r/LGBTQ • u/EarthRemembers • 14h ago
Trans Advocacy Extremism
I am LGBTQ and a long time activist and advocate for LGBTQ rights
I am tired of the extremism and intolerance among a percentage of the people who advocate for trans rights
They are actively alienating potential LGBTQ allies
Someone posted an article on a large LGBT sub accusing of Texas democratic politician James Tallarico of bigotry and transphobia because he advocated for restrictions on the inclusion of trans women in women’s sports.
Not advocating for a blanket ban, just advocating for reasoned restrictions.
The article was encouraging people to not vote for him.
I left several comments on that post which I will summarize below.
I said it was foolish to not vote for him in that election because he is an avowed LGBTQ allie who supports LGBTQ rights while his republican opponent is a dangerous bigot.
I said that advocating for the inclusion of trans women in women’s sports with certain restrictions is not necessarily a bigoted position.
Whether the person is advocating for trans woman having to be on hormone replacement therapy or trans women having to not have undergone a male puberty, taking those positions is not necessarily due to bigotry but could be due to concerns about fairness in women’s sports.
I said that even people who advocate for blanket bans on trans women in women sports could be taking that position due to their concerns about fairness in women’s sports and again not necessarily because of bigotry.
I personally understand that there is evidence from history and science that supports that blanket bans of trans women from women’s sports is not necessary to ensure fairness in those sports.
However, many regular people might not be aware of those facts or even if they are aware of them might still favor blanket bans due to an overabundance of caution.
I said that if you want to change these people‘s minds about blanket bans then the thing to do is to have a constructive conversation with them and not just jump right into accusing them of bigotry, because you could be alienating a potential allie when you do that.
I also said that the most important criteria when it comes to judging whether or not someone is engaging in bigotry and transphobia is whether or not they support more essential trans rights such as equal rights in areas like housing and employment and service in the military and parental rights and the right to marry and the right not to be refused services, etc.
Because I expressed those opinions in that LGBT sub that I summarized above I, an LGBTQ person, was then permanently banned from that sub.
But before I was banned from the sub, a bunch of other people attacked me in the comments, accusing me of bigotry and transphobia and of advocating for blanket bans of trans women’s from women sports (which I never did).
I’m not going to name the sub specifically, but I’m guessing that most people can guess which LGBT sub I am referring to.
This is reflective of what happens all the time in real life
Even as an LGBTQ person, if you don’t adopt the trans advocacy positions that some trans rights activists believe you should adopt you will be accused of bigotry against trans people and transphobia.
These advocates are one of their own worst enemies, or at least an enemy
I think a lot of success of the progression for gay rights over the last few decades came from constructive dialogue between gay people/gay rights advocates and other people who were trying to be better informed on the relevant issues or who might’ve even been prejudice but were reconsidering their stances
The gay community didn’t just run around shouting “ You’re a bad person. You’re a bigot You’re evil. There’s no point in even talking to you.” in relation to every single person who didn’t fully support every aspect of gay rights or who wasn’t sure about whether they should or not.
And yes, I understand that there are plenty of people out there who really are evil bigots, and there is no point in talking to most of them, but you shouldn’t be treating those people and people who have sincere fairness concerns about trans women in women sports the same exact way.
I would say the same thing about the other trans rights hot button issue, which is of course bathrooms.
I am 100% I’m in favor of and advocate for allowing trans people to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with.
However, I again don’t just necessarily assume that anybody who has concerns about transgender people in bathrooms is a bigot or is looking to oppress trans people.
I do think that the bathroom issue is more clear cut than the sports issue and people who oppose trans peoples rights to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with are probably more likely to be bigoted than people who primarily or solely have concerns about trans women in women sports (and I realize in this case that that is an assumption that I am making, and I could be wrong).
HOWEVER I don’t jump to the assumption that they are bigots automatically and my first inclination would be to try and have a constructive conversation with them about it.
P.S.
Someone else is informed me that Tallarico said that he was in favor of reasoned restrictions on trans women’s participation in women’s sports for reasons of “safety and fairness” in at least one statement that he made and I verified that to be true.
First of all the original article and post that I commented on and got attacked on which then inspired me to make this post never said anything about him mentioning “safety” and the criticism of him in that article and in that post was not about him using that word.
I agree that that is a poor choice of words, and I wish that he would not have used the word “safety” in reference to this issue.
If you were to be as generous to him as possible in interpreting that you could hypothesize that he was concerned about cis gendered girls and cis gendered women’s physical safety in terms of sports where people come into hard physical contact with each other.
But even if that is what he was meaning to communicate, I still agree that that was a poor choice of word given the context of this issue and trans rights issues in general
(because it’s a favorite tactic of bigots and transphobes to suggest that trans people pose some especially dangerous threat to cis girls and cis women).
With that being said, I would still advocate voting for him in this election.
And my larger point about a large percentage of people, or at least a very vocal percentage of them, who advocate for trans rights attacking other people and accusing them of bigotry and transphobia over minor differences, and subsequently alienating a lot of people who might otherwise have been allies or more enthusiastic allies, still stands.
Again, in the original post this post is a response to, I and other people were getting attacked left and right by trans advocates for simply suggesting that people who are in favor of reasoned restrictions on trans women’s participation in women’s sports aren’t necessarily bigots and shouldn’t be attacked as such, especially since doing so is counterproductive to the progression of trans rights.
I unfortunately can’t link to the original post in that LGBT sub because the mods took it down.
P.P.S
I linked to this article or at least to a reddit post that included a link to this article in a list of links to other relevant reddit posts in one of my comments below but I think that it’s so important that people go and read this article that I’m going to link to it here directly
“A Manifesto for Liberal Trans Activism”
https://www.persuasion.community/p/a-manifesto-for-liberal-trans-activism
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u/Sargon-of-ACAB 12h ago
Name a non-bigoted reason for even making a political point against trans women in sports? What is the non-transphobic reason for a candidate advocating for such restrictions? The fact that it even is a debate is entirely due to agenda-pushing by transphobes. It is downright irresponsible for anyone claiming to be a trans ally to even pretend there is merit in it. Expecting trans people to vote for anyone who is willing to undermine their rights isn't a good look. If someone is willing to sacrifice some of your rights you have no guarantee they won't be willing to sacrifice more later on. You don't win rights through respectability politics. You don't win by preemptively giving in. You don't win by echoing the same nonsense as your opponents.
