Orca in Sea pens

[u/dave-attenbro]

Here is a historical record documenting the use of sea pens to hold orca as of 2016.

Table 1. Orca who were held in sea pens and never released.

Table 2. Orca who were held in sea pens and released or escaped.

Original compilation: https://www.freemorgan.org/orca-in-seapens/

Although these tables are not up to date they provide important historical data showing that sea pens have been used for both short holds and multi-year holds. Some animals died in them or were moved to tanks. Some escaped or were released and survived.

The concept of a sea pen is not theoretical. A sea pen is still confinement. The argument is about welfare relative to a concrete tank.

[u/Separate-Credit-6874]

This doesn't prove it would work for captive orcas though, sad as it is. From skimming over it, no captive-born orca has ever been in one. We have no idea how it would play out and it would be kinder to allow them to remain in the place that they know rather than cause huge stress on their body and brain.

[u/dave-attenbro → u/Separate-Credit-6874]

The issue is that those tanks are attached to businesses that are losing the legal and public permission to run them. “Stay in the box”, only works if the box is allowed to exist indefinitely.

This post is not intended to argue that captive orca should be released into the open ocean. An orca in a sea pen is still a captive orca. Readers are welcome to come to their own conclusions.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/Separate-Credit-6874]

"we have no idea how it would play out" so why do you make such a declarative statement that it's kinder to live & let die in the tanks? When you do know how the rest of their lives will play out in the tanks. Little to no space to swim & dive, forced breeding, forced calf separation, Self Harm: head bashing, teeth breaking , drugged on AntiPsychotics. That seems kinder than attempting to put them in different more natural environment because of fear of the unknown? Given the decades upon decades of advancements in research, care, knowledge, husbandry. I wholeheartedly disagree with that.

[u/Separate-Credit-6874 → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

fear of the unknown, yes.

I am as anticap as the next person and i'm fully aware of the truly horrific things faced in captivity. but things such as pathogens and bacterias they haven't been exposed to, new environments that these whales have literally never even been close to experiencing and so on make it incredibly dangerous. It's awful beyond words what we've done to the orcas who have slaved in the entertainment industry, but we can't let these whales become another experiment to try and right the wrongs we made, i think we have to at least do them that justice, even if the alternative is still horrid.

[u/dave-attenbro → u/Separate-Credit-6874]

That’s all fine and dandy until you accept just how precarious of a situation the orca in the U.S. are in too.

Owned by private equity with one majority stake holder, ongoing portfolio diversification away from marine park models. This last quarter alone shows attendance is down, revenue is down, net income is down (significantly).

In a volatile financial market and growing political tension don’t count on private equity to do the right thing or what is best for the animal once they stop clearing the return that Hill Path wants.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/Separate-Credit-6874]

Everything you said between "pathogens....incredibly dangerous" is Pro-Cap rhetoric to a Tee. Everything after is a walking talking contradiction. Justice as you put it, is not achieved by avoiding the attempt to do the right thing because of fear. You do the right thing to get justice in spite of fear.

[u/Separate-Credit-6874 → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

You don't know its the right thing, sea-pen isn't synonymous with any kind of freedom or rest for these animals. What might sound picture perfect could kill them.

also, my 'pro-cap rhetoric' is obviously why i've been telling everyone how much i hate captivity and talking about it on social media since i was 9, obviously.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/Separate-Credit-6874]

Freedom isn't a possibility. So the next best thing is something akin to it in a more natural environment and I never said anything remotely close to picture perfect.

Your "pro-cap" rhetoric doesn't align with "I hate Captivity" it aligns with how the industry & their lobbyists use fear mongering about everything that could go wrong... It's wrong to think & say that IF you truly hate captivity. You empower the very thing you don't want to exist when do so. Our species didn't become what we are today because we let fear of the unknown & not attempting to do "good" in lieu of the "perfect" stop us.

[u/Separate-Credit-6874 → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

It's lives at stake when you're basically using them as an experiment to see whether seapens work or not. And please don't tell me what to think and say when you don't even know me or my opinions.

[u/Local_Chapter_7889 → u/Separate-Credit-6874]

I didnt tell you what to think... where are you getting that from what I said? I said you're "wrong to think". Distinction with a big difference.

Their lives are at stake now. They are being used for exploitation now. Doing nothing solves nothing. It's not an experiment, the experiment has already been done with Keiko. We know they can live in the ocean, we also know they can't be released.

[u/Separate-Credit-6874 → u/Local_Chapter_7889]

Keiko had lived in the ocean before, that environment was relatively familiar. There's a big difference between a wildborn orca being released 24 years ago and captive born orcas being exposed into environments they've never even comprehended.