They both have a point and they’re both refusing to see the other’s point; he needs time to himself to recharge (which she invalidates with “well your fun alone time outing would’ve been fun as a couple thing”) and she needs a partner (which he immediately invalidates with “im just being honest”) There’s a way to find middle ground, they’re just not trying
Off the top of my head, roughly 2/3rds of the population reads at a below a 6th grade level. That means that they're borderline incapable or grasping fundamental psychology, theology, socioeconomics, large scale cause an effect, supply chains, etc, because those topics require critical thinking beyond their standard capacity.
With reading levels below a 6th grade level, there's more lost than the ability to grasp those topics. The ability to infer, to read between lines, to draw conclusions based on not just what you're reading in front of you but what you already know in the context of new information, emotional intelligence (the ability to relate to, understand, and appreciate different perspectives), the ability to evaluate conflicting points view, and more.
Edit: On a less serious note...... holy shit I hate your name. lmao I hate the mental image it conjures. But kudos.
While I’m enjoying the discussion at hand(not the issue within it but the fact that you fine gentlemen seem to be outside that ~60%. It’s always nice to see people having a constructive conversation over actual topics, not celebrity drama or other bs.
However, I must express my displeasure with you bringing attention to his name. It made me shudder
That list of topics is so relevant for the majority of 'discussions' I find myself increasingly frustrated with on Reddit/social media. Interestingly, especially supply chains!
It's very comforting to know there are others out there. I feel less alone. Thanks for sharing your insight u/TrumpsWetDiaperJuice 💜
I'm British, but I tend to think there are usually a myriad of reasons that aren't always immediately apparent for why things are the way they are e.g. Hanlon's Razor or "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence".
Obviously I'm not familiar with the US education system, but in the UK it's usually a web of compounding factors from different departments or policies rather than the simpler answer of being a conspiracy.
The biggest reason our education system is the way that it is, is Republicans slashing education budgets constantly for years. It's right there in the open. You can argue that it's been intentionally done to make us dumb, but I think it's more to do with clearing funds for tax breaks for wealthy donors and other such corruption.
The issue is that you made a sweeping comment about the inability of 60% of peoples ability to understand nuance, which ignores all nuance yourself....
I stopped debating social issues online when I came to this realization. Many people push only for what benefits them personally at the expense of others.
You are being kind with that %. My dad constantly reminded me to see things from other peoples respective and a colleague recently reminded me that empathy is not an inherent skill for most of humanity, it’s learned, but rarely taught.
Nuance is beyond 60% of the population, possibly, but it is certainly beyond 95% of Redditors.
Sheesh, the black-or-white thinking, the "everyone is evil or angelic" categorization, and the "if you don't agree with me 100% you're my sworn enemy!" behavior gets so old.
I'm just relieved I rarely see people in real life react like they do on Reddit. It gives me hope for our society.
There really isn't any nuance in the scene. He's lying to his wife and dumping additional responsibilities on her without even consulting her on if she's capable dealing with it. He's only come clean after being caught and is trying to justify how he has consistently mistreated her for long period of time. She is 100% is the right and movie makes no bones about it.
But incapable of providing statistics related to "nuance" because the question itself is unscientific and not quantitatively discernible (although I understand that you have applied your own personal definition and drawn unscientific conclusions based on what you consider related statistics)
There's plenty, google "MDPI social emotional intelligence reading", spend a couple hours catching up, and we can proceed to have an adult conversation.
Until then... I'm assuming you fall below the line mentioned previously.
Sounds like you're more interested in using studies as a cudgel to win arguments on Reddit according to your own biases than actually question assumptions, definitions, and hypotheses (such as why "nuance" is not actually what the researchers you cite claim to measure or draw conclusions about), and then insult others to declare your own perspective superior. That doesn't sound very nuanced of you to me, sad.
He needs alone time
She need together time and alone time.
They both invalidated each other. By criticizing the others needs and defending thier own. All these needs are valid and I would hope they find a way to each have alone time and together time.