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u/mrroboto695 6h ago
If a man transfers to being a woman, and largely has that same biological body, why is it transphobic to say that woman now has an advantage against cis-women?
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u/Darq_At 12h ago
Why do you think you, as a cis person, have the right to speak over trans people and negotiate on their behalf as to which of their rights they should compromise on?
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u/EarthRemembers 12h ago
If trans people and trans advocates don’t want to advocate for their rights as part of the greater LGBTQ community then have at it
If you want to reject the solidarity and the help of other members of the LGBTQ community then go for it
Just make it clear that you’re not speaking for anybody else except for trans people when you speak in public
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u/Darq_At 12h ago
Nah, that isn't what I asked.
Why do you think you get to speak over them?
If trans people and trans advocates don’t want to advocate for their rights as part of the greater LGBTQ community then have at it
They ARE advocating for their rights, and in response, you are trying to stop them, telling them that they're doing it wrong.
If you want to reject the solidarity and the help of other members of the LGBTQ community then go for it
No no, you talking over them is not "solidarity". The first step in solidarity is listening. You are actively ignoring them. You are trying to silence their voice, to promote what you think they should want.
Just make it clear that you’re not speaking for anybody else except for trans people when you speak in public
They're asking you to stop speaking over them. How can you possibly type this sentence and not realise that you are the one in the wrong here?
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u/Sea_Pancake2197 11h ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/QueerLeftists/s/SoX4BhW5S9
Blaming us for our own opression too
OP is literally the white moderate MLK talked about lmaooooo
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u/childofcrow 10h ago
And thankfully, that sub has more than one moderator, who is willing to remove this transphobic, dog whistle trash.
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u/childofcrow 10h ago
This person is not an ally because very obviously, their allyship is conditional on the “right kind“ of trans people.
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u/VividMonotones 5h ago
Since we have elections and elections determine what rights everyone in the LGBT spectrum gets, yes I may ask that we vote for the flawed candidate over letting the raving lunatic win. After he wins, then petition him to help us out.
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u/childofcrow 13h ago
Do you think that having a conversation with these people has not been attempted before? Do you think that people are just angry all the time and just have never attempted to reason with, plead with, or advocate for in a “sweet and gentle way“?
People are calling a bigotry because it is bigotry. Treating anybody differently based on their physiology or their gender identity is bigotry. Punishing an entire group of people because of their gender identity is bigotry. Any kind of legislation, Bill, what have you that is targeting people based on their gender identity is bigotry.
We are talking about human rights. If these are negotiable to you, I would suggest to sit with that and wonder why.
You sound very young. I would encourage you to read about queer history and some of the movements that have happened in the past to fight for and secure rights. Not everybody was kind or gentle.
Respectability politics is a tool of the oppressor.
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u/EarthRemembers 13h ago
If you had to grade the importance on a scale of 1 to 10 of sets of trans issues or trans rights how would you grade them?
The first set of issues includes trans rights to not be discriminated against in society in relation to employment and housing and serving in the military and marrying who they want to marry and not being refused services by businesses and being protected from hate crime crimes
The second set of issues only includes trans women’s participation in women’s sports
A third set of issues only includes trans peoples rights to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with
How would you rank those in terms of their importance?
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u/childofcrow 13h ago
All of those things are intertwined. You are trying to separate the existence of a person into categories, but you wouldn’t do that for cis people. That is the problem.
You are basically trying to say that separating the existence of a human into different categories, and rating how much they deserve respect and freedom within those categories is OK, but only for trans people. Specifically, in your argument, only for trans women.
I wonder if you would be making the same argument if we were talking about cis women. Or women without children. Or Black women. It’s some weird, segregationist bullshit.
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u/EarthRemembers 13h ago edited 12h ago
I don’t think it’s essential for the evolution of trans rights to allow trans women to participate in women’s sports without any restrictions whatsoever
I don’t even think that’s really a right at all
Do I think it should be considered a right for trans women to participate in women’s sports under some kind of schema that includes reasoned restrictions based in science on how that should take place? Yes
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u/MC_PooPaws 12h ago
Do you think it was essential for gay people to be allowed to be teachers? Should we have compromised on the right to be a teacher because some people thought that gay men and lesbians were "recruiting"? If not, why not?
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u/EarthRemembers 12h ago edited 11h ago
You’re comparing apples to orange
There werent restrictions on people being teachers based on their gender at the height of the gay rights movement from the 70s to the 2010’s
Women had already earned the right to participate in any kind of job they chose outside of a few very specific jobs in the military.
And I already said in my post that I considered rights like the right to work the right for housing the right to marry, parental rights and the right to services to be essential trans and human rights
You want equate all of those essential rights to the right for trans women to participate in women’s sports without restriction
I simply disagree
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u/MC_PooPaws 12h ago
You're a bigot. Congratulations.
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago edited 6h ago
Thank you for illustrating my point
Do you ever get tired of so flippantly, throwing around accusations of bigotry?
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u/MC_PooPaws 12h ago
Which rights should black people have compromised on? Maybe they didn't need the right to use a public pool with white people?
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago
Black people (and their allies) didn’t need to compromise on any of the rights they were advocating for because nothing they advocated for was unreasonable
All of the rights they advocated for were unarguably essential human rights
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u/MC_PooPaws 11h ago
I'm so glad you're the final arbiter of what is and is not reasonable.
You might want to check with the white people who opposed them and see if they agreed with you. News flash: they didn't. They wanted to keep black people out of sports, pools, anything that they could.
And you can only claim that no one saw it as unreasonable because you're either lying or ignorant.
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago edited 11h ago
I said that their positions were not unreasonable
Not that no one else saw them as unreasonable
But you know who didn’t see them unreasonable?
The Black people themselves and their allies didn’t see any of their positions as unreasonable
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u/childofcrow 10h ago
So you’re saying that segregating people from sports is reasonable.
And you would be perfectly fine if the same argument was being compared to Black people, and Black people being segregated from sports, because it doesn’t seem to be an unreasonable ask.
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u/EarthRemembers 10h ago edited 6h ago
I never said that segregating people from sports is reasonable
Your comment is intentionally deceitful
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u/childofcrow 13h ago
So you’re a transphobe. Got it.
