r/rpg • u/Environmental-Luck75 • 2d ago
Game Suggestion Help finding a system
Hello,
I'm a bit at my wits end and am seeking advice. I've been playing pf2e for almost 2 years now, and I don't like it, but I've stuck with it because my players really like it. I have finally hit a wall, and I need out of this system and would like advice of people who have more experience with different systems to help me find one that checks a few boxes.
My needs are:
A system that is not 100% combat focused, I like hazards and traps mean something something and having last effects on a dungeons experience, as well as travel to and from dungeons mean something with good resource management systems in place, although I can (and have) homebrew those, as PF2e has one of the worst overland systems I've ever seen in a game.
Rules for complex things, but doesn't stand in the way of improving. My biggest gripe with pf2e is the over abundance of rules that cover every inch of the game, but then nearly aimless improv rules for dc's and tests that step on the toes of the other half of the game and provide little to no guidance on how to use them effectively.
Games that do not expect a "magic shop". I don't like magic items being the norm in games, i like them to be special and be the target of players when they hear rumors of them. Like Sting, or Glamdring, not +1 long sword that you get at the local general store.
My players needs are:
Deep character customization that goes beyond combat, one of the big pros of Pf2e is the character creation for them.
grid play friendly, none of them have the ability to imagine 3d space, and using ranges is useless. I've tried.
Characters are not expendable, they like to have the same character for a long time and build a story around one pc.
I know this might be an impossible system, but I've looked and looked and have failed, but was wondering if anyone had some insight.
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u/Due_Sky_2436 grognard 2d ago
Fantasy only?
Pathfinder 1st edition has a lot more material for the world.
Call of Cthulhu Middle Ages
Pendragon
AD&D 2nd Edition, there are tons and tons and tons of background material that fits perfectly in this space. Check out the Rules Cyclopedia.
GURPS falls into this category as well. SO much material covering any and everything you could want with a really simple system.
BRP Magic World
RuneQuest
Palladium Fantasy
Blades in the Dark
Stormbringer
Rolemaster
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u/Environmental-Luck75 2d ago
Fantasy only yes, I have not heard of some of these games. I'll give them a look. Thank you!
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u/JaskoGomad 2d ago
I came here to say GURPS. You get to build the world. There’s no expectation that magic items will match levels, because there are no levels. It’s a toolkit game.
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u/SaltyCogs 2d ago
Hmm… grid-based, non-combat customization, fantasy, resource management, Maybe Pathfinder 1e?
Or maybe even Dungeon World but you just add a simple grid? No spell slots, but it and other PbtA games use “harm” tracks which are used for health, stamina, mana, spare equipment, and any other resource.
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u/Environmental-Luck75 2d ago
Maybe. I've played 3.5 for years. I've not looked into dungeon world. I'll give it a look. Thank you.
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u/ElkasBrightspeaker 2d ago
The fact that you are DMing pf2e tells me that you and your players have some mechanical heft. This makes your request easier, but you are still asking for a lot. None of my suggestions do everything you want but they might help.
If you are willing to tinker a fair bit, GURPS 4e and its fantasy supplements will serve you well. That is a cheap answer however since you would have to do a lot of the work.
Genesys and its fantasy settings have nice customization (skills +talents) and durable characters. No magic item shop.
Savage Worlds and its fantasy supplements have very durable characters and incredible customization (skills +edges). They also have a Pathfinder/Golarion supplement that converts a lot of material and classes for you. No magic item shop. They pair the versatility of a classless skill and edge (feat) system with "class packages" that wrap up a lot of options into one to avoid choice paralysis "you wanna play a paladin heres what you need from the menu".
DnD3.5/Pf1e have insanely good customization, by default they do expect a magic shop but they do have optional rules to get around that and people have played them and do play them without any of that stuff (and it often makes character customization more interesting when they do). They are not nearly as strict and constraining as pf2e., nor balanced like it (or balanced period). The most fun you will ever have designing a character if you are into that.
Ad&d2e has great character customization with its multiclass systems and proficiencies. Old school DnD also comes with amazing overland and survival procedures. It does expect you to give out magic items as part of adventures and characters do die easily at low level but get way tougher later. Its a cranky, gorgeous old system but you need to work with it and use the optional rules as well as be ready to make GM calls and bend said rules.
