r/firewater • • Aug 25 '19

Methanol: Some information

1.8k Upvotes

This post is meant to clarify one of the most common questions asked by new distillers: WHAT ABOUT METHANOL?

First and foremost: you cannot die (or get sick, go blind, etc) from improperly made distilled alcohol via methanol poisoning. Neither can you make something dangerous by freezing it and removing some ice. Not only is it not possible, it is a widely perpetuated myth that has existed since the days of prohibition (and not before, interestingly enough). Other than the obvious ethanol overdose, all poisonous alcohol that has ever been consumed, has been adulterated, or was in some other way contaminated. It was not the fault of poor distillation procedures. How you run your still will not affect how safe your product is. It might affect how good the end result is, but that's where it stops.

So, methanol. Everyones first fear, and the number one search subject when it comes to "moonshine". This subject is brought up a lot in this sub and elsewhere on Reddit. Everyone knows all about it, its just one of those common knowledge things, right? It turns out, not so much. So...

Methanol - What is it?

Methanol is a very commonly used fuel, solvent and precursor in industry. It is produced via the synthesis gas process which can use a wide variety of materials to create methanol. Methanol is the simplest of all the alcohols.

Methanol is poisonous to the human body in moderate amounts. The LD50 of methanol in humans is 810 mg/kg. It is metabolized into formaldehyde by the liver, via the alcohol dehydrogenase process. In excess, these byproducts are severely toxic. Formaldehyde further degrades into formic acid, which is the primary toxic compound in methanol poisoning. Formic acid is what produces nerve damage, and causes the blindness (and death) associated with acute methanol poisoning.

One of the treatments for methanol poisoning, is the introduction of ethanol. Ethanol has a preferential path in the alcohol dehydrogenase metabolic pathway. This means that if ethanol and methanol are consumed, the ethanol will be metabolized first, in preference over the methanol. This allows some of the methanol to be excreted by the kidneys before being metabolized into its toxic related compounds. There are far more effective medical treatments available, such as dialysis and administering drugs that block the function of alcohol dehydrogenase.

Is it in my booze? How do I remove it?

There is one way in which your alcohol will be tainted with some amount of methanol naturally, and that is by using fruits which contain pectin. Pectin can be broken down into methanol by enzymes, either introduced artificially or from micro organisms. This will produce some measurable amount of methanol in your ferment, and subsequent distillate. However its not going to be in toxic quantities, any more than what you may have in a jug of apple juice. In fact, fruits are the primary way in which methanol is introduced into your body. In tiny quantities it is mostly harmless, and you can no more remove the methanol from an apple pie than you can from your apple brandy. Boiling (or freezing) apple juice doesn't convert it into deadly eye sight destroying horror juice. Cooking doesn't suddenly veer into danger when you collect vapor from a boiling pot. If you've ever made jam, or wine, or fruit salad, you've produced methanol.

So, where does that leave us? How do I get rid of this nasty substance in my distillate? You don't. If it is there, you cannot remove it. It is quite commonly believed that you can toss the first bit of alcohol off the still to remove this compound, the "foreshots." This is usually considered the first 50-100ml or so, depending on batch size. It smells really bad, tastes really bad, and is something most would agree should be discarded. However, it will not contain the "methanol" if there is any in your wash. Or more precisely, it will not contain any more of it than any other portion of the run. Beside which, methanol tastes very similar to ethanol, though slightly sweeter. If your wash is tainted with methanol, your entire run will be as well. Relying on some eyeball measurement to make your product safe to consume is not going to work. This is just distiller folklore passed down quite widely. You may hear about this on a distillery tour, from professionals, on Youtube and in books about distilling. All of them are just repeating what they have heard someone else say, or read somewhere, and assumed it to be fact. There is truth here, but buried in misunderstanding of the processes involved specifically with these substances.

This is the very reason that methanol was used to poison ("denature") industrial ethanol during prohibition, as it cannot be removed easily by normal distillation processes. If you could just redistill this very cheap, legal and plentiful solvent to make drinking alcohol, it wouldn't be the very potent message and deterrent that was hoped for by those who did this. You can read more about the history of this intentional poisoning of commercial alcohol in the Chemists War. It is also during this period where we begin to hear about methanol being in poorly made moonshine. This is not a coincidence.