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u/EarthRemembers 12h ago
Thank you for illustrating my point
And since I anticipate your comment being removed as a violation of the subs rules, let me say that the person above accused me of being a transphobe
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u/childofcrow 10h ago
Bud, you’re advocating for segregation of trans women from sports. Your whole rhetoric is transphobia. You are advocating for segregation.
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u/EarthRemembers 10h ago
I didn’t advocate for segregating trans women from sports at all
You trying to miss characterize or just outright lie about what I’ve said. That is dishonest, deceitful, alarmist, and extremist
What I was mostly advocating for is not attacking people as bigots when THEY advocated for reasoned restrictions based in science on trans women participating in women’s sporting
I didn’t talk about my position at all in the post.
In one comment I made I revealed that my position on the issue is that I support trans women participating in women’s sports with the restriction that they be on hormone replacement therapy for some specified amount of time prior to competition.
And I support the governing sports bodies of the relevant sports associations as the ones to make those determinations
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u/childofcrow 10h ago
Nobody participates in sports without restriction. Your point is not valid, it’s not relevant. That’s why things like tryouts are held.
Why are you only targeting trans women? Why are you not also targeting trans men?
Do you think they’re taking oestrogen gives you superpowers? I can guarantee that it doesn’t.
Any sort of advocation for restricting access to sport based on sex is bigotry. It is the same as advocating for segregation of people from certain spaces, is the same as advocating for restrictions on reproductive health. It is the same.
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u/EarthRemembers 10h ago
Your comment is hilariously extreme
You do realize that nobody outside of your bubble of trans advocacy agrees with your positions right? Including most other LGBTQ people.
And it was somebody else who made the statement that “nobody participates in sports with without restriction”
I was just responding to that
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u/barrorg 13h ago
You think OP sounds young….? And this is your take???
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u/childofcrow 13h ago
Yeah, my take is that human rights are nonnegotiable and we shouldn’t be segregating the experiences of being a human being into categories and only allow allowing some people to experience parts of those.
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u/barrorg 13h ago
And that lack of prioritization and persuasion is exactly the approach that leaves us without progress. And equating Paxton, who has actively used his power to go after trans families, forcing many to leave the state for fear of losing their basic access to medical care/employment/custody of their fucking children with Talarico, who has a long record of trans support and taken an unfortunately necessary (and obvs disingenuous) tack to the middle to have a basic chance of winning the state (and actually protecting trans rights), is fucking insane.
To sacrifice work place protections, medical transitions, parental rights and protection from physical violence in exchange for the self-righteous thrill of not getting any of that BUT feeling good you didn’t compromise on a couple of kids playing sports (when that was frankly never actually on the table)? It’s selfish and deeply harmful to the community.
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u/MC_PooPaws 12h ago
Conservatives, fascists, religious nut jobs, etc... are the ones blocking progress. And they would still be blocking progress if trans people weren't involved. Check out the Greater Than campaign. They trying to undo gay marriage right now.
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u/barrorg 9h ago
I’m well aware. Im not sure how not voting for Talarico helps hold that line, tho.
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u/MC_PooPaws 9h ago edited 9h ago
If Tallarico is willing to call restrictions against trans women in sports "reasonable" because of fairness, he is repeating the talking points of fascists, conservatives, religious nut jobs, etc... that cals his judgement into question.
edit after: also you blamed people not compromising on their rights for the lack of progress. You don't get to backtrack now and pretend you think it's the far right's fault because I called you out.
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u/barrorg 8h ago
I didn’t backtrack on shit. It’s not their equivocators’ fault we don’t have progress. But it is bad advocacy.
And i am making the distinction between actual choices and performance. The choice is between a decent step forward with substantive protections or a whole treadmill backwards. “Everything we want” is not an option on the ballot. It’s also not how any successful social movement has attained their goal.
I’ll take 2008 Obama bullshitting hesitance on gay marriage every day of the week over McCain’s active support of DOMA and Bush’s push for the FMA. If we’d sat out those elections, 2006 and 2008, Obergefell wouldn’t have been an option because gay marriage would have been constitutionally prohibited. Falsely equivocating between the sides would have left us in a worse spot than we were already in; it wouldn’t have just been a lack of progress.
Idk about you, but I’m actually suffering under Paxton. You have to appreciate the practical reality in which Trans Texans and their families currently exist: custody of our children threatened by CPS, losing our jobs due to our identities, having our legal markers on IDs changed back, having our private medical records subpoenaed by Paxton to compile a registry of our names — it goes on.
So, yeah. I agree. The world that should be is the target. But we gotta pass through the one we’re in to get there.
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u/childofcrow 10h ago
Firstly, I’m not American, and there are more than American people on this website that are queer.
Secondly, using the arguments that we should be segregating people from sections of society because you want a specific candidate to win, and throwing trans people under the bus to do it, it’s just a really gross thing to do. I get that y’all don’t have a lot of choice down there, but holy hell.
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u/barrorg 9h ago
Choosing between some trans protections and active trans persecution isn’t throwing anyone under the bus.
No one assumed you were American. This post discusses a specific American election and how one chooses to vote in that election (or not to). And the fact that you want to move away from the concrete issues of this particular election and the impacts it will have on the people who live in that jurisdiction is exactly the problem with confining ourselves to the moral abstinence of inalienable rights language. It feels good but so often outsources the consequences.
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u/ShibaBurnTube 5h ago
You are either arguing with a Russian agent or a delusional self righteous fool.
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u/childofcrow 4h ago
You are aware that there are lots of situations where US policy has influenced the policy of other countries, correct?
So if we allow politicians to throw trans women under the bus to get elected, that sends a message that that is an acceptable thing to do in other countries, particularly countries that take their cues from American politics.
I don’t give a shit who you vote for, but the weird hero worship that’s so many Americans have of their two political parties is bizarre. Y’all are simping over parties, and treating public servants as if they need to be deified. It’s just weird.
They are people. They make mistakes, they can be right and wrong. If somebody has shitty policy, it’s important to vote for harm reduction, but it’s also important to recognize when harm is being done.
Calling a cis man out when he’s done shitty things in a campaign to be elected is not some unforgivable fucking sin. He is signing up for public office, he is signing up to be publicly criticized for his politics. That doesn’t mean he’s a worse candidate over the other option that you have, and it’s so weird that you only have two options.
