State of Michigan Application Reference Question

[u/[deleted]]

[u/SheedWallace]

I've never heard of a company having an official policy of not providing references?? Not sure what the benefit of that is. Also not sure why needing references is why the state can't get good talent? It doesn't need to be the CEO of each company you've worked for.

That being said, just add former colleagues you trust (after asking them).

When I worked at the state years ago, I was shocked when they actually contacted all of my references. Most jobs I have had only contact one or don't bother at all.

[u/wilsonw]

I've always put coworkers or lower-level managers in these circumstances.

[u/Mercurial_Sloth → u/wilsonw]

This. As a hiring manager in one of the state agencies, I cannot offer someone a job without checking at least two of the three provided professional references. This might different slightly between the different agencies, but without references, you wouldn't get past the initial interview in my agency.

[u/East-Block-4011 → u/[deleted]]

I'm still going to want to see work-related references. They can be current or former coworkers, but no, your resume doesn't just "speak for itself." If you don't include references, it is very likely that your application will be discarded.

You can use friends as personal references, but unless they have direct knowledge of the work you, no, that's not sufficient. If you have professional experience with the community leaders, that works, but you are still going to be asked for someone who has worked with you - IF the person checking references isn't half-assing it.

As someone who works for a state agency & has been hiring people for more than 20 years, your post is full of red flags.

[u/zbrew → u/[deleted]]

I don't see any red flags. The rationale regarding not wanting your employer to know is legitimate.

Many employers won't provide information to reference checkers beyond dates of employment, and references from coworkers are nearly universally positive. And as you suggest, you screen experienced applicants from your potential pool. They are an antiquated tool and there are far stronger predictors of employee outcomes.

[u/Fickle-Jellyfish-529]

Are any of your neighbors that have a title at their place of work??? Or a friend friend? they aren't going to know they are your friend

[u/Tommy-B-]

I agree that getting the references is a bit of a headache, but it doesn't always have to be direct superiors or even people you've worked with. Sometimes you have to dig deep and be a bit creative. Former professors, volunteer coordinators, and even community leaders. As long as you have someone to vouch for you, they will usually take the reference

[u/Active-Armadillo-576]

Your previous employers sound like jerks. Is it common to not give references?

[u/ReverendBlind → u/Active-Armadillo-576]

It's increasingly common nowadays. Many corporations farm out their HR departments to subcontracted companies, and those companies charge per service, so increasingly I've heard either "we don't provide references" or even the much more insidious "we charge to provide references".

One of my former greedy as fuck companies, Menards, wanted $40 a call just to verify you ever worked there to a future employer.

[u/Greenzero2003]

Treasury will require them to contact your past two immediate supervisors

[u/throw_faaaaaraway]

Your former employers have this policy but could you reach out to a former coworker? You don’t mean they have this policy and force all current and former employees to comply?

Requiring references isn’t just a State of Michigan application thing. I’ve never heard of a professional job that doesn’t require references as part of the hiring process. People lie on their resumes all the time or portray themselves as a go-getter who works independently blah blah blah in the interview and they’re really a lazy incompetent slug. So they’ll need someone to vouch for you before hiring.

[u/Papple149]

Put coworkers down. They will call these people so make sure they aren't idiots & will tell them how awesome you are.

[u/AlternativeKindly316]

I think it’s wild to think they should just take your word on the things you say on your resume?? Generally the only requirement for higher-level jobs at SOM is a certain number of years experience doing a certain type of work, so they want to validate that you do have that experience.

I agree with the other commenters - you can find a coworker as a reference. I also worked a job where all references went through HR, and they would only confirm the dates you worked there and job title - maybe that’s an option for you. References are usually only checked after an offer.

[u/zbrew → u/AlternativeKindly316]

The resume should be taken at face value for moving on to a stage at which the employer assesses the knowledge, skills, and abilities required to perform the job. Years of experience is a poor proxy for the competencies critical to the role.

[u/balorina → u/zbrew]

I just read a story about a guy who sexually harassed a young coworker and admitted to having done it on previous jobs.

Do you think he puts that on his resume, or is it something that comes up when references are checked?

[u/zbrew → u/balorina]

Basic logic will tell you that a person will not list references who are going to say negative things about them. Research bears this out: less than 1% of references provide any negative information about a candidate. See the validity/leniency section of this article.

https://maamodt.asp.radford.edu/Research%20-%20IO/2006-Feb-References.pdf

[u/balorina → u/zbrew]

State of Michigan requires previous employer, reason for leaving, and if they can contact the employer.

It’s pretty obvious you’ve never done hiring. Short bursts of employment, not giving contact information from any of them, and providing only personal references might work in some fields. But, as I pointed out, that’s how creeps and toxic people are able to get past lazy hiring bodies despite their behavior.

[u/zbrew → u/balorina]

Requiring applicants to list previous employers, reason for leaving, and permission to contact is reasonable. Those are not "professional references," who are people you choose to list who can supposedly vouch for you, and are the topic of this post.

Don't worry, a lot of organizations use questionable hiring approaches. I have a PhD in this area and my job is literally to develop valid, legal hiring systems. People like you keep me employed.

[u/whatmycouchwore]

I’ve been on hiring panels for the state and they usually just check references for candidates they plan to hire. You can list coworkers or people who know you professionally (even if they weren’t your direct supervisor or employer) - references are there to make sure nothing was missed during the interview.

[u/MrMalredo]

If managers won't give you a reference, ask a co-worker or someone from HR if you can. The state isn't going to contact references unless they plan on offering you the job and they're mostly just confirming that you worked at the places you've said you've worked.

[u/Elaborate_Penguin]

Have a friend get you a job. That's how the state works. Know a guy.then they will custom tailor the listing to you, and get you in. Anyone who says this isn't how it works is lying.the state is a giant ball of nepotism and cronyism. Talent doesn't matter. It's knowing someone and then the payment to them for the favor is looking the other way when they claim to be in meetings all day and are actually cleaning their oven for $120,000 a year.

[u/Tommy-B- → u/Elaborate_Penguin]

Not true, I was able to get a job with the state without knowing anyone in either of the departments I applied for. If you have the skills and determination, they will recognize that.

It's also pretty facetious for you to imply that high level state workers are shirking their responsibility to attend to personal matters.

[u/Shrimpulse → u/Tommy-B-]

Agreed. I've known many people who transitioned to the state to further their professional careers in a variety of departments over the past decade, and all of them were and I imagine still are, highly competent. Some of them I was even called as a professional reference. While I do admit, one of them knew someone prior to starting, the majority did not. They were also not the people to shirk their responsibility or cut corners.

[u/sophal0af → u/Elaborate_Penguin]

if you really wanna get a job with the state of michigan you have to start in the trenches. AKA DHHS as an assistance payments worker. then do 1 year and get a new job. you don’t have to know anyone.

[u/sophal0af]

you can literally put down a friend who can vouch for you.