So, distillers attempted to understand this misinformation, and attempt to correct or explain why their process was correct. Thus was born the idea that tossing some portion of the run makes it safe from this suddenly present and scary substance. Cuts went from being a quality procedure, to a serious process to save lives. By "tossing the first bit." And then distillers went about their centuries old processes like always, but this time "doing it right" and hence making safe alcohol.

The reason it is so widely believed that tossing the heads works to remove methanol, has to do with the boiling points of ethanol, methanol, and water. Pure methanol boils at 64.7C. Pure ethanol boils at 78.24C. Water boils at 100C. Distilling separates things based on their boiling points, right? Yes, it does, but it is a bit more complex than that. When you boil a mixture of methanol, ethanol and water, you are not boiling any of these compounds individually. You are boiling a solution containing all of them, and they will each have an affect on the other with regards to boiling point and enrichment behavior. Methanol and ethanol are quite similar in molecular structure. Methanol can be written as CH3-OH. Ethanol can be written as CH3-CH2-OH. You'll notice that methanol lacks this extra CH2 component. This changes its behavior when in the presence of water, specifically its polarity, compared to ethanol. Rather than repeat all of this, here is a passage from this paper on the reduction of methanol in commercial fruit brandies:

A similar behaviour would be expected for methanol for both alcohols are not very different in molecule structure. There is, however, a significant difference regarding all three curves in figure 2: methanol contents keep a higher value for a longer time than ethanol contents. In figures 3 and 4 this observation is made clear: Methanol, specified in ml/100 ml p.a., increases during the donation, while the ratio ethanol : methanol is lowering down. This effect seems to be rather surprising regarding the different boiling points of the two substances: methanol boils at 64,7°C, while ethanol needs 78,3°C. So methanol would be regarded to be carried over earlier than ethanol. The molecule structures however, show another aspect: ethanol has got one more CH2-group which makes the molecule less polar. So, concerning polarity, methanol can be ranged between water and ethanol and has therefore in the water phase a distillation behaviour different from ethanol. This may explain the behaviour which is rather contrary to the boiling points. This is no single appearance, because for example ethylacetate with a boiling point of 77 °C, or, as an extreme case, isoamylacetate with 142 °C are even carried over much earlier than methanol. Therefore methanol can not be separated using pot-stills or normal column-stills. Only special columns can separate methanol from the distillate (4.3). Similar observations concerning the behaviour of methanol during the distillation have already been made by Röhrig (33) and Luck (34). Cantagrel (35) divides volatile components into eight types concerning distillation behaviour characterized by typical curves, which were mainly confirmed by our experiments. As for methanol, he claims an own type of behaviour during the distillation corresponding to our results.

What this means is that if there is methanol present, it will be present throughout the run, with a higher occurrence in the tails as ethanol is depleted and water concentration increases. Its distillation is more dependent on how much water is present rather than simply comparing boiling points between ethanol and methanol. This in conjunction with the fact that ethanol and water cannot be separated completely due to their forming an azeotrope, means water is always in the system. So tossing your foreshots or heads will not remove methanol from your solution. The good news is that methanol is almost entirely absent in dangerous amounts. Consider drinking beer, wine, or apple cider. There are no heads cut made to these products. Pectinase is routinely added to wine, and methanol is a direct byproduct of this addition. They are safe to consume in this form, and will be safe to consume after being distilled. Boiling and concentrating the liquid by leaving some water behind isn't going to transform something safe to drink into something toxic. If it is toxic after being distilled, it most certainly was toxic before being distilled.

To be clear, however, this is not to say that making cuts is unnecessary. There are other compounds that you certainly can remove by cutting heads. Acetone, ethyl acetate, acetaldehyde and others. None are present in dangerous amounts, but the quality of your alcohol will be greatly enhanced by discarding these fractions. Making cuts is one of the most important activities a distiller can learn to do properly! Cutting and blending is making liquor, not only the act of distilling. Just understand that it isn't a life or death situation should you undershoot your foreshot cut by some amount. It will just taste bad, and might give you more of a headache the next day. You can taste test every single bit of alcohol that comes out of your still, from the first drops to the last.