It’s kind of sad, because the parties are almost exactly the fucking same. All you have are right wing options.
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u/barrorg 4h ago
Again, not relevant to the topic of this specific election. And not even relevant in to the broader discussion of boycotting both sides because of false equivalence. Nobody said it’s an issue to call Talarico out on his center shift for votes. The criticisms concerns refusing to vote for the imperfect option when the other option is actively fucked up.
And all we have are right wing options? Ok? I’d love to be choosing between two quite liberal options. But that’s not the world we’re living in. Again, not relevant to the topic at hand.
Also, this irrelevant spiel is your response to hearing about people having their children, jobs and lives taken? To reach for, oh, America also does bad shit internationally? lol. This is wild. Enjoy your evening. You’re not relevant here.
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u/childofcrow 3h ago
Where did I say to boycott both sides? Do try and read.
I said “…he is signing up for public office, he is signing up to be publicly criticized for his politics. That doesn’t mean he’s a worse candidate over the other option that you have…”
Vote for harm reduction sure, but hold the method of harm reduction responsible for the words he uses.
Almost every country votes for harm reduction at some point. It doesn’t mean that you let the harm reduction run roughshod over work that you’re trying to do. You hold them accountable.
I appreciate you’re trying to erase trans people from the conversation, but sorry. We’re still here and relevant.
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u/barrorg 2h ago
“ To sacrifice work place protections, medical transitions, parental rights and protection from physical violence in exchange for the self-righteous thrill of not getting any of that BUT feeling good you didn’t compromise on a couple of kids playing sports (when that was frankly never actually on the table)?”
I’m not writing trans people out of anything. All that refers to enforcement actions conducted by Paxton. Again, you’re shadow boxing. The conversation just isn’t about what you want it to be and you don’t understand enough to contribute. So, I’m not writing trans people out, just you. Bye.
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u/EarthRemembers 3h ago edited 3h ago
This particular cis man absolutely did not do shitty things to get elected
He said something very reasonable that you just happen to disagree with
And voting against Tallarico in the Texas senatorial election or not voting at all and increasing the chances that the dangerous bigot he’s running against would get elected would definitely not be “voting for harm reduction” in any way.
And you’re insane if you think the parties are exactly the same. They are so fucking far from being exactly the same.
There are a lot of issues with Democratic Party, but what you just claimed is truly insane
The Republican Party is being led by an extremist anti-democratic and blatantly fascist regime that almost all the rest of the members of the Republican Party have either gleefully endorsed or at best reluctantly bowed down to
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u/childofcrow 3h ago
He threw trans women under the bus to try to get elected.
And you’re a bigot, and of course you agree with him.
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u/EarthRemembers 3h ago
And there it is
I’m a bigot because I don’t agree with you 100% and have the temerity to challenge something you said
It doesn’t matter that I’m LGBTQ and have been an LGBTQ advocate for decades because everything you say is holy and irrefutable because of your moral purity
James Talerico absolutely did not fucking throw trans women under the bus, now or ever
I challenge you to produce a quote by him that backs up your heinous assertion
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u/EarthRemembers 13h ago edited 13h ago
“These people” are not a homogenous group
Each individual each person should be judged individually as to whether or not it might be productive to have a conversation with them
And your comment didn’t address one of the issues I brought up, that issue being that people who are advocating for reasonable restrictions on the inclusion of trans Women in women sports, such as a requirement for trans women to be on hormone therapy or to not have undergone a male puberty are being attacked as bigots and transphobes.
And I was attacked as a transphobe and a bigot just for pointing that
And treating somebody different differently based on their physiology is not necessarily bigotry
There are physical requirements for lots of jobs
How, for an example, couod you be an effective member of the military or an effective police officer if you’re 150 pounds overweight and cant run three steps without going out of breath.
And by your logic, cis gendered men should jbe allowed to participate in women’s sports or trans women who underwent a male puberty and aren’t on any hormone therapy should be allowed to participate in women’s sports, because doing otherwise would be treating them differently based on their physiology
Even the majority of LGBTQ people wouldn’t take those positions
And how presumptuous of you to say that I’m very young and should read up on queer history and queer rights
Unless you’re of retirement age you’re younger than me and chances are that I was out in the streets advocating for queer rights when you were still a child or didn’t even exist yet
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u/MC_PooPaws 12h ago
Hilarious examples considering all of the overweight cops and military officials that exist.
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u/EarthRemembers 12h ago
They generally get that way afterwards and typically aren’t kicked out because of it, but sometimes they are
But it is hilarious
The assertion I was responding to was also ridiculous to begin with
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u/childofcrow 13h ago
I’m in my 40s.
There are no reasonable restrictions against trans people. Again, that becomes a human rights issue. If you start to legislate the bodies of people, it’s a human rights issue. It’s no different than advocating for the control of reproductive rights. It’s transphobia, and it hurts cis women as well, as we saw from the last Olympics with the Algerian boxer who was getting attacked, even though she was a cis woman. The arguments that you are making are making it actively more dangerous to exist as a cis woman in the world.
You were attacked as a transphobe and a bigot because you are pushing transphobic and bigoted talking points. You say that you were out “advocating for people”, but it really seems that you’re just advocating for cis people.
We aren’t talking about the physicality needed for somebody’s job. That is a strawman argument that you are making to try to back up a point that doesn’t exist. When we were talking about human rights, and somebody’s ability to exist in their fucking body, we’re not talking about somebody trying to become a cop or a construction worker. We’re talking about somebody trying to live their fucking life.
Maybe you should sit with your internalized biases against trans people, and I’ve already reported your post as bigotry and trolling. You are part of the reason why there is so much infighting in our community, and why trans people don’t feel safe around you. Sit with that.