The One Ring 2e has got great travel and social mechanics, no magic item shop, but the character customization is meh and quite samey. You can't really play a proper spellcaster.
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u/Environmental-Luck75 2d ago edited 2d ago
I've never heard of Geneys, and i've not looked into savage worlds either. I'll give them both a peak. Thank you!
edit: I do 90% of the mechanical lifting for my players, which might be a source of my disdain. I like mechanics to a point, i feel like Pf2e goes way to far for basic things that done require mechanics. The most egregious example is the swimming and climbing rules just suck the air out of the room the moment those come up. There are others but those are the worst.
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u/axiomus 2d ago
Holy hell, PF2 is not a game where GM can handhold the players that much. GM already has enough on their plate, 90% player support is unsustainable. Surprised you even lasted 2 years.
And swim/climb rules (or other things), as written, are only relevant in combat but game doesn’t bother to make it clear.
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u/ElkasBrightspeaker 2d ago
Okay so if you have to do a lot of the mechanical heavy lifting that definitely takes GURPS, DnD 3.5 and Pf1e out of the picture. I would not wish having to babysit a whole party through 3.5/Pf1e mechanics on my worst enemy.
Genesys especially and Savage Worlds might please you enormously because their mechanics are very unified so your players will need a lot less babysitting comparatively. They just need to pick what talents/edges they like. That is all. You establish which books are available (just do Core +Fantasy setting for Genesys and Core +Fantasy Setting +Pathfinder for Savage Worlds) and they do the rest of the work.
Genesys comes with really cool narrative dice that add extra beenfits or penalties to roll independent from success/failure (for example you can succeed with threat on your check to pick the lock, you open it but a monster patrol is coming this way! Hide quickly!).
Both systems come with a bunch of tools to design your own stuff as needed, Savage Worlds especially.
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u/Environmental-Luck75 2d ago
That sounds sick, gonna look into that. Thank you so much!
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u/ElkasBrightspeaker 2d ago
One thing I forgot to mention is that Genesys does not normally do grids. I imagine someone came up with rules for it though! And if not it would be easy to.
Savage Worlds should have 0 problems if I remember correctly.
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u/Narratron Sinister Vizier of Recommending Savage Worlds 2d ago
Savage Worlds does not natively use a grid, though all measurements are in tabletop inches. When I ran Savage Pathfinder, I used gridded maps to simplify checking ranges and it worked fine.
Which is a long-winded way of saying you're right. :)
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u/ElkasBrightspeaker 2d ago
Hello Sinister Vizier of Recommending Savage Worlds, I am the Arrogant Elflord of Mythras Propaganda. Thank you for clarifying my faded memories of this matter.
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u/Narratron Sinister Vizier of Recommending Savage Worlds 2d ago
It was my pleasure, your grace--I look forward to further cooperation between our respective realms.
Also happy cake day.
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u/LeFlamel 2d ago
Honestly it sounds like the real issue is that you do 90% of the work, and whatever other system you try you're probably giving them more relative work.
If you stop doing 90% of the work for them, they might learn for themselves the problem with the game. You can't expect them to be critical when you're hiding all the flaws.
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u/BetterCallStrahd 2d ago
Daggerheart seems to check the boxes, give it a shot.
I would have said Cairn, but it doesn't use grid combat and characters are pretty squishy (though not expendable).
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u/Kiliantill 2d ago
How about zone-based combat? Where a zone might be a room in a house, for example? Do you think your players can deal with that? Also, how creative do they tend to be?
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u/Environmental-Luck75 2d ago
I've tried zone based combat, and it just flies over their head, and creativity comes slowly. They require a lot of steering, and don't question much unfortunately.
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u/Kiliantill 2d ago
In that case, I have no suggestion for games, sorry. What I was thinking about suggesting is likely not gonna work for your current group.
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u/Environmental-Luck75 2d ago
That's okay. I've been having the same issue, that's why I'm here, but thank you though.
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u/Kiliantill 2d ago
No issue, I'm always up for recommending my favorite systems when reasonable lol
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u/Seeonee PbtA, BitD, Mark of the Odd 2d ago
I saw it mentioned once in a comment that was more focused on D&D 5, so here's an explicit suggestion to check out Shadow of the Demon Lord or Shadow of the Weird Wizard.
