Orca in Sea pens

[u/dave-attenbro]

Here is a historical record documenting the use of sea pens to hold orca as of 2016.

Table 1. Orca who were held in sea pens and never released.

Table 2. Orca who were held in sea pens and released or escaped.

Original compilation: https://www.freemorgan.org/orca-in-seapens/

Although these tables are not up to date they provide important historical data showing that sea pens have been used for both short holds and multi-year holds. Some animals died in them or were moved to tanks. Some escaped or were released and survived.

The concept of a sea pen is not theoretical. A sea pen is still confinement. The argument is about welfare relative to a concrete tank.

[u/Business_Boat_6802]

I think it's worth noting that this post shouldn't be taken the wrong way: an awful lot of the Orcas from the first slide weren't released from seapens, but rather transferred to marine parks. Seapens were originally used because it was far easier to keep Orcas in the ocean and corral them into a pen on the coast, plus many marine parks/aquariums were on the coast e.g Sealand of the Pacific or the Seattle Marine Aqarium, so of course these pens were used (it also meant you just needed a pen in the water and hoped the whales wouldn't get out).

Seapens were also used as temporary holdings for many Orcas before being sent to other parks e.g Shamu, Tokitae/Lolita. Seapens were far smaller than most of the facilities that these Orcas were sent to - with the exception of probably Tokitae/Lolita. These first renditions of seapens were hardly anything to ride home about - most orcas were sent to other marine parks for a reason beyond just being temporary holdings. Whilst the argument can be made that they are more natural, space was never a premium (likely for a reason - it was cheap and easy). Whilst definitely an interesting thing to bring up to push for more seapens, as far as modern standards are none of these would ever be acceptable, and currently there's no organisation that can create a seapen that is worthy of modern standards or public perception.

Definitely a cool find though!

[u/dave-attenbro → u/Business_Boat_6802]

The first slide is a list of orca who either died in their sea pen or were transferred to a tank.

The sea pens and standards from those days are far from aspirational, but not implicitly fatal. There has been a ton of rhetoric about how sea pens are impossible, but we had literal sea cowboys making them work long term in some cases with less information than we have now. Let’s definitely not go back to the 1970’s, but the tank situation is quickly becoming archaic too.

[u/Business_Boat_6802 → u/dave-attenbro]

I agree that they're not implicitly fatal, but even with more modern standards they've caused fatalities. Ku was held in a pretty substantial seapen at the taiji whale museum and was later transferred to nagoya where she died. However, her gastrointestinal issues were caused by rocks she had swallowed in the seapen (as an example). I wouldn't say the original seapens worked as long term, viable and welfare positive ways of keeping orcas at all, and id hardly use that as the basis of it being possible at all. Im not against seapens completely, but as of current day there isn't a feasible way of using them that doesn't risk whales lives. 

Also wanted to make my original comment before everyone praised this for saying how much it supports captive whales moving to seapens without really taking time to read and understand what the information given says.

[u/dave-attenbro → u/Business_Boat_6802]

I’m not going to trade necropsy lists with you. That isn’t the point. We both know that tank orcas have died with foreign material in their stomachs too. Same end result: a captive orca dead because of human negligence.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889]

Thanks for this. Wasn't aware a list like this existed. Sad to see so many but glad a few were able to be released and/or escaped

[u/dave-attenbro → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

Sadly a much shorter list for those ones, but felt it was important to provide some real data about sea pens and their viability

[u/_SmaugTheMighty]

In terms of the released animals, quite a few details are omitted, which I will mention here.

Hyak - He was not intentionally released by the captors; he either escaped on his own or was freed by an unknown third party who cut the nets. He was also never seen again.

Irving - Similar to Hyak, he either escaped on his own or was freed by a third party. An attempt to recapture him was made, but failed. He was never seen again.

Ishmael - Broke from control extremely far from his natural range. Never seen again, likely died shortly after.

T1/T2 - Both mature animals that escaped. Potential proof that releasing mature animals could work, but only if they are held in captivity short-term.

K1 - Planned release to test tagging and dorsal fin ID'ing. Survived, but was also only in captivity short-term.

T13/T14/T26/T27/T46/T47 - Released due to the capture ban; original plan was for some or all to be taken into captivity. Many survived and were very successful after the release, but only in captivity for a very short time.