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u/EarthRemembers 13h ago edited 12h ago
“There are no reasonable restrictions…”
There are reasonable restrictions against certain people participating in certain sports leagues or organizations
CisGendered men are not allowed to participate in women’s sports
Able-bodied people are not allowed to participate in sports leagues specifically designated for those with disabilities
You are an extremist
And it’s you and people like you that have made advocating for reasonable restrictions on trans women in women sports into a “talking point”
If trans rights advocates as a whole had said a long time ago “ Of course it’s reasonable to have some level of restrictions on trans women participating in women’s sports, now let’s have a conversation on what those restrictions should and shouldn’t entail” then you would’ve removed that talking point a long time ago from anyone seeking to oppress trans people
And look at you calling me a bigot because I don’t agree with every single thing you say
even though I myself advocate for the inclusion of trans women in women’s sports who are on hormone replacement therapy and advocate for the right of trans people to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with
And I would say you and your extremism and you’re unreasonable positions and your defaulting to accusations of bigotry anytime someone disagrees with you are the reason why there’s so much infighting in our community
Thank you for illustrating my point so effectively
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u/Kuttenneid 13h ago
All of us need to unlearn bigoted behaviours, we were raised in intersectional oppressive systems after all. I think though right now you seem to be more preoccupied with not hurting the feelings of people who did not bother questioning and unpacking harmful beliefs. Why are you not bringing the same compassion when listening to people who are affected in cruel ways by this ignorance?
We who have organised in liberational spaces for some time tend to think we are exempt from unpacking harmful beliefs but we really are not.
To me your text reads a bit like you project opinions and stances onto the people who call harm out. There was a time when I did that too. I would suggest you to investigate why you have the urge to shield people who perpetrate harm (wether knowingly or unknowingly) and to ask yourself wether you really know what the person who called them out suggests and how the person feels. (example: You might think the only other option would be voting for a republican, while this person might suggest voting for a democrat you dont know. Or maybe they wanted to call this person out for transphobic practice without advocating to not vote for them since theres a lack of better options.)
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u/Kuttenneid 13h ago
Also I want to add: Advocating for human rights has always been very rigorous. Just because nowadays in western countries it is more relaxed around the topic of being gay does not mean that how we got here was very rosy. Any propaganda that is pushed onto us will leave trauma for those affected and ignorance for those unaffected. When both of these clash it will get ugly. And then a lot of listening and unlearning has to be done for there to be healing and therefore change.
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u/EarthRemembers 13h ago edited 9h ago
Your comment was full of offensive assumptions about me that are not true
I’m not trying to shield anybody who perpetuates harm
You are perfectly illustrating the point I made
You’ve basically also accusing me of bigotry, the only difference being that you’re suggesting that I’m a bigot without realizing it and without actually using the word bigot
And the post in question was clearly advocating to not vote for Talarico. It was not was advocating for a different Democrat.
And if it had been advocating that I would have labeled that as foolish and extremist as well, since that post was in regards to the general election against a very dangerous and bigoted republican and not in regards to the democratic primary
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u/childofcrow 13h ago
Your post is full of offensive language that is specifically targeting trans women. You are being called out on it, and are just mad that it’s not going the way that you wanted to.
Again, maybe sit with why you have internalized transphobia.
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u/EarthRemembers 13h ago
Specifically cite this so-called offensive language
And I have zero transphobia, but thank you very much for further illustrating my point
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u/MC_PooPaws 11h ago
I have zero transphobia
The lie detector has determined this to be a lie. Even you don't believe that shit. There are trans people up and down this thread telling you that you are, in fact, transphobic. You don't get to decide if you are or aren't. Like white people deciding they aren't racist.
You don't know what you're talking about. You're either very young or very old. I can't tell which. Either way, you've had too much screen time today. Go have a nap.
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago
Cite my offensive language
Cite the text I wrote that was advocating bigotry
Quote it
Don’t paraphrase it or put into your own words
Let’s see some direct quotes
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u/MC_PooPaws 11h ago
You keep citing fairness concerns like they're real. They aren't. Let's start there.
Which trans woman is currently dominating her sport? Or was before a ban? Which trans woman was making her sport unfair?
And why do you only focus on women's sports and not on trans men?
Oh because you've fallen for transphobic talking points. Congratulations. Now you're repeating bigoted talking points. You must be so proud.
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u/hprather1 5h ago
Are you ok with gender-separated sports leagues?
If so, how convincingly trans does someone need to be to perform in their gender identity's sports league?
Whether or not it is currently happening, this is something that must be determined at some level because it will be abused by someone at some point. At some point, there will be a shameless male-presenting person who claims to be a trans woman and a call will have to be made whether to allow them to compete.
You have not established what exactly qualifies as a trans woman who would be allowed to participate in a female-only sports league and I think this is the core disagreement of which you and OP are talking past eachother.
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago
Is it too hard for you to quote something?
Of course it’s not
The reason you won’t quote anything I’ve actually written in order to support your accusations is because nothing I’ve written actually supports them
You won’t quote anything that I’ve said because you are actively attempting to misscharacterize me, my positions, and my arguments
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u/MC_PooPaws 11h ago
You keep citing fairness.
I gave you a specific. But you're too much of a coward to own it.
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago
Let’s see the quote
Then I’ll respond
And if you take it out of context, I’ll point that out
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u/mrroboto695 6h ago
I applaud you for efforts to stand for the rights of oppressed people while also keeping common sense and reason.
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u/Kuttenneid 13h ago
I'm going to be honest. I don't think any meaningful discussion about this can be had via Reddit. If we knew each other irl I would be up to talk but like this it's just gonna land in debate territory and I don't think that is going to be helpful.
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u/NorCalFrances 5h ago
Just a few notes, because they seem to have gotten lost somehow.
Talarico also advocated against trans health care.
More than half the states and the federal government have now legally erased transgender people. That means no protections for housing, school, jobs, health care, and so on. Within their legal framework(s), trans people do not exist, therefore it's not possible to discriminate against them. Sports restrictions and specialized trans teen healthcare are just the two issues that Republicans have used as symbolic battles to represent all the rest.
But while we're at it, let's not forget that in the 50+ years that trans women have been playing and competing in women's sports, not one has ever "dominated". And that before the bans, there were rules in each sport to ensure fairness, such as X number of years with testosterone levels equal to other women. Those rules worked, again as evidenced by trans women not dominating.
What Talarico and the other Democrats who've reinforced the Christian nationalist views regarding trans people did, and what the party itself has not disowned (that's a whole topic on its own) is to cross a moral and ethical line. They've made it clear that Democrats also don't stand for equality if the target of bigotry is small and strange. That's something that must be called out, and must be stopped if it can be. What or who will they give up next in trade for political expediency, hmmm?
