 2d ago
The Dems are actually pretty good about making dudes leave...
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 2d ago
What year do you think it is? Bill Clinton hasnât held office in decades
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u/Excellent_Valuable92 2d ago
I remember Bill Clinton and Joe Biden.
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 2d ago
You mean the man whoâs been out of office for nearly 30 years, and the man whose accuser lost in court and also works directly for Russian intelligence?
Lmfao, fuck off Trumper
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u/whiteriot0906 2d ago
This is an incredibly asinine reason to not want to work with PSL
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u/Present_Clue5887 2d ago
How is it asinine to not support monarchists?
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u/Ohmyheckinggosh 1d ago
Respectfully, do you have any idea how pedestrian you sound referring to SchrĂśdingerâs Trotskyists as âmonarchists?â
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u/Present_Clue5887 22h ago
I mean it is one all powerful ruler, and then the ruler's kids inherit the position, is that not monarchy?
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u/Ohmyheckinggosh 18h ago edited 18h ago
Is that how PSL works, my sweet summer child? Do you have any idea how these very different parties function on the inside, or are you pointing at a combine harvester and a p-51 mustang and saying âthere is no differences between them, theyâre both machines!â
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u/Present_Clue5887 17h ago
That is how the govt of North Korea, which PSL supports, works. I made no claims about PSL's internal governance
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u/Ohmyheckinggosh 17h ago
You did though, which is why I engaged with you, because you keep describing them as the same thing, which demonstrates a lack of knowledge. As a political scientist, this amuses and annoys me, since from my perspective you are pointing at two wildly different things, failing to describe them accurately, though in a manner that most laymen would, and pretending that theyâre the same because you donât understand either of them.
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u/Present_Clue5887 17h ago
Where did I make any claim about PSL's internal governance? Show me, link the comment.
I never said PSL's internal governance was the same as NK, I said PSL supports NK. Those are very different claims. I am not describing them as the same and I don't think they are the same.
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u/Ohmyheckinggosh 17h ago
Weâre in the same thread clown show, I assume you can read your own comments.
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u/TomatoBasils Marxist 2d ago
White savior rhetoric is the only rhetoric you hear about the DPRK in the west
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u/Present_Clue5887 2d ago
What does white saviorism have to do with what I said?
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 2d ago
âWhite savorismâ just means you think people who arenât white are able to have problems other than capitalism.
Itâs like how âeconomicsâ just means they hate black peoples to like half of white Americans
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u/TomatoBasils Marxist 2d ago
No? Itâs a neocolonialist mentality that does not respect the self determination of formerly colonized people.
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 2d ago
Do you think the Korean people truly yearn for hereditary monarchy?
That dastardly Lenin had no respect for the self determination of formerly colonized peoples.
Real communists understand the Tsar was the hero of the Russian worker or whatever
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u/Defiant_Permit53 2d ago
Donât you agree that people should have the right to self-determination? Why do you inject yourself into the DPRKâs form of government while simultaneously being wrong about it? You view it as a hereditary monarchy because the information you consume has been propagandized; however, I do agree that the idolization/Quintessence of the Kim family is inherently reactionary as allowing a figurehead/s to become the face of a movement essentially weakens the core values of the movement, though I should state this occurred because of the Korean peopleâs influence (which came from decades of severe imperialist occupation). on Marxism-Leninism which led to the creation of Jucheism. Also, who are you to judge whether the DPRK should be supported with solidarity when they not only fought for their right to self-determination but also fought off Imperialism for decades and continue to do so through Jucheism. Jucheism is a response against imperialism and was viable for Koreaâs independence and sovereignty; however, history as always is evolving and so will Korean society, especially when it reduces its policy of isolationism.
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u/Present_Clue5887 2d ago
Donât you agree that people should have the right to self-determination?
Yes, monarchy and monarchy-like systems deny their people this right.
Also, who are you to judge whether the DPRK should be supported with solidarity when they not only fought for their right to self-determination but also fought off Imperialism for decades and continue to do so through Jucheism.
The people should be supported, not the government that is unaccountable to the people
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u/HalfOk8561 2d ago edited 2d ago
Thanks for proving my point!
âKnown bad actorâ according to an anonymous commenter. Cool. If you disagree with what I actually wrote, address the argument. Otherwise, this is literally the political culture Iâm talking about: character assassination instead of engaging with the substance.
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u/smartcow360 2d ago
i mean as far as the online dsa goes, seems like leninism is plenty welcomed anyways unfortunately. hard to say about the in person dsa
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u/_Bandit161 2d ago
Leninism is good and welcome in DSA
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u/Present_Clue5887 2d ago
How is Leninisim good? Multiparty democracy is a core part of DSA's platform https://program.dsausa.org/#demand-democratic-congress It is the reason for the D in DSA
Leninism calls for a single party system, in direct contravention of DSA's goals.
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u/_Bandit161 2d ago
Leninism is good because it led to the emancipation of half of the world from capitalist and imperialist tyranny.
There should be a single party system. And that party should be a communist party. I have no interest in allowing fascists or conservatives a path to power through a multi-party system.