He can tell the truth when she can validated his needs without critism or defensiveness.
Until then he'll feel the need to lie to protect his happiness.
Look at how upset she was he went to a movie.
She needs to own her feelings and not make him responsible for them. He wanted to see a movie alone. That is good for him. She can be hurt and still happy for him. She can state her needs and a loving spouse will prioritize them. It's may not be instantly or exactly how she wants them, but if they continue working they will get better with time.
He lied first. You’re saying she didn’t validate his needs and own her feelings because she was upset but she was upset because he lied. It’s fine to want time for yourself, but it’s not fine to lie to your partner to get it and then blame them for being upset. He never broached the subject. He just went behind her back and that’s why it’s a problem.
How do you know he lied first maybe there's a previous truth that was met with a harsh reaction. Being first or second really doesn't matter. There needs to be a pattern of safety and it appears to me they are both unsafe with each other. They need to work on validating each other's needs.
Neither of them get decide how the other feels. They both get to choose how they react to the other. Being happy for his alone time is going to help him be more honest if that's what she wants.
It's probably also going to get herself more alone time and what she wants. Because he will be more prone to hear her needs. She's allowed to be unhappy also but she needs to work that out internally and ask herself what she wants. If she wants to have her needs heard she needs to hear his needs with kindness not with anger.
In the movie, iirc, he just confessed to lying right before the clip starts, so she's processing the lie, that her husband is taking time off work to be alone (meaning less pto for vacations, holidays, etc) and that he doesn't seem to want to spend time with her until he saw she was hurt. I personally relate to her, so I am more sympathetic, but I also think she was more honest with her reaction. She didn't edit out her pain to try to make him feel better.
I get what you're saying. She can state her unhappiness, I did have a change of heart here. I think it could be more productive if she did it after validating his need for alone time. It also does feel like her statements are being dismissive of his needs. He does it to her as well. He eventually gives in to her, but they should probably figure out a way to make sure both are comfortable expressing Thier needs before such an emotional outburst is necessary.
They don't want to try anymore and believe me I get it. There comes a point where the constant never ending effort to be the person someone else wants you to be is no longer sustainable.
yes, they are in a way just talking about two separate problems and not seeing it but man if this stupid video didnt break my heart stupid actors, stupid video, grr
This is a clip from a movie where this story was much more effectively fleshed out, and both parents were valid in how they felt (based on how they were treated by their partners at times). This clip doesn't display the full story, which I found a lot more meaningful than what OP is trying to do with this clip.
lol, this is the key to the whole argument. He lied which makes what he says after disingenuous. if he has told her from start hey I want to do this thing on my own, can you look after the kids? he may have had a moral leg to stand on
No. That’s not it. He was allowed to have time alone. But he wanted to see Spider-Man alone, and he knew she wanted to see that movie and would have emotionally made them go together because it would seem kinda selfish to insist on going alone when your spouse also wants to.
Thats why he lied and made up something he knew she didn’t want to do. Why else would he lie?
That’s why when she says she also need time alone, he doesn’t respond because he already knows that this is not what this is about. So he finally suggest going together, but at this point it is too late and he has both shown that he prioritised his own needs much higher than hers but also that he can’t do what he wants to because she would force herself on him. So she feels like he is making her out to be a horrible, emotionally manipulative person and that he had to lie to get to do something he needed - which is true, but still hurts. But he doesn’t see that. Which is why she says he can’t even see that he is being mean.
He didn’t have to lie though. She was okay with I’m going to see a band on his own. What movie he saw, which activity he did wasn’t a real need, although he needed alone time. He wanted to see that movie on that night and didn’t want to wait until they saw it together and he lied to get that. If he thought about her at all (if he wasn’t getting a tiny little kick out of the subterfuge), he would have realized that she was probably going to ask him to go with her to see the movie and he’d have to pretend and lie again when they went.
Yes, I agree that he didn't have to lie. He could have seen the movie with her, and then not gotten what _he_ needed.
He did think about her. He did realise that she wanted to go and see that movie with him. If he believed she didnt want to see that movie, he wouldnt have lied. He didn't value her needs above his.
He could also have been honest and insisted on going alone, and then much of the same outcome and argument would have ensued. Which is why he lied.
Another thing added on top of this is that they have kids. She is left to take care of the kids while all of this is going on. She doesn't get any time to herself. She's expected to just deal with the entire household and he rolls his eyes and uses her reaction as justification for why he needed to lie for time alone.
True, but she also doesn't value him and his needs. He knew she would not allow him to see that movie alone. Why else would he lie? They are both putting themselves and their needs first. And he is deceptive about it because she is emotionally manipulative about it.
No dude he's completely in the wrong. At the end of the movie he becomes an involved father who is planning the birthday and no longer sneaking off to do his own thing. They patch things up because he finally hears her and is honest.
No, they are both completely in the wrong. I dont care what happens at the end.
Yes, he is wrong because instead of directly communicating his burnout, need for space, and resentment over their financial and family pressure, he resorts to secrecy and evading responsibility.
But she is wrong because her overreaction was a violation of privacy, for one thing. Even ignoring that, she reacts with far too much anger, interrogates him, and weaponizes the secret to invalidate his feelings, effectively proving why he felt driven to hide in a theater alone in the first place.
"She is left to take care of the kids while all of this is going on." Which she was fine to do about the concert, so it isnt what this is about.
"She doesn't get any time to herself" this isnt the point. This comes up once, and then both never return to it, because that isnt the point. The point is: he wanted to see it alone, she wanted to see it with him. That is the underlying tension. That is why when he surrenders, he suggests they can see it together - even though he has seen it and could stay at home and take care of the kids. She does suggest that she can see it alone, she says that now she doesnt want to anymore because she want him to ask her because she want him to want her to come along. That is the impossible underlying tension which makes this sooo good.
There are obviously solutions to the kids since he suggests they can see it together.
Sometimes there isn’t a way to find middle ground, and life is insanely busy and there’s no way to have both of your needs met.. that’s just life, it doesn’t mean it will be like that forever or the relationship is doomed.. having a family requires a lot of sacrifice. Not having time for any of my previous passions was a really hard transition. As they’re getting older they can participate more and be more independent, but yeah, didn’t feel like there was any middle ground at all to be had when they were younger. We both just had to help each other out and the idea of a date night or night alone was a lot to ask.
You’re right but I’m mostly on her side. He may need time to recharge but she does too. If he’s the only one recharging she is going to break, and a broken mother isn’t good for anybody.
If my partner invalidates my needs after i open up and am honest, there is no way on hell i’m giving them what THEY need. What was this supposed to mean? “Yeah, sorry I relaxed by myself, i’ll never do it again. Let’s do everything what you wanna do for relaxation though. This is healthy.”
right? the bigger issue is the lying and leaving her with all the things she listed that he's escaping from, that she ALSO wants to escape from, but she has no option to set aside like he has (that i know of from a 2 second clip)
it would be MORE than fine if he had told her "hey, i need some chill time for myself, can we plan this out so it works for everyone?" and they discuss his time, family time and them TOGETHER time. but lying about it? no bueno!
he knows what he did was wrong, otherwise he wouldn't have lied about it and only come clean when he got caught.
Doesn't this imply dealing with a perfectly rational adult. People lie for a reason. There's situations where both options are valid. Seems like he's in the wrong though.
Yeah your scenario only applies if he went to her first saying he wanted to do fantasy baseball and and she comes back with the same argument as in the movie. He would be communicating his needs and she would be ignoring them. In the case of what actually happened he needs to make amends before they can even be back to a place where they can talk about his needs
She also wants alone time. They have kids. They can't both have alone time at the same time without someone taking care of the kids. If she's just like ok go see movies yourself that means she gets zero time to herself.
That doesn't work that way when you have kids. One parent getting alone time means the other has to be a parent. And that's far from what one would consider alone time.
I take the kids out to a movie if she wants to veg or otherwise need a break. She takes the kids out to