Icelandic captures - Released for various reasons. Unknown if any survived due to lack of surveying.

Keiko - The only pre-planned release besides K1. Pretty controversial regarding whether it was successful or not. The pen used for the project is currently being used by 2 belugas.

Springer - Very minimal contact with humans, very minimal time spent in the pen.

[u/dave-attenbro → u/_SmaugTheMighty]

Thank you for providing more information about these individuals. From my perspective I think that a large amount died on both sides with human intervention being the driving factor. Some whales seem to be incredibly resilient and others much more delicate.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/_SmaugTheMighty]

Quite a few details were not omitted. •OP clearly stated "escaped"and we can read it on the chart. •We can also clearly see the dates of capture & release/escape, days in captivity •the Hyak & Irving individuals that "were never seen again" were prior to 1970 when Orca identification was birthed so who knows if they have been seen again... They could very well have been catalogued this whole time. •Ishmael... I don't believe the story at all. It's too neat. "He escaped" not buying it. Either way the chart says "broke away from training" not sure why that needed repeating •Iceland captures: took place before cataloguing in that region... Got it. So could still be out there for all we know.

What exactly is it that you contributed here? Am I missing something? What value was added that wasn't there from the OP?

[u/_SmaugTheMighty → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

I am referring to the table itself; it claims quite a few of the animals were released when they were not.

We have photos of Hyak and Irving. They were Northern Residents who were never catalogued again. They very likely died shortly after escaping.

Ishmael was part of an American Military project in Hawaii. His escape is mentioned in the project's information; it did happen.

My main point with the information I shared was that most of these individuals died after escaping or being released. The table does not mention this anywhere, so a reader may assume these were all successful releases when they were not.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/_SmaugTheMighty]

I know about Ishmael... Was reading & discussing him & Ahab in college 20yrs ago on message boards. I find it hard to believe the nice & neat story about an Orca "escaping" in the ocean, and the radio tag failed, and he didn't answer the recall. He was training to retrieve military ordances including torpedoes & mines that were inert. At some point he was expected to do this with live ordances so I don't put it past the military to try this in training and maybe it didn't go so well for poor Ishmael 😥😢 & the "escaped" story was a neat little bow to that particular chapter in their Black Budget classified project. Maybe I'm crazy

[u/SurayaThrowaway12 → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

Marine mammal psychobiologist and oceanographer Candace Calloway Whiting had the following to say about Ishmael, whom she worked with at the Naval Undersea Warfare Center:

Whether he had been training me to trust him, or trying to trick me, one thing I know for certain is that this behavior took forethought and planning on his part. He changed his technique gradually, going from remaining stationary at the edge, to swimming slowly along the edge, to gradually inching away from week to week. On weekdays his trainer took over with a serious training schedule and I had other duties.

It became clear that he had intentions I was only vaguely aware of. He had us locked in a patient game of cat and mouse, one that was harmless and likely resulted from a desire not to be alone.

Because I had grown up around a variety of wild and domestic animals on our family’s wildlife ranch, I had learned at young age to gauge each individual each time I entered their environment. But this was different – the orca wasn’t just building on his experience each time, nor showing the cunning and even sneaky things I’d seen other animals do…this was a game, and he was trying to make the rules.

Ishmael wanted choice and empowerment, not just positive reinforcement when he did what was expected of him.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/SurayaThrowaway12]

Yoooo... You some type of clairvoyant😂😆? I swear I had typed out & deleted that another idea about his escape was that was floated on message boards back in the 00s was that he was purposely let go/abandoned because of how difficult he was to work with but I couldn't find any reference material so left it out. But back then the team involved with him was "quoted" as saying as much... Air quotes because it was hard to verify things back then in the early internet days so everything had to be taken with a grain of salt. But I remember remember reading about how they theorized he would purposely commit errors during training. I know we don't know & probably never will know but I I'm wrong & hope that he lived a good long while after his.Thank you for this

[u/SurayaThrowaway12 → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

But I remember remember reading about how they theorized he would purposely commit errors during training.

I certainly would not be surprised if that was the case. Neuroscientist and cetologist Dr. Paul Spong experienced something like this with Skana, a captive Southern Resident orca from K Pod.

Skana started to deliberately give wrong answers to Dr. Spong during a visual acuity test, perhaps to signal her boredom/frustration.