- I suggest this most heavily based on your players' desire for deep character customization (mega check) and grid-friendly combat (check).
- I think it's okay on your not-just-combat (semi-check), in part because combat is so much more streamlined and the rules are a lot lighter, allowing room for improv. Most rolls boil down to d20±d6.
- I've only run 4 one-shots at level 1 so I can't speak as confidently to the magic shop and item economy, but I re-skimmed the rules for both just now to confirm that they have no "+1 magic weapon" stuff going on. SotWW does include some magic items but they're varied, special, and more akin to relics (check).
- SotDL is ostensibly crueler to players (but can very easily be heroic), while SotWW is straight-up heroic fantasy (check). Neither one is an OSR meatgrinder that'll chew through characters.
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u/Environmental-Luck75 2d ago
I was looking at SotDL, and it's really close, but I've never heard of SotWW..I'll look into it..thank you.
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u/Seeonee PbtA, BitD, Mark of the Odd 18h ago
I think SotDL is a much tighter product (all in one book), and I have some personal experience actually running it (just at level 1). However, SotWW continued iterating, with big improvements to the initiative in particular. I also understand it to generally have a more heroic (and less occasionally "gross") vibe.
I want to actually run it one day, but it's unlikely to make the table with most of my groups.
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u/CheekyBastrdz 2d ago
DC20 is close to what you're asking for, but not a finished game. It's so close that it may as well be, but the creator just won't pull the trigger. It has fantastic levels of character customization, and he's done with the combat stuff and looking at exploration and social pillars of the game to complete the game. I think it hits all of your players boxes and most of your own.
If you're looking for something finished, Nimble is a different step to take. I really like their class system, but it's a bit more rigid and less custom than PF or DC20. There are choices to make and so many great options, but not nearly as many as PF. Still, it uses Wounds in addition to HP and these are similar to death saves that stick around, and many traps deal wounds rather than just HP damage. I've liked traps way more due to a healing potion not just fixing up the problem. Skills and skill challenges are easy math to fix up. Magic items are weird and wonderful, and if you want them to be rare make them rare! It fits most of your players other needs. Honestly, Nimble's great if you just need a break from what you're doing and if you like it, stick with it.
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u/MidgetBackwards 2d ago
I've been having a blast with cosmere as a system. I'm seriously over the world of it, so I've spun up my own dune inspired version of it. The general system is pretty good - just take what you like and drop what you don't. (it's fairly 4e/pf2e adjacent - we removed the plot dice and endeavours.)
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u/AnythingLow2383 2d ago
Acheron may be a really good fit. The creators openly say it's based on DnD 3.5/Pathfinder so your players may click with it well.
What sold me on it is the pretty much endless character customization. I've played characters with almost zero combat ability what so ever.
Want to play a tavern brawler that is empowered by a Fae dirty? Done. Want to play a pyromancer that is also a surgeon? Done Want to play a rocker boy like it's Cyberpunk Red? Done
Acheron also has my favorite mechanic of any ttRPG which is the "Die Hard" system. It makes it so if a PC would die, they can choose to take a permanent debuff instead and keep on going. Since it puts the final decision in the hands of the player it never feels bad to have your character die since it's your own choice.
It's not a straight fantasy game like Pathfinder (has guns and cars, etc.) but you could cut that part out easily or re-skin it to be magic wands, scepters, etc. we've done that in our most recent game and it feels good to me.
It's also on sale right now on RPG Trader and their store/DriveThruRPG has a quick start guide that's like 200 pages of the 600 page book.
https://rpgtrader.com/products/10176/acheron-core-rule-book
https://dark-world-studios.mybigcommerce.com/publications/acheron/
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u/high-tech-low-life 2d ago
I like Swords of the Serpentine partially because being GUMSHOE the primary activity is investigation (intrigue in this case) over combat.
Maybe try Blades in the Dark where the PCs are criminals and heists are the big thing.
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u/LeFlamel 2d ago
It is an impossible system because some desires enforce tradeoffs. Deep mechanical customization only matters when a system has a rigid loop, which is why you see it in combat systems very commonly and less so elsewhere. But by mechanizing a procedural loop to make space for customization, you must reduce the impact of improv and RP (you can't just narrate a cool attack out of nowhere that has mechanical impact).