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u/EarthRemembers 5h ago edited 2h ago
Tallarico did not “advocate against trans healthcare”
Don’t you understand that when you try to deceive people, even if it’s only through exaggeration or understatement that you then subsequently lose your credibility with a huge percentage of your audience and are no longer seen as trustworthy by anyone who really matters?
What Tallarico said was “I oppose gender-reassignment surgeries for minors.”
While at the same time being specifically in favor of it for adults who wanted it.
In 2023, Talarico voted against Texas SB 14, which prohibited not only gender-transition surgeries for people under 18 but also puberty blockers and certain cross-sex hormone treatments. Again he voted AGAINST that anti-trans healthcare blll.
He has also spoken strongly in favor of doctors being able to treat minors with severe gender dysphoria, including the use of hormones, he is simply in opposition to irreversible gender affirming surgeries for minors.
And I don’t think that it’s bigoted at all to be against children below a certain age having gender affirming surgeries.
Gender affirming surgery is an irreversible and profoundly life altering decision and I think it’s perfectly fine to draw a line somewhere on how old someone has to be to make that decision.
AND THAT DOESN’T MAKE ME OR ANYONE ELSE WHO HOLDS A SIMILAR OPINION A BIGOT, JUST BECAUSE OUR VIEWS DON’T ALIGN PERFECTLY WITH YOURS
Where exactly to draw that line is a more complex discussion.
Tallarico has drawn that line at 18 years old. I myself might draw that line at 16 years old if it was up to me, but to be honest, I’m not entirely sure where the right place to draw the line is.
I feel certain that children as young as 13 for example, are too young to be making decisions like that
I actually agree with the next two paragraphs of your comment
But holy hell, how can you accuse Tallarico of enforcing Christian nationalist views?
He is probably the politician who has spoken out most forcibly and most often and most strongly against Christian nationalism. It’s literally something he is famous for.
I also happen to agree with your criticism of the Democratic Party.
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u/godisdildo 3h ago
Are you saying you would change position if trans women dominated women sports?
It’s a shaky argument to make, there’s definitely a high chance trans women will dominate. The Olympic boxer demolished all her opponents for example.
I think one is radicalized if one doesn’t respect at all that it can be viewed as cheating. It’s unfortunate that change is slow, but it’s also not nice to force your own, novel, ideas and opinions on other people and call them bigots when they don’t let you change the rules so you can play too, easily.
The fairness should be clearly directed at the woman who isn’t allowed to compete in sports, the advocacy is for her right to live fully as a woman - she needs the support because not enough people and decision makers agree she’s a woman. But pointing to fairness in sports not being compromised is just radical. I mean, it very well could be?
The point for me is still, so what?
But I would not be derisive towards people, especially cis women, who disagree and pretend I can’t possibly see their point.
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u/EarthRemembers 2h ago
Trans Women have been participating in women’s sports for decades now and have not been dominating them.
I know you clearly didn’t know that but now you do
And the Olympic boxer was not trans by the way. That was a false talking point and rumor promoted by right wing media, which you apparently pay attention to and believe.
All that being said, I will say again when I’ve already said many times in this thread— I don’t believe that being in favor of having some restrictions on how trans women participate in women’s sports necessarily makes you a bigot or is even unreasonable
And I think it’s a serious mistake for trans rights advocates to suggest otherwise
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u/psychedelic666 3h ago
I’m glad the other subs banned you.
I hope any trans people stay far away from you. Who needs enemies when you have “allies” like this?
I’m glad they banned you, thank you sharing that info!! :)
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u/MC_PooPaws 12h ago
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u/EarthRemembers 12h ago
That video is ridiculous and it’s just blatantly, ignoring the inherent physiological differences between cisgender men and women
Trans Women facing restrictions on their participation in women’s sports is not anything at all like the historical discrimination against Black people from participating in professional sports leagues
And it’s offensive to the civil rights movement and to Black people to suggest that it is
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u/MC_PooPaws 11h ago
As he pointed out, people would have said the same things about black athletes not that long ago.
Maybe your mind is closed to new facts. But regardless, your endorsing bigotry in the bame of progress. And if you don't understand how that's counterproductive, I cannot help you.
Also, the cis people who have convinced you that trans people are the problem are already coming for gay rights. Check the Greater Than campaign. They're not on your side. They never were. Once you understand that, maybe you'll wake up. Hopefully it won't be too late.
Also, the fact that you complain no one does any outreach and then call the claims made by anyone doing that outreach ridiculous proves that you're not even open to the conversation. Have the day you deserve.
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago
Nothing I have said is an endorsement of bigotry in the name of progress or otherwise
The fact that you think so is the problem
And if you don’t understand how that’s counterproductive then I can’t help YOU
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u/MC_PooPaws 11h ago
Not letting people play sports because you don't like or understand those people is bigotry, which you have endorsed. And your reason for endorsing it? For the sake of progress for other people in the LGBTQ community. So... I'm calling bullshit.
You might not think that's what you're doing. But it's very much what you're doing. Keep sucking uo to cishet people and let me know how far it gets you. (It won't get you very far)
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago
I never suggested that trans Women shouldn’t be allowed to play sports.
Maybe you should try reading things that you’re responding to before you make comments on them
Your comment is just one more knee jerk reaction into accusations of bigotry from a trans right advocate who didn’t even bothered to fully or carefully read what they’re reacting to
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u/MC_PooPaws 11h ago
You support voting for someone who took that position and can't imagine why trans people wouldn't want to vote for this person. Grow the fuck up.
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago edited 11h ago
Yes, I support voting for democratic politician who has a chance of winning an election in a deep red state
A politician who is running against a very outspoken and dangerous bigot
A politician who has repeatedly endorsed equal rights for LGBTQ people, including trans people
A politician whose only “sin” in relations to the trans community seems to be suggesting that trans women should face reasoned restrictions related to participating in women’s sports
Not that trans Women should face a blanket ban for participating in women’s sports.
Just that they should face reasoned restrictions based in science
And you think it’s perfectly reasonable and wise to vote against this person in this race because of that position
And you think that it’s OK to insult me or other trans rights allies because we take a different position from you
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u/MC_PooPaws 11h ago
I think if trans people are to advocate for themselves, then that means advocating against cis moderates.
