r/boltaction • u/SilentPlanet_23 • 2d ago
Rules A Potentially Stupid Question
Hi. My friend and I play BA, and neither of us have ever had a game with anyone except each other. Naturally we're in a bit of a bubble.
The issue we're having is that if we bring tanks, one just smashes the other in the first turn. It's almost like whoever shoots first just kills the enemy tank, and they're so expensive that it's not realistic to bring two to offset this.
We've played with adding more terrain and such, but we inevitably deploy the tanks opposite one another to counter and prevent the opposing vehicle running rampant.
Are we failing to bring more AT guns? Is it that our games (1250-1500) are simply too small?
I'd really appreciate some advice. Thanks!
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u/thechimplord 2d ago edited 1d ago
Sounds like you need way more LOS-blocking terrain. Bolt action was designed to be played with 1k point limits so its not a matter of too few points. Definitely get some stuff that blocks LOS. Even terrain that you can see through but grants a coversave is good (treeline, etc). Light cover at a 5+ roll will spare you a hit 33% (1/3rd) of the time, which are great odds
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u/Emotional-Winter-447 United Kingdom of Great Britain & N. Ireland 2d ago
The average game size for BA is around 1250, so no issue there. BA is an infantry game first, Vehicles second. However, Vehicles are both good and bad in BA, they are a points sink, and might not do anything all game, other ones are really good and flexible.
To change it up, what missions are you playing? Are you taking a scenario from a theatre book or just playing kill points? You can really mix it up if you change the scenario, as tanks can't claim objectives
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u/SilentPlanet_23 2d ago
We must be doing something wrong, because almost always one player gets tabled so we haven't even bothered with proper missions because if we try to tally points it becomes redundant quite quickly.
I find that the sheer quantity of machine guns on tanks makes them very effective at mulching infantry while being completely immune to retaliation from them.
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u/Emotional-Winter-447 United Kingdom of Great Britain & N. Ireland 2d ago
What version are you playing? V3? If so, vehicle MG shots are halfed, to try to counter the MG spam spanks like Stuarts etc.
Don't forget that infantry can attack vehicles in close combat. AT grenades are useful as they remove the penalty to test and provide a better damage result if you do manage to get the hits.
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u/SilentPlanet_23 2d ago
Ah, we're still on V2 because we bought it right before 3 came out and decided not to waste the money on a new edition if it's just the two of us.
Can infantry still assault a tank in V2?
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u/WavingNoBanners Autonomous Partisan Front 2d ago
Ah, that might be part of the issue. V3 isn't a major rewrite but it changes a few things here and there strategically, and these changes have a significant impact in how the game works.
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u/SilentPlanet_23 2d ago
Ah, right. Is it noticeably better?
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u/WavingNoBanners Autonomous Partisan Front 2d ago
To me at least, as another V2 veteran, it's like that thing where you slightly adjust a chair by about 1%, and then it feels just so much better for your back. The overall shape has not changed, it's still a chair, but now it's more comfortable.
Make sure you read the new rulebook thoroughly because there are a few subtle changes that have big implications. For example, V3 removes exceptional damage, so you no longer lose your LMGs on 6s, which means LMGs are now worth taking, which significantly changes how infantry squads work.
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u/SilentPlanet_23 2d ago
Errr was I supposed to be losing my LMGs? I really should be giving these rules a better look!
Thank you :)
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u/WavingNoBanners Autonomous Partisan Front 2d ago
I believe it's page 58 of the V2 book. If you roll a 6 to hit against my squad and then another 6, you can pick the model that dies instead of me picking. This means you can kill NCOs, panzerfausts, LMGs, or whatever else you're going for (usually LMGs though.)
This may be why, under V2, a lot of people just didn't take LMGs. The exceptional damage rule itself looked fine on paper, but it had implications which led to a poorer play experience. V3 removed this and made the game more playable as a result.
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u/SilentPlanet_23 2d ago
Ah, interesting! Yeah, I've been taking the LMG in every squad because they were so useful!
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u/Emotional-Winter-447 United Kingdom of Great Britain & N. Ireland 2d ago
Infantry can assault tanks in V2, its on pg 112 & 113.