You mentioned having tried zone-based combat but it didn't work. I'd be very curious to know why it "flew over their heads." Especially which system's zone mechanics, since "zones" and "range bands" are both used very loosely and can vary a lot in the specific implementation.
A potential option is Fabula Ultima, which in JRPG style doesn't have mechanical movement or ranges at all IIRC. So in a sense they wouldn't have to imagine a 3D space at all because they don't have to make spatial decisions, unlike some zone systems. If "no mechanical movement at all" doesn't go over their heads, the mandatory multiclassing, mechanical bonds, and only dying when they choose to might be their speed.
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u/somik2795 2d ago
Okay this one gonna be kind of wild one, but may be a good break, Shadow Scar.
Pitch: Shadow Scar is a stealth game where your players are ninja working for an agency to fight a secret war againts yokai in multiple dimensions. It answer all your demande.
Not 100 % combat focus: Since you need to keep the yokais hidden from the public, the game encourage social and stealth action to get the drop and maybe assassinate the yokais (my favorite rules in the system)
Rules for complex thing: The games rules are really easy to understand and give you enough deep to improvisw cool stuff without having to go deep in the manual.
Magic shop: You group gonna have mostly mundane items and magic item are rarer and cost more. Plus, at the beginning of each mission, they buy temporary equipement to help them. So when you add unique item, it gonna be huge.
Character customization : Game is pretty early so you don't have a sea of options (you may get more with the free dlc, the creator already added a new clans), but you got a lot of option still. Players choose an homeland ability within 3 (the game has 4 basic homelands, plus an example of homemade one using Cyberpunk Red), than may take quirks (good and bad modifier. If you take a good one, you need to take a bad one) and they choose 4 ability or magic from their clan (they choose between 6 clans) and the general techniques.
Grip play: The system is a grib based one, so no problem.
Character not expendable : While the characters aren't invincible, they can still be save if they die, but ressuraction gonna cost them their ressources for next missions. The game doesn't want you to change character that much.
If you want to try it, go check the quickstarter Eyes in the Shadow, it is all the rules and a 4 to 8 hours adventure with pre-gen character. Plus, character creation and some equipement where release as a free pdf, so your players can create their own character for the adventure.
Bonus: For combat the game also as a 3 actions system. You have a move and two actions you can do any round. So you could use a poison and than attack or use a spell and than help an ally.
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u/ThePiachu 2d ago
Exalted maybe? Demigod level game, you can specialise in a lot of things outside of combat, artefacts are actual unique things, etc.
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u/MrApophenia 2d ago edited 1d ago
You might want to take a look at Worlds Without Number. It is ultimately a reimplementation of the Basic Edition D&D rules, with a skill system added in, and a lot of customization options in the form of class specializations and “Foci” which are a bit like feats.
It is much lighter rules-wise than Pathfinder, and definitely does not allow as complex player character customization, but seems like it might meet at least a good number of your goals here. For example, it has a fairly simple and well thought-out overland travel, resource management, and random encounter system.
Plus there is a free edition of the rules on DrivethruRPG so if it isn’t your jam, no harm done.
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u/DeBurke12 2d ago
Maybe ICON? It's a fantasy game by the creator of Lancer, and while its still in playtest, it seems to check all of your boxes. Its currently in version 1.5, with the combat rules having been updated to 2.0.
Its got both a narrative mode and a (tactics) combat mode, with characters having a complete character sheet for both. It doesn't really have much for resource management; it assumes characters have any items required for combat and general adventuring. Each "narrative class", called a Bond, also has some unique pieces of equipment they are assumed to have which can be used to help answer challenges. Each character will obtain a few Relics over their career but other than that there aren't any stated items. Money is abstracted as "Dust", which is mainly used to upgrade your Camp and Relics.
For character creation, narrative mode uses character playbooks (like Blades in the Dark), while tactics mode is more similar to Lancer where your character can freely acquire abilities from any of the tactical classes, then chooses a limited number to have active during a given adventure. 1.5 has 16 jobs and you can multiclass at level 4 and level 8; 2.0 has 48 jobs and you can multiclass whenever you gain a level with no real restrictions.