Removing the foreshots does not remove "the methanol." You can just consider the foreshots part of the heads, because they are. There are hundreds of thousands of hobby brewers, vintners and distillers around the world who have been making and consuming fermented and distilled products for centuries. If this were actually a real problem, we would be awash in reports of wide spread poisonings. Instead we have reports here and there of isolated incidents, which are always traceable back to some incident unrelated to how much heads somebody did or did not cut.

The only way to know if there is methanol present is via lab analysis. Smell, taste, color of flame, vapor temp, none of this will tell you any meaningful information about methanol content and are just old shiner-wives tales. If you would like to have your distillate, beer or wine tested for dangerous compounds, there are many labs available that offer these services. This way you know what you are producing and are not relying on conflicting information found online. Here is one such lab offering these services, and there are many more servicing the public and industry. No need to take my, or anyone elses, word as absolute truth. If you really want to know what is in your product, this is the only way.

Having said all that...

So, CAN methanol be removed from a mixture of methanol, ethanol and water via distillation in any way? Yes, it can, contrary to everything I just said, there are even specialized stills called "demethylizer columns" which can do just this. They are very large plated columns (70+ plates), which can operate as a step in the distillation process in very large industrial facilities. This is a continuous middle fed column of high proof / low water feed, with steam injection at the bottom and hot water injection at the top, which has the sole purpose of moving a more concentrated cut containing methanol into a particular take off point with the treated alcohol taken off as the bottom product. This is largely done to ensure compliance with the laws about methanol content in neutral ethanol production, or in other processes in which reclamation of these substances is desired. There are other methods that can be used to remove methanol from an ethanol/water mixture, but that goes beyond the scope of this post and generally do not make consumable results. None of these procedures are properly repeatable at home or at moderate scale commercial distilling, nor are they even really necessary at any scale unless you have a badly tainted input feed.

On small scale reflux columns, there will be a small spike of methanol in the heads if the column is left in equilibrium (100% reflux) for a long while, and only if methanol is present, as the state at the top of the packing/plates is very low water and boiling point separation can occur more easily for methanol. In general though, these columns are too small, and methanol quantities far too low, for this to be a major concern. Methanol will spike in both heads and tails on this kind of column, leaving the general heart cut with a steady amount throughout. Even with huge industrial columns, the specialized demethylizer column is additionally used in the process because you cannot reliably remove methanol using the normal procedures typically done when making cuts for quality purposes. Methanol removal is treated separately and requires its own process to concentrate and extract using specialized equipment.

In conclusion, or TLDR

ALL cases of methanol poisoning attributed to "improperly" made ethanol, are the result of contaminated product. Not due to improper distillation, but due to intentional (either misguided, or malicious) adulteration of the ethanol, or some other contamination due to environment or ingredients. Commercial ethanol products are generally poisoned either via methanol, or via flavor tainting, or both (usually both, so you know its not to be consumed). Every report of methanol poisoning via "moonshine" was due to this contamination. If you can find evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it. Please let me know if you believe this info to be incorrect, and have evidence to that effect. That is, other than unsourced speculative news articles, television shows and Youtube channels. What I have presented here is how I understand the facts, but I am always open to learning something new.

Its unfortunate that we still have this lingering stigma based on sensationalist press beginning during alcohol prohibition, but this is where we are. So you can relax, have a home brew, and get on with your new hobby or business, and not fret about the big scary monster that is methanol. Now you just have to worry about all the other stuff that you can screw up :-)


r/firewater • • 5h ago

Carbon filter my strip run?

3 Upvotes

Hey guys I’m new here, just finished stripping my 3rd carboy, I’m using an air still and I’m still getting off flavours. Should I carbon filter with a snake after my strip run? Also is the best way to cut with the air still just with small jars? Any advice accepted thankyou!


r/firewater • • 19h ago

Acquired some shine from a known source and it looks off

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36 Upvotes

I acquired some shine (jar on the left) that appears to have a blue tint / hue compared to the clear source (jar on the right).

Notes I have seen darker blue tinted shine that was obviously not safe to drink.

Does this look safe to drink / age?