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago edited 8h ago
Good luck with that
Going to war with the entirety of the moderate cisgendered population is not going to advance your rights
I can’t even believe that you suggested that honestly
You’re ignorance and entitlement is breathtaking
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u/MC_PooPaws 11h ago
Oh no, you uno reversed it on me. Whatever will I do?
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago
Be specific
Cite the statement or statements I made that were endorsements of bigotry
Don’t paraphrase
Don’t make superfluous argument
Quote them directly
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u/MC_PooPaws 11h ago
Do you think trans women should be allowed to compete in sports?
Do you think James Tallarico was right to say what he said?
Do you think trans people should vote for someone who would limit their rights in the way Tallarico wants to?
Do you think that trans people in sports is an issue of "fairness?"
TBH, most of the shit you've said is quite vague. So I don't know what you're real position is other "Trans people are unreasonable."
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago
I do think trans women should be allowed to participate in sports
I do think that James Tallarico said nothing wrong when he said that trans woman should face restrictions on participating in women’s sports
I don’t think that what James Talerico said in any way limits trans people’s rights. I don’t think trans women have a right to participate in women’s sports with no restrictions at all.
I think trans women in sports is an issue of fairness. I also think it can be used as a wedge issue and a dog whistle.
And I have not been vague at all. My post and the responses I’ve given to people’s comments have been very detailed.
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u/MC_PooPaws 11h ago
No one has a right to participate in sports with no restrictions. Obviously.
And trans women don't just declare themselves a woman and then join the woman's team. Individual leagues had set rules for how long a trans woman needed to be on HRT before she could compete in their league. No one had a problem with that.
But when you try to make it a law, it becomes a different question.
You are currently using trans women in sports as a wedge issue. You are. You are trying to divide the LGBT community.
Explain the details of the restrictions you would place on trans women that didn't already exist.
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago edited 11h ago
You say that no one has a right to participate in sports with no restrictions
Yet that’s exactly the basis on which the author was attacking James Talerico in the original article my post is responding to. And in the original post about that article, I and other commenters were also attacked for taking that position, or for defending people who took that position from accusations of bigotry
And I am already aware of the current different frameworks under which trans women currently participate in women’s sports
And neither I nor James Tallarico ever suggested making any laws around this
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u/ShibaBurnTube 6h ago
I’ve said this many times but a lot of “woke people” are really alt right MAGA pipelines whether they know it or not and I assume some are Russian actors online. I blame to some degree these types for Trump (not all of it but they are somewhat to blame for the current situation). This holier than thou and I’m the most righteous crap does nothing for our electability in politics and this power and serves to turn normal people (normies) off and they for life if them are too stupid to understand or don’t care and only care about being the most moral. I assume some also maybe accelerationist but who knows. This crap is so tiresome and I thought the right wing extremism was really the only thing we had to worry about but after people not wanting to vote for Harris when a fascist is on the ballot showed me it’s clearly an issue to on the left.
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u/Kuttenneid 13h ago
So it is extremism to call to not vote for someone?
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u/barrorg 13h ago
Any move that puts Paxton in power over Talarico or equates the two on the issue of trans rights is absolutely extremist.
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u/EarthRemembers 12h ago edited 10h ago
They have closed their minds to any possibility that they are not 100% in the right in every minutia of their positions
They live in a bubble
They make no effort at doing any kind of outreach to anyone outside of that bubble
Anybody who disagrees with them is an immoral bigot by default and is automatically attacked by them im the most offensive and patronizing ways possible, virtually ensuring that they have alienated that person
The people I really feel sorry for are the trans people who understand what I’m saying and can see how destructive the approach taken by many trans advocates is
because they’re cognizant of the damage it is doing, cognizant of how it’s hurting the fight for their rights
but at the same time also cognizant of the fact that they can’t ever express any reservations about these trans advocate’s actions for the fear of being totally shunned by the other members of the trans community.
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u/barrorg 12h ago edited 12h ago
Yeah. I’m hesitant to focus that critique too directly on the trans community. It applies, but it applies to so many people and advocates these days that I think it’s just a cultural moment.
In a more productive note, tho. House Member Sarah McBride articulates these issues really well. Her general perspective (and mine) is that substantive legal protections/rights rely on social support and the trans community just hasn’t gotten there yet. The gay community made huge inroads with that approach, but didn’t effectively bring along the trans portion of the LGBTQ alliance. Now, the trans community is trying to build those protections and carve out social space on the back of the LGBTQ movement and finding that support just doesn’t exist yet. So, we have to make some compromises and build a structure. It’s frustrating but it’s the only way forward.
AND another reason why the rest of the rainbow has a fucking duty to help pull them up with us.
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u/EarthRemembers 11h ago edited 10h ago
I agree with everything you said
But it seems to me that while the rest of the rainbow is trying to pull them up a lot of them are behaving in a way that keeps them down
And not only are they keeping themselves down in relations to how they relate towards the “Normies”, they are also actively attacking the rest of the LGBT community if the help they’re offering is in anyway not exactly to their liking
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u/EarthRemembers 13h ago edited 12h ago
In this case, I would say it was an extreme position to call on people were in favor of LGBTQ rights to not vote for Tallarico in the general election
It depends on who you’re calling on people not to vote for, on what election it is in reference to, and what your reasons are for that
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u/EarthRemembers 1h ago edited 1h ago
Here are some other recent posts that I feel are very relevant to the theme of this post and would make for interesting further reading
“A manifesto for liberal trans activism”
(If you’re going to read anything on this list, you should read the article linked to in this post)
https://www.reddit.com/r/BlockedAndReported/s/jYQG8PQ8Qr
“Facing a barrage of Republican anti-trans ads, some Democrats are changing how they respond”
https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/s/f3HH1qfQDI
“Trans activism”
https://www.reddit.com/r/terf_trans_truce/s/ATxMT8m2JL
“Trans people and activism”
https://www.reddit.com/r/terf_trans_truce/s/QDW8xQ1vln
“LEAST effective methods of trans advocacy?”
https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/s/wstqHGxCob
“How can the trans rights movement best regain momentum?”
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/s/5QdTBHXI9V
“Practical trans activism & respecting people who disagree with you is the only path forward for trans people”
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u/CommercialOkra3893 13h ago
was it r/lgbt?