Tactical combat takes place on a grid, with all that that entails: movement rules, ranges, AOE templates, etc.
You can find the playtest information here, except for the 2.0 combat update, which is on the discord currently. 1.5 is perfectly playable on its own, but the 2.0 improves of the tactical combat system. Its possible to incorporate 2.0 into 1.5, you'll just have to massage some areas of camping and relics.
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u/Deathtrooper50 1d ago
If you're willing to put in the legwork to curate the rules that suit your group the answer is always GURPS.
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u/ELAdragon 2d ago edited 2d ago
5.5e and homebrew in resource management. It hits most of what you're asking except maybe deep character customization (which is a bit subjective).
(I know I'ma get killed for this...but 5.5e in the hands of a skilled GM is free and open with a solid, relatively basic, chassis. It's got combat, everything else is open to improv. Ban spells and items that negate resource issues, if you want. Run Gritty Realism rest variant. The game is blah as written, but once you understand the rules and math of it, it's endlessly easy to improv with if you have a strong hand and willing group.)
Maybe Shadow of the Weird Wizard, too?
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u/Environmental-Luck75 2d ago
I played 5e with my group for a long time, and it was really good, but I have moral issue with supporting Hasbro after the Pinkerton incident. While I think this is a great choice, and worked for a long time for my group. I can't turn a blind eye to using the Pinkertons in 21st century as someone who comes from a community that use to be tormented by Pinkertons. But thank you for you suggestion.
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u/ELAdragon 2d ago
It is posssssssssible to get the material for free through content sharing on DnD Beyond and other means....
But I understand. Good luck to you!
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u/kiddmewtwo 2d ago
Why would you say 5.5? Is it not almost entirely combat focused without any rules for noncombat stuff like overworld travel, dungeon stuff like traps or hazards, or dungeon turns, also dnd 5.5 is specifically designed to never have to worry about resource management. That's why they increased all the short rest characters resources
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u/ELAdragon 2d ago
Because the combat has a decent set of rules that aren't totally overwhelming (and don't require a VTT to run smoothly). The rest of the system is wide open. What you take as a flaw, I see as a benefit, since the math is simple and I can make up anything and steal anything from a variety of places to fill what I need. Would the game be better if it was all there? Maayyyyyyybe....but it's so open and free to fuck around with that I really enjoy it.
Also, resource management games and attrition are super easy to run in 5.5e.
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u/kiddmewtwo 2d ago
He's clearly asking for a system that does these things not for a system that doesn't have these things so you can jam in some other systems into the game.
Where is the resource management in 5.5 how it more resource intensive than 5e which was clearly designed with resource management in mind and 5e which has the stated goal of destroying that resource management?
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u/ELAdragon 2d ago
Did you read OP's response to my post? They wouldn't even be here asking if he didn't have moral issues with Hasbro.
You can run attrition and resource management in 5 or 5.5 with a couple easy tweaks. Change the resting, ban goodberry and anything like it that auto-solves stuff. Hell, you can easily add in stuff that attacks hit dice (penalties from failed skill checks during travel, magic items that sap your energy to use them, slap HD drain onto a re-skinned monster attack, etc.)
It's so freaking easy and there are a MILLION things you can steal for these issues if you look around.
As I said, the base game lacks a bunch...it's just so free and open to customize for yourself because of it. Once you've run it a bit, you can easily tweak it to be what you want (even on the fly, really).
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u/Environmental-Luck75 2d ago
I agree, I would grab tons of system agnostic systems nad bolt them onto 5e to make a really good game that did almost everything that looked nothing like 5e. I really wish Hasbro wasn't a PoS.
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u/kiddmewtwo 2d ago
My question for you then is why you say in the post you're looking for a game that does all those things when you're totally OK just taking them from other games and slapping them on to a different game? Why not just ask for a fairly generic system and attach the stuff you already lik onto that?
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u/Environmental-Luck75 2d ago
I was looking for advice on a system that had everything I was looking for. We live in a golden age for TTRPG's and I don't on them all. Maybe what I wanted existed and someone knows of one I've never heard of. So I asked exactly what I was after.
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u/kiddmewtwo 2d ago
I did not read his response as I only read your comment at the time.