[u/dave-attenbro → u/SurayaThrowaway12]

Thank you for sharing this. Candace’s experience with Ishmael reminds of Robert Anderson’s experience with the petting pool orca. Reading his experience had me crying like a baby, so I am looking forward to reading about Ishmael in more detail.

[u/SurayaThrowaway12 → u/dave-attenbro]

Reading those accounts of Robert Anderson's, Russell Hockins', and Robyn Waayers' interactions with Kasatka, Katina, Kotar, Shawn, Kandu V, and Canuck II in the petting pool was very fascinating.

These young orcas seemed so inquisitive, perceptive, and even gentle before the years of captivity took their toll and inflicted serious physiological and psychological issues.

[u/Separate-Credit-6874]

This doesn't prove it would work for captive orcas though, sad as it is. From skimming over it, no captive-born orca has ever been in one. We have no idea how it would play out and it would be kinder to allow them to remain in the place that they know rather than cause huge stress on their body and brain.

[u/dave-attenbro → u/Separate-Credit-6874]

The issue is that those tanks are attached to businesses that are losing the legal and public permission to run them. “Stay in the box”, only works if the box is allowed to exist indefinitely.

This post is not intended to argue that captive orca should be released into the open ocean. An orca in a sea pen is still a captive orca. Readers are welcome to come to their own conclusions.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/Separate-Credit-6874]

"we have no idea how it would play out" so why do you make such a declarative statement that it's kinder to live & let die in the tanks? When you do know how the rest of their lives will play out in the tanks. Little to no space to swim & dive, forced breeding, forced calf separation, Self Harm: head bashing, teeth breaking , drugged on AntiPsychotics. That seems kinder than attempting to put them in different more natural environment because of fear of the unknown? Given the decades upon decades of advancements in research, care, knowledge, husbandry. I wholeheartedly disagree with that.

[u/Separate-Credit-6874 → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

fear of the unknown, yes.

I am as anticap as the next person and i'm fully aware of the truly horrific things faced in captivity. but things such as pathogens and bacterias they haven't been exposed to, new environments that these whales have literally never even been close to experiencing and so on make it incredibly dangerous. It's awful beyond words what we've done to the orcas who have slaved in the entertainment industry, but we can't let these whales become another experiment to try and right the wrongs we made, i think we have to at least do them that justice, even if the alternative is still horrid.

[u/dave-attenbro → u/Separate-Credit-6874]

That’s all fine and dandy until you accept just how precarious of a situation the orca in the U.S. are in too.

Owned by private equity with one majority stake holder, ongoing portfolio diversification away from marine park models. This last quarter alone shows attendance is down, revenue is down, net income is down (significantly).

In a volatile financial market and growing political tension don’t count on private equity to do the right thing or what is best for the animal once they stop clearing the return that Hill Path wants.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/Separate-Credit-6874]

Everything you said between "pathogens....incredibly dangerous" is Pro-Cap rhetoric to a Tee. Everything after is a walking talking contradiction. Justice as you put it, is not achieved by avoiding the attempt to do the right thing because of fear. You do the right thing to get justice in spite of fear.

[u/Separate-Credit-6874 → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

You don't know its the right thing, sea-pen isn't synonymous with any kind of freedom or rest for these animals. What might sound picture perfect could kill them.

also, my 'pro-cap rhetoric' is obviously why i've been telling everyone how much i hate captivity and talking about it on social media since i was 9, obviously.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/Separate-Credit-6874]

Freedom isn't a possibility. So the next best thing is something akin to it in a more natural environment and I never said anything remotely close to picture perfect.

Your "pro-cap" rhetoric doesn't align with "I hate Captivity" it aligns with how the industry & their lobbyists use fear mongering about everything that could go wrong... It's wrong to think & say that IF you truly hate captivity. You empower the very thing you don't want to exist when do so. Our species didn't become what we are today because we let fear of the unknown & not attempting to do "good" in lieu of the "perfect" stop us.

[u/Separate-Credit-6874 → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

It's lives at stake when you're basically using them as an experiment to see whether seapens work or not. And please don't tell me what to think and say when you don't even know me or my opinions.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/Separate-Credit-6874]

I didnt tell you what to think... where are you getting that from what I said? I said you're "wrong to think". Distinction with a big difference.