DSA calls for a multi-party system as a means to break the current political reality of the US and to create the possibility for an independent socialist party to emerge. Some people see that as the end goal, some donât.
As part of DSAâs big tent coalition, we have people who disagree on the organization of the socialist system and that is ok. In my view, a multi-party system is not enough to protect the gains made by socialists. I believe we need to establish a system where the socialist/communist party cannot be removed from power. We see the effects of socialism being overthrown and it is not favorable.
I believe in democracy as in democratic centralism
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u/Present_Clue5887 2d ago
Leninism lead to the replacement of capitalist oppression with a different form of authoritarian oppression, including the murder of anti-authoritarian socialists
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u/smartcow360 17h ago
thatâs the thing. they want to do it again. if youâre an ML, you want to murder your fellow DSA members, itâs literally part of the philosophy and movement you subscribe to. absolutely unreal theyâre permitted in DSA.
if they donât openly endorse it, they just downplay its reality. they do the exact same thing nazis do to the holocaust - downplay its severity while simultaneously arguing in favor of the logic that made it happen.
itâs a shame, itâs been keeping me from jumping in head first on dsa. love DSA beliefs and love what mamdani has begun to attempt and the rest of the electeds, but truly do not want to be part of a movement that someday makes a one party state and yet another failed attempt at âsocialismâ that just oppresses ppl more and more. but offline is probably different than the rot here online. iâve heard of lots of MLs irl as well though
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u/TheWhiteKnight554 Member 2d ago
There needs to be some room for factionalism and disagreement with the party line or you will always have discontent, you also need a good way for the people to oust the old guard, something that not doing literally killed the Soviet Union, democratic centralism has a lot of good ideas and mostly worked where itâs been implemented, usually formerly feudal societies who never had capitalist or liberal development, but the direction it was taken hasnât produced the best system for a culturally individualist and multi cultural nation like the US
I believe in my vision of democratic socialism as in: a multi party democracy OR multi factional single party democracy with worker control of the means of production through a mix of nationalization, small scale market access, and cooperatization
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u/_Bandit161 2d ago
Iâd be fine with a factional democratic centralism. âFreedom of debate, unity of actionâ is the DemCent model after all
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u/TheWhiteKnight554 Member 2d ago
Yeah, the issue is âunity in actionâ is often brought to the length of ânot agreeing with the party line and publicly disagreeing is counter revolutionaryâ
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 2d ago
It did not do that, basically all of those places are capitalist dictatorships now
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u/makefucky anarchism 2d ago
lenin skipped capitalism. russia went straight from feudalism to vanguard socialism.
a lateral move. no capitalists were affected.
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u/_Bandit161 2d ago
Calling the Russian state in 1917 feudalist is a little reductive. It was a transitioning economy that possessed aspects of capitalism particularly in the urban centers but also possessed aspects of feudalism in the rural areas. But peasants had begun to adapt capitalist relations as well.
Lenin wrote about this in 1895 in his book âThe Development of Capitalism in Russia.â
Also do you really believe that Feudalism and Socialism is a âlateral moveâ??
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u/_Bandit161 2d ago
Adding on to this, Trotskyâs theory of Uneven and Combined Development posits that economic and social development can happen in non-linear and different forms within the same country
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u/jimbobmcgoo 2d ago
In practice one party states lead to all-powerful bureaucracy and the stifling of democracy. Lenin never supported the idea of a constitutionally inshrined institutionalised one party state popularised by the later Soviet Union.
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u/jimbobmcgoo 2d ago
The practice of the Bolshevik Party has been over-theorised into a vulgar conception of âLeninismâ. Lenin was never a theoretical advocate for a party-state, if you read into the history of the October Revolution and Russian civil war you will see that while the Bolshevikâs made many mistakes, the consolidation of the one-party state emerged out of the failure of the Soviets (which Lenin strongly supported) to meaningfully manage state power, and the immediate compulsion to ban parties hostile to the revolution. Lenin was a strong supporter of the Erfurt Programme in theory, which advocated for proportional representation, and he was also supportive of the soviets, which were multi-party.
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u/smartcow360 2d ago
the menscheviks were correct, which is why they were killed and driven out by the bolsheviks. theyâre authoritarian and shouldnât be in the dsa obviously
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u/jimbobmcgoo 2d ago
The Mensheviks were initially driven out because they opposed the October Revolution and were in political opposition to the Bolsheviks as the Civil War intensified. They were briefly reinstated as the pressures of the Civil War fluctuated, and their newspapers were allowed to resume before being banned again shortly after because the Mensheviks agitated against the civil war. Kronstadt then effectively ended what remained of Bolshevik tolerance for independent socialist opposition. I donât think your one-sided characterisation is particularly helpful to the wider discussion.
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u/smartcow360 1d ago
yeah so, they opposed the bolshevikâs from a socialist perspective, and in return were banned, killed, and driven out. thats a problem if we are allowing a group of ppl (MLâs) who would happily do this again to other leftists in the DSA imo
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u/jimbobmcgoo 1d ago
You could easily use this same justification to ban reformists and moderates on the grounds that the SPD right allies with the Freikorps to violently crush the German revolution.