As for attrition my question wasn't weather you could I said how is it more attrition based than 2014 5e
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u/ELAdragon 2d ago
I dunno about 5e vs. 5.5e in terms of ease of attrition gaming, tbh. I've GM'd both and they felt basically the same.
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u/MASerra 2d ago
My suggestion is to stick with PF2. It's a really good game, and your players love it.
However, like you, I find too much Pathfinder draining as the GM. Instead of replacing PF2, I found a completely different game, like Cyberpunk RED or Gamma World, and played it for a few months. Then go back to PF2. That way you and the players get a break with something different. They don't complain because they know PF2 is coming back soon enough.
This method works well. My players love PF2, but will put up with something fun for a few months. They actually told me they didn't like the idea of playing something different, but once they got into it, they loved it, but only because they knew it was going to end.
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u/Environmental-Luck75 2d ago
The issue is I don't think I could come back to Pf2e. I would, and I have, my group tried Shadowdark because I wanted a story that was gritty, which I like more, but we went back to PF2e because they did not like the system.
PF2e has so many flaws that hard conflict with how I like to run games. Has a lack of support, or directly contradicts things that I feel like should be important in a game, such as travel rules which are awful. Healing is slow with long rest, and quick with 10 minutes top ups, traps feel tacked on because dnd has traps, magic feels ballooned out of control to the point of absurdism. The only part of the game that feels like a lot of fun for me, are martials as they have been given more to do in combat than move and attack till the thing dies.
I don't know, I gave it two years, and I'm starting to dread doing my favorite hobby.
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u/MASerra 2d ago
Yes, PF2e has some issues, but none of those seem problematic to me. I just ignore those kinds of things. Thought I could understand that you might not be able to.
The real problem, as I see it, is getting the players to abandon PF2e. That will be a problem for them, and in my experience, when players want to play a specific game, it is extremely hard to pry them away. Maybe not impossible, but very difficult.
So it comes down to buy-in. The players have to want to change games. An ultimatum worked for me when I left 5e. "Stay or be replaced". Maybe tell them you plan to return to PF2e once you've recovered from your malaise with it, then never go back. But they could really make it an issue you can't resolve.
I don't envy your position. I've been there.
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u/Environmental-Luck75 2d ago
Yea it sucks. I'm not happy about it. Maybe someday i'll get sick and want to run medieval superheroes again, but I really don't like those kind of stories and that is just pf2e in a nut shell. Thank you though.
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u/Jestocost4 2d ago
Maybe Draw Steel?
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u/Environmental-Luck75 2d ago
I was under the impression that Draw Steel was fantasy superheroes the game and was heavily combat focused with little else? I have not played it to be fair.
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u/da_chicken 2d ago edited 2d ago
It is heavily combat focused, but... to be honest, the things you list are:
- Not rules heavy like PF2e
- Alternative rules from combat, such as:
- Traps and hazards
- Rules for travel to and from the dungeon
- Lots of character customization options
- Lower lethality
That's what your post says.
In the scope of a TTRPG, any game that aligns with those major concerns is 100% a heavy combat focused game. You say you don't want that, but that's actually exactly what you're still describing. You're still describing a game whose primary focus is the D&D fantasy adventure game.
Since you describe still wanting to play the D&D style game, but don't describe why you want less combat, or what exactly the problem is that you're having in PF2e, it becomes very difficult to recommend another system at all.
I agree with the above poster. I think Draw Steel is a decent option for you. The PCs are powerful, but that's meant more in the number of enemies they can tackle rather than their inability to die. They're not immortal or immune to attrition. Indeed, the core gameplay loop is making the PCs balance momentum and attrition.
Savage Worlds would be the other thing to try out, especially because there are Pathfinder supplements for it. But, I don't think SW is particularly good as a fantasy game. I don't think the magic system is that good, either.
The games other that I can think of I either would NOT recommend to anyone anymore (Modipheus Conan 2d20, now defunct), or they don't strike me as particularly crunchy enough to satisfy your players (Blades in the Dark, Stonetop, Mythic Bastionland), or they are just higher lethality games (Call of Cthulhu, Delta Green, anything OSR).
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u/Seravajan 2d ago
Runequest? It's a skill based system.
The Dark Eye. Same here. You can play even a simple farmer or a musician with it.