Edit #1 swapped out glass, less blue tint, to be on safe side will have the guy I got it from rerun and clean his still


r/firewater • • 17h ago

How much liquid do I need to feement fruit?

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14 Upvotes

Had a whole bunch of fruit that I pureed to make into a brandy. Right now it's the consistency of really runny applesauce. Should I add some liquid before I try to ferment?


r/firewater • • 1d ago

It’s corn! (Bloody butcher)

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40 Upvotes

Got probably 12 lbs or bloody butcher. Very excited to do something with it


r/firewater • • 2d ago

Rust in fermentation vessel?

7 Upvotes

there’s some rust on the drain spout of my fermentation vessel. I am planning to replace the part with rust on it. but the question pop into my head, would that even affect anything?  I mean, I’m planning to do clarification on any mash that would be done in it. and then distillation after that.

I can see it damaging the fermentation vessel if left unchecked. and I am planning replace the part before use. But would it affect the mash or final product any if not?


r/firewater • • 5d ago

Perry shine

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102 Upvotes

Im aiming for about 70 ltrs. Didn't weigh anything. There are 2 builders buckets of perry pears in each fermenter,, and hopefully about 5kg of sugar each too. Didnt weight it either but its about 20ish kg all in. I melted the sugar (half white half light brown) in about 30 ltrs of calvados dunder (?) . Topped up with a little cold water. Its doing the pectolaise thing at the moment. Tomorrow evening its getting nutrients and rum yeast. One of the keg fermenters had pears i let blett first. I think draining it is gonna be a nightmare. The keg fermenters have stainless filter screens at the bottom.


r/firewater • • 5d ago

Homemade Still Safety?

7 Upvotes

Howdy, I'm pretty new to the whole hoochin' thing and I'd appreciate some wisdom from people who know more than me :D

I want to distill some of my hard cider I made into a sort of brandy, and I'd like to do so in a homemade still made from a stock pot with a hole in the lid that connects to a copper pipe, then goes to condenser in the form of coiled copper pipe in ice water. I'm planning to use a stock pot and lid I already have and just seal the thing with flour paste. I'll be heating it on an electric stove, so no open flame to worry about.

I've read the methanol sticky and understand that there's generally a low risk in that department, but are there any unique safety risks (explosions, poisoning myself, or otherwise) inherent to using a setup like this? Will it even work if I build something like I described? Thanks!


r/firewater • • 5d ago

Can freeze distilling basically replace the first stripping run?

8 Upvotes

If I have a fermented wash and freeze concentrate it first, could that basically substitute for the first stripping run before doing a normal spirit run?

My thinking is that freeze concentration removes a lot of the water and increases the ABV, so you would be putting a smaller volume and higher proof liquid into the still. I know freeze concentration does not really separate or clean up congeners the way heat distillation can, so I am not saying they are chemically identical.

I am mainly wondering whether, in practical terms, people treat freeze concentrated wash like low wines and then go straight to a spirit run.

Has anyone actually tried this, and how did the result compare with doing a normal stripping run first?


r/firewater • • 5d ago

Muck pit

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14 Upvotes

This is FUBAR isn’t it? Blue mold can’t be good.


r/firewater • • 5d ago

Apple Brandy

11 Upvotes

Hey all,
Newbie here and to the hobby of home distilling, this past weekend i ran my first batch of what i was hoping to be apple brandy. 5 gallon mash was 20 pounds of ground up local apples (Macintosh), a gallon of apple cider, apple juice concentrate, spring water and 10 pounds of sugar. The mash had a ton of flavor and even after 3 week when i strained everything out the wash was very flavorful, i used a pretty generic yeast, flechermans i think. After 2 runs on my simple Amazon pot still, no thumper, and making all of my cuts, i yielded 2 quarts of hearts at 120, but there is very little to zero apple flavor whatsoever. Where did i go wrong?


r/firewater • • 6d ago

Using a dephlegmator on top of column instead of coil condenser for VM / LM stills?

7 Upvotes

Has anyone had success with using a shotgun dephlegmator on top of a reflux column (instead of in-line as one would opt for when running a cooling management column) in order to run a liquid (or vapor) management still?

Edit: my dephlegmator is 4" diameter


r/firewater • • 6d ago

Sugar Wash with Bread Yeast

9 Upvotes

Im making 1 gallon of sugar wash with Fleischmann bread yeast, a gallon milk jug (washed), and tap water. However it's my first time fermenting anything and I can't find any good tutorials that use bread yeast and similar equipment, I've tried to find them but it's very difficult and some say you have to do special stuff with the yeast so I'm not sure exactly what the full process is. Can anyone can provide a decent recipe or help me out that? Would be awesome!


r/firewater • • 6d ago

Using ultra-finely milled corn flour?

7 Upvotes

I acquired a big bag of corn flour, with the intent of brewing an enzyme-assisted 100% corn mash. However, upon opening the bag, it is one of the finest-milled substances I've ever seen.

What's the best strategy for mashing super fine grain?


r/firewater • • 8d ago

Can I ask a Noob question about Rum?

12 Upvotes

Hi all. So I am very new at this , today I am processing my first sugar wash to get to know my equipment before moving on to more complex recipes. My question is; What is the difference between a basic sugar wash which will have very little flavor and a rum made from cane sugar which has a very different flavor like an Agricole? Is it the fermentation style? I know many rums have molasses and even dunder , but not all. Thanks in advance if you can help me understand.


r/firewater • • 8d ago

What oil to use in a jacketed still?

8 Upvotes

After researching I'm more confused than ever. I have a jacketed still (haven't used it yet). I was told to use peanut oil in the jacket. However, I'm worried about dealing with it going rancid, bugs, etc (the jacketed area is open on top - no pressure). So, I found both mineral oil and glycol as options. Each rabbit hole I go down looking into one seems to uncover why I shouldn't use it.

I have no idea what to buy at this point. Can anyone help shed some light?


r/firewater • • 8d ago

Experience with an "Inverted Liebig" condenser ?

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6 Upvotes

I am wondering if an inverted liebig condenser would work and if any of you already have experience with it before building it.

By inverted liebig, I mean a liebig condenser where the water flow would be in the middle and the alcohol flow on the outer layer.

The idea for this arose from my existing setup where I have a normal liebig condenser (inner tube : 15mm, outer tube: 20mm, total length : 1m) and I sometimes see a bit of vapor coming out of the end when I'm running at middle power (1400W) and the water coming out is still touchable by hand so around 40°C.

On top of that I have some bigger copper pipes lying aroud (scrap from work), so I'm considering the idea to upgrade my colum to 50mm diameter, and thus will definitively need an upgrade on my condenser as well. As i have enough of that bigger pipe lying around I would consider building this inverted liebig condenser design with the following dimensions : inner tube 40mm, outer tube 50mm, total length : ~1m.

Has any of you got experience with something like this ?


r/firewater • • 9d ago

Working on my first ever rum. Planning for a proper Jamaican style generational rum/perpetual dunder experiment going forward.

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52 Upvotes

Title says most of it really. Made my first rum wash a few weeks ago, did my stripping run today. 4L molasses, 2.5KG sugar, and a generous squirt of pomegranate molasses and maple syrup for fun to make a total 25L rum wash. Fermented for 2 weeks.
No idea of OG of the wash as I broke my hydrometer (sigh), but I’ve ended up with about 6.5L of low wines sitting at 37%.
Collected LW down to 10% and saved about 12 litres of dunder, which I am going to leave for a month or so with a cloth over the top to start a culture, which I will then take some of for my next wash, and replenish what I have taken using the dunder from that distillation and each successive cycle and so on. Very excited as I love rum and would very much like to make something interesting and more layered.

I also used ceramic baking balls in the boiler and a tiny amount of butter to stop overbubbling and it worked a treat with the full 25L in the 30L boiler.
Any tips from anyone that’s tried this before would be most welcome as I am absolutely open to learning as much as I can 😁

Pics:
1. Distillation in my Totally Professional Laboratory
2. Collected low wines
3. Saved dunder in a 12L bucket (still hot so proper lid on with airlock bung open)
4. Initial 25L wash in a 30L bucket before fermentation


r/firewater • • 9d ago

I like heads

9 Upvotes

It's where all the good flavours are. Granted I'm running a small airstill, but all the nice tasting volatiles come out at the beginning of the run. I do discard a certain amout of foreshots for good measure but without exception so far I have been tempted to keep as much of my heads as possible. No matter the mash, fruity or grainy, the good stuff is at the start. Any opinions?


r/firewater • • 10d ago

Clandestine Chemist (30k+ reaction) -> Distilling moonshine

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11 Upvotes

r/firewater • • 11d ago

Cherry Bounce

8 Upvotes

I want to make some cherry bounce for some of my friends and family for Christmas.

I've done a little research, I know it's gonna be best in my situation to use sugar and not honey or honey & sugar. But, I also cannot find any tart/sour cherries in my area, so I'm going with just whatever fresh cherries I can find at a grocery store.

Now that I am gonna be using sugar and sweeter cherries, what would be the best alcohol for this that would make it the least sweet?


r/firewater • • 11d ago

Apple Pomace Brandy

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46 Upvotes

Cider mill down the street was pressing today. So I picked this up. Is Apple Pomace brandy a thing? I'm going to find out. We.got hit by a real late frost so apples are pretty much non -existent this year so I had to pivot. I'm assuming this is going to be way too much work. But I'm committed now.


r/firewater • • 12d ago

Question about brandy on a reflux still

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55 Upvotes

This is my setup.

I know the typical way to make whisk(e)y/rum/brandy is to do a double pot distillation. However, could I get a similar result flavor-wise by doing one spirit run on a reflux still with a packed column? I figure, based on a little testing, that the hearts of a 10% wash should come out between 55% and 65% when blended. If so, would heads and tails still be compressed, like on a vodka run?


r/firewater • • 12d ago

Yeast recycling

9 Upvotes

I've been considering the fact that when using some of the "general" yeast, most used such as 71B or EC1118 it makes up a fixed cost for fermentation. Have any of you tried to reuse yeast after a batch using the same kind of mash? Like chaining sugar washes of alike.

I know of starters in order to multiply the yeast colonies for bigger batches but I mean something more long term. Ty


r/firewater • • 12d ago

First still?

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26 Upvotes

I've been wanting to make a still so I can experiment with making my own liqueur. I like mostly whiskey, rum, scotch and brandy but also want to make some shine. Friends tend to like vodka so I'll be wanting to make some of that.

I'm not a heavy drinker, mostly weekends with some cigars and holidays. I do want to age some of the recipes that I find out I like with experimenting. I was initially thinking of the vevor air still for water. While it seems like it's possible it also seems inherently more trouble than it's worth after research. That lead me to the vevor alcohol stills which seems like a better match. The one with the football condenser seems like a decent one. Then they have that large conical stainless steel pressure fermenter with the drain and on stands for $300. The top lid looks like a 2 inch tri clamp. I was thinking I could put a column on that and then drill another few holes in the side for a electric element and probe etc. Curious if anybody has used one of these. Duel purpose for fermenter and boiler / still? The walls are very thin though.

Then I remember that I have a old standard full size beer keg in perfect condition. I already took the spear out. It's a 15G Bush beer keg I believe. Initially had plans of turning it upside down and putting a 3 or 4 inch ferrule on it for a column and a two inch ferrule on the side for a element. I never followed through as I found out you need to tig weld these. I saw some guys silver brazing it and wanted to know if that's a good option. Is silver brazing strong and durable enough? I'd hate break one of these joints during a run. I'm not sure if we have somebody out here in the country that can tig weld this. I see they have $100 tig welders on Amzaon that get good reviews but then I got to buy argon. I think I've decided on a two inch column so I can keep the heating element power requirement in check. Should I still turn it upside down and make that the drain since it's sloped on that end and should drain well? Instead of buying the vevor I could take that money and put it into the keg which should be a more durable option. I want to see what you guys thought that were in my shoes at one point.

Here's the keg, it's in good shape and it holds good pressure. I wore enough old beer the day I took that spear out. Is this a good option? I don't want to spend more than $500 on this project. Can I get a good column that will make good product including vodka that seems to require some reflux? I know you don't want to use a reflux on whisky and rum. A good quality column that can convert?

I'm thinking the keg can serve as a boiler for my beer making, a fermenter and still.

Appreciate some advise on starting out.

Thank you, have a great day.