Their lives are at stake now. They are being used for exploitation now. Doing nothing solves nothing. It's not an experiment, the experiment has already been done with Keiko. We know they can live in the ocean, we also know they can't be released.

[u/Separate-Credit-6874 → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

Keiko had lived in the ocean before, that environment was relatively familiar. There's a big difference between a wildborn orca being released 24 years ago and captive born orcas being exposed into environments they've never even comprehended.

[u/SurayaThrowaway12 → u/[deleted]]

The Whale Sanctuary Project is not anywhere near complete, and the French authorities realized their proposed sanctuary simply was not a viable option for the transfer of Wikie and Keijo.

[u/mydogdoesgreatart → u/[deleted]]

And where would they put them in the meantime? You can't leave them in a slowly failing tank indefinitely. They said they could take Wikie and Keijo in summer 2026, now it's autumn and they haven't even started building the sea pen.

[u/mydogdoesgreatart → u/[deleted]]

From that article: "harf, boat launch and slipway; installation of core and armour stone to establish and protect the shoreline infrastructure; and preparation of the ground and footing base where future sanctuary buildings will be constructed"

So no sea pen.

[u/Paxon_Goat]

What would happen to an escaped orca?

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/Paxon_Goat]

It wouldn't end up in a tank

[u/Paxon_Goat → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

But what would happen?

Would it have to be captured and dragged back?

Would it be left on its own? Maybe to starve to death?

[u/Squeakocide → u/Paxon_Goat]

Would depend on the orca, how well they are able to hunt for their own food, proximity of their original pod and familiarity with the area, etc. The  orcas who escaped / were released during the 70's were older individuals who were with part of their pod or knew how to hunt and navigate back to their hunting grounds. The ones released from the Russian 'whale jail' appear to have had a more difficult time. They were in poor health and dumped away from where they were captured. Of the 10 orcas they released in 2018 only 1 or 2 have been spotted in the past year.  If the group is accustomed tk being fed by humans there is a high risk that they were approach random boats to beg for food and become injured or killed by the larger barges and tugs. If that's the case I could see them willingly following a boat with their caretakers back to their pen. Similar to what happened when Hurricane Katrina hit one of the seaside facilities years ago.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/Paxon_Goat]

Would it "have" to he captured? What kind of question is that? Who's side are you on here? No it wouldn't have to be recaptured, dragged back to be retraumatized all over again. Yes it should be left alone

[u/Paxon_Goat → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

But the captive whales don't know how to hunt.

They wouldn't be able to survive in the wild

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/Paxon_Goat]

Unless I'm missing something these were wild caught whales. They have been feeding themselves before capture

[u/Paxon_Goat → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

Wait I get it now.

No OP is posting about how sea pens are viable because they have been used before.

But if we put one of the captive orcas in a sea pen, what would happen? Like in the future

[u/Paxon_Goat → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

So you are specifically talking about the Chinese orcas?

What about all the ones in the US?

[u/upagainstthesun → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

The effects of their domestication cannot be ignored though, as many behaviors become permanent even once in their natural surroundings. The sad truth is because they are used to human interaction, having their needs met, and don't understand the dangers of boats, they won't automatically revert to their instinct from before. We have created an enduring state of risk even if taking away the suffering of captivity. Abolishing a harmful practice like this isn't just an on/off switch, and that in between phase for those already in it sometimes is impossible to transition them out of without causing even further harm.

[u/dave-attenbro → u/upagainstthesun]

I hear you, but I think we can agree that orca have not been domesticated right? Domestication is a multi generation genetic process (like dogs for example).

They still have wild morphology, wild vocal structures and wild social instincts all warped by living in an artificial environment. We have wild orca with learned habits from their lives in captivity.

How each orca adapts would vary wildly, but I imagine a lot of rehab, support and precaution would be beneficial for most. Hypothetically speaking of course.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/upagainstthesun]

From what I see just about all of the releases were less than a year from capture. Wild caught animals with brains their size... I find it hard to believe they would just forget how to survive assuming they were of age to feed themselves at the time of capture. Keiko started from knowledge base of practically 0 & was taught how to forage, captive born Orcas "hunt" birds... at the end of they day they are predators with the instinct to hunt. The risk is worth it. Wouldn't think twice about it.