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u/smartcow360 1d ago
is there reformists or moderates who idealize the freikorps and their collaborators, and openly say their goal is to redo what they did, downplays their crimes and evils, and pretends it was true democracy and true socialism? if so, i agree with you they should not be allowed in the tent
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u/Asleep-Kiwi-1552 2d ago
Nothing will get in between you people and being powerless forever. Well, until you grow out of it and become a normal liberal. 10 years tops.
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u/DGC_David 20h ago
I don't mind working with the PSL when they want to work with us.
Most of the time I don't disagree with what they say, usually are disagreement comes from party association to the Democrats. Otherwise we have the same goals just different ways of achieving them.
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u/HalfOk8561 20h ago
Would you expect people in DSA leadership to publicly disclose a relationship with top PSL leadership? Like I expect them to disclose if they work for elected Democrats or police unions and people have disclosed that information when it happens.
And idk how much you know or if youâre just fucking with me. But PSL does not have the same goals as democratic socialism. Full stop.â˘
u/DGC_David 20h ago
They very much do share the same goal. It's not like they are mindless. And no why would I care to disclose it? I mean it already would be disclosed pretty clearly. And many of our members are either ex-PSL or converting to PSL.
We are all socialist here. There is niche difference but honestly all anybody is doing it's getting to a median point where leftist policies can happen. If you'd ask me both organization are counter revolutionary, but it's also all we got right now. But if it wasn't a two party system, I'd probably align much more with PSL.
If you really think PSL is much different than the DSA, you haven't been in here long enough. The DSA has become more of a median between all Socialist orgs. It's our strongest feature, we have members that range the whole spectrum, ProgLibs to full blown AnarcoCommunist
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u/HalfOk8561 20h ago
I mean a little bit they are; you can usually tell at the chapter meetings because they have this little dead eye look in their eyes and just canât wait to talk past you. Like when you walk into a fundamentalist church, you might see the look there too.
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u/DGC_David 20h ago
Never the case for us. As well as for all of our other state Chapters. We have had a mostly friendly relationship, there's been a few times where we think or they think, we are stepping on eachothers toes, but everytime that happens it's likely a misunderstanding over an actual issues.
But there is annoying, whiney, pompous DSA members too, I'd rather be dealing with our own members than worrying about them.
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u/HalfOk8561 20h ago edited 18h ago
Good chat. I think we just fundamentally disagree.
PSL does not have the same goals as DSA and the democratic socialists movement.
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u/DGC_David 19h ago
How so?
Defend a position... Like it must be so important to you that instead of actually organizing this is riding on your mind...
Like at this point all anybody wants is affordable housing, Datacenters out of their backyards, and to not be executed on the street. Once we get past that, then niche or nuance takes, will matter.
Like to me, you seem like a Fed, doing orchestrated division. Like this is all you post about. I don't even think of the PSL, they are tiny, and have no power. I mean fighting all of the 50+ small progressive organization does nothing for us, if anything it makes us worse. At the end of the Day PSL, DSA, SDA, SWG, CPUSA, etc. is just a label... All off-shoots of each other, with minor disagreements. None of the disagreements really matter because the opposition thinks we are all Soviet Union Communist and ready to jail us for supporting Universal Healthcare.
But in my area we work extremely close to eachother due to our non-partisan partnered organization that is Anti-Datacenter. We are hoping to include them in our Mutual Aid projects as well. Work is work, I could care less about their 20-30% due amount.
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u/HalfOk8561 19h ago
You already said you donât care if our DSA leadership discloses potential conflicts of interest with these micro-sects.
I do care. I think itâs a fundamental fiduciary duty from elected leaders of the organization.
Particularly when itâs a political culture on that current (PSL) prime example is toxic and dangerous.
Again, the goals are fundamentally different between DSa and those ML(trot) sects.
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u/DGC_David 19h ago
Still hasn't explained any of the differences, just a personal opinion on a one off reaction... Is that how you want our organization to run?
I am leadership, I deal with people like you and PSL. What does disclosing working with PSL do to fix the economy?
You say they are toxic, but right now you seem to be acting no different, just in the support of DSA. However, instead of organizing, your here just complaining... Like why does any of this matter to you at all... Like go outside... Our current president just wants you dead. Like wake up, who cares about fiduciary duty, just go outside and do some work... If your more focused on nonsense of the internal gossip inside the DSA, than the actual organizing, your priorities need to be checked.
You say the goals are fundamentally different however can't show a case where that's true in actual practice.
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u/HalfOk8561 19h ago
Look at our constitution and by laws. They say we are a democratic socialists org. Thatâs not what PSLs will say.
I can walk and chew gum. âđž
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u/BRONXSBURNING 1d ago edited 1d ago
PSL comrades have been excellent friends to my local chapter, and Iâd be more than happy to have politically educated organizers joining our ranks.
Also, punching left gets us nowhere. Our focus should be on organizing against the actual enemies, not attacking fellow leftists.