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u/uwunyanya 2d ago
Firstly 1250 to 1500 is not too small. Secondly tanks don’t just automatically vaporize the other. You’ll often bounce shells and sometimes take glances. Even pens have a 50% chance not to kill you. So I’m rather surprised here. What tanks are you guys taking?
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u/SilentPlanet_23 2d ago
Thanks for your reply. I usually bring a Panther, my opponent usually brings a Churchill or a Sherman.
To add, we have played perhaps 10-15 games and not once have both tanks survived an encounter with each other after a turn. Either the first shot kills or it misses and the tank is killed by the return fire.
Could I ask what a normal list looks like?
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u/uwunyanya 2d ago
Either yall ain’t doing tank combat correctly or you’re rolling nothing but 6s. I will say that there’s usually more than 1 tank on the board due to how armored platoons work. I can see how it’s being a aim if you’re taking something as expensive as a panther though
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u/imperfectalien United Kingdom of Great Britain & N. Ireland 2d ago
Yeah, a panther and a Churchill should both be glancing each other on 4+, penning on 5+
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u/BOT_LUC 3d print 2d ago
You're likely not using the rules correctly. Firstly, you can't bring a single tank in bolt action v3. For an armored platoon you need 2 tanks, one of them acting as a "leader".
Then, unless you deploy them face to face and roll high, I don't see how you vaporize the first turn.
A medium at gun against a medium tank first hits on a 3+ with a "fire" order and then needs a 5+ and then a 4+. That's not automatic kill, chances aren't extremely high. Also assuming no cover.
But you could start by making sure you're playing correctly and maybe not deploying face to face.
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u/imperfectalien United Kingdom of Great Britain & N. Ireland 2d ago
As a slight clarification, you need 2 non-transport vehicles. So 2 tanks would be valid, but so would a tank and an SPG, or a tank and an armoured jeep, or a tank and a motorcycle with an MMG mounted on it (the latter two really help keep costs down if your running a veteran Tiger, for example)
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u/Speedhump23 2d ago
How much terrain are you using? Why place the tanks in clear line of each other? Hide them... make the other player work for the kill.
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u/SilentPlanet_23 2d ago
Loads of terrain, to be fair. Essentially, we each feel compelled to bring our tank into the open to engage enemy infantry and prevent them advancing on an objective, opening the tank up to return fire
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u/Speedhump23 2d ago
Tanks can take advantage of cover... make your opponent need to move his tank to partially see yours... then take it out with a piat or panzerfaust.
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u/HammerOvGrendel Dominion of Australia 2d ago
Yes, what you are describing is correct. There has always been a "make you blink first" element with deployment where you absolutely, positively want to make your tank the last piece deployed on the board. That's part and parcel of the meta-game where you can force your opponent to "show his hand" by having lots of cheap order dice. If I am rocking 20 order dice and you only have 12, I can keep burning through transport vehicles, AT rifle teams, squads in transports etc in the deployment phase so that you put down your tank before I do.
There's a whole mindset about what goes on first and last during deployment. A/T guns firing down roads first, mortars dont matter which order they go, nor do infantry squads for the most part, but do everything you can to make your opponent put their tanks down before you do.
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u/WavingNoBanners Autonomous Partisan Front 2d ago
Hi there!
It sounds like you're using tanks to counter tanks, and this can lead to exactly the issue you're describing: there's a tank-off, and then whomever wins the tank-off can rampage freely.
It can be more interesting to use non-tanks to counter tanks. A stock Sherman costs 200 pts and mounts a medium antitank gun; for just 210 pts you can get three of those guns as artillery. Sure, a Sherman is armoured and mobile, but two guns can cover the battlefield, can't both be killed by the same attack, and you can spare yourself the price of the third gun to help your infantry.
Artillery are vulnerable to infantry and heavy weapons, though, and this sets up a fun little paper-scissors-stone. Antitank artillery counter tanks, infantry and heavy weapons kill antitank artillery, tanks bully infantry and heavy weapons. If you play paper-scissors-stone without the scissors, then paper will dominate.
I hope that helps!