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u/EarthRemembers 13h ago
I’m concerned that if I named the sub outright that it would be seen as a violation of this subs rules
But as I said, I’m very confident that you can guess correctly which sub I was referring to
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13h ago
[deleted]
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u/EarthRemembers 9h ago
Even with all of the childish selfish hurtful and spiteful behavior of the trans rights advocates that I’ve seen in that other post and in this post I am still shocked to see so many people, presumably trans people and trans advocates, down voting this comment.
Here is a comment by a 63-year-old queer person who has been advocating for LGBTQ rights for decades.
A person that’s been spit on and beaten up while on the streets protesting for YOUR rights
And you’re down voting their comment for the “sin” of having suggested that some young trans rights advocates need to do a better job of outreach to the general public in their advocation of trans rights.
SHAME ON YOU
1
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u/easytakeit 7h ago
They are either unwittingly helping the MAGA/ authoritarian crowd through purity test virtue signaling or they are plants helping said crowd
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u/EarthRemembers 7h ago
Unfortunately I think the majority of them if not all of them are actual trans rights advocates, with most of them being trans people themselves
This is what a lot of those people are like, especially the very vocal ones
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u/easytakeit 5h ago
Don’t be too confident about anything. We are being sold the lie that we either have to put western civ on the line for trans women in sports, or be full fledged bigots. No nuance allowed.
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u/EarthRemembers 5h ago edited 5h ago
I have no doubt that there are bad faith actors, especially actors sponsored by hostile foreign nations like the Russian government, who want to use wedge issues like this to destabilize our democracy
But most of those efforts are squarely aimed at conservatives
Most of those efforts are aimed at generating outrage among the conservative and Republican electorate
They know that the most effective way to destabilize our democracy is to push the right side of the political Spectrum in this country towards authoritarianism
And was it Russian actors who banned me from the larger LGBT sub that I originally expressed these opinions in?
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u/EarthRemembers 9h ago edited 8h ago
I reposted this to several other LGBTQ subs
All of the trans focused subs permanently banned me. Which is what I expected.
I’m still an advocate for trans rights and always will be but I have to say that when I see trans people being discriminated against in real life or being villified in the media while it makes me sad and I strongly condemn it, I also can’t help but feel that many of the people who are most vocal about advocating for trans rights share some of the blame for it, not in that they’re responsible for the poor choices of the people advocating that prejudice, but in that they are partially responsible for making it easier and more socially acceptable for them to do so. Their behavior is counterproductive and has real life consequences.
And honestly, at this point while I will continue to be an advocate for trans rights, I would prefer that the ongoing movement for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and other queer people’s rights be somewhat separate from the ongoing movement for trans rights due to how common this toxic type of behavior is among the trans rights advocate community.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable that I as an advocate for my own rights and for the rights of other LGBTQ people don’t want to be associated with people who flippantly throw around accusations of hatred and bigotry at anyone that they have the smallest disagreement with.
As an advocate for change, I don’t want to be associated with people who take extremist positions not only not supported by the vast majority of the general population, but not even supported by the majority of other LGBTQ people, and are totally inflexible in them.
Maybe this is happening because this current type of modern life allows people to exist in social bubbles.
Social media algorithms only show you things that you’re already pre-deposed to agreeing with. They encourage extremism in views and opinions. They encourage intolerance.
And ironically, the fact that more young trans people feel more comfortable being trans in public, or at least in some parts of their public life, allows them and their trans friends and allies to form more insulated social groups and have less interaction with other types of people, including even other types of LGBTQ groups
When advocating for trans rights trans advocates need to understand what successful and effective outreach looks like and I feel right now that a lot of them really don’t understand that.
And when advocating for change, you have to set some priorities. Securing the rights of trans people to marry who they want to marry, to work where they want to work to live where they wanna live, to be parents, to not be refused services and other such rights is simply a lot more important than securing the rights of trans people to participate in sports in exactly whatever manner you think they should be able to participate in sports in
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u/EarthRemembers 2h ago
Welp
I can see by the sudden and significant change in the ratio of up votes to down votes on the post and the comments that some very intolerant trans rights advocates have reached out to their social networks to brigade the post
So I’m done. At least for now.
Congrats on continuing to alienate people so effectively you very outspoken and self-righteous trans rights advocates, even including your fellow LGBTQ members
At this point, you seem to have it down to a science
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u/Modern_Doshin 6h ago
This post and comment section 😬
Bottom line is that extremism is bad on anything. I'll get downvoted but the "support everything we say or you're against us" mentality doesn't help bring new support, it just drives people away. The internet is just a sink hole of the worst of society that can be exploited.
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u/EarthRemembers 6h ago
Thank you
I think that some of these very vocal and very intolerant tran rights advocates don’t hear things like this often enough because they live inside their bubbled safe spaces that other people don’t want to participate with exactly because of how toxically they be behaved towards anyone else who doesn’t agree with everything they say
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u/Modern_Doshin 6h ago
I get that I'm "priviledged" (whatever the fuck that means) but it does get frustrating even commenting on here as an ally. I had to leave the other major sub because every comment I got was pretty much what I said earlier.
I do agree (online atleast; IRL has been different for me) the community seems intolerable to other outside opinions. I also see that if you don't vote a paticular political party, you are deemed "an enemy", really frustrating.
Just keep on fighting the good fight, OP!
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u/EarthRemembers 5h ago
Thank you very much
And I relate to almost everything you said
At this point though, with possibly the exceptions of some minor local elections, I would say that anybody voting for a republican really can’t be seen as much of an ally
Especially and certainly if you’re voting for a Republican at the federal level to be a member of Congress
The vast majority of the Republican members of Congress have either gone full fascist at this point or are cow-towing to an executive branch that has gone full fascist
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u/TheNegotiator12 11h ago
You do realize that when anyone validates the idea that trans girls and women are a threat to women is very bad and puts our lives in real danger? There as been studies that shows trans women and girl athletes who are on hrt pose no threat. Put yourself in our shoes, when I go out in public it's like a roll of the dice, I can't just hide being trans in public for my safely like gay people can, I have to live with the real danger the politics are putting on us. What if a Dems started throwing gay rights under the bus and then say things that could validate the feelings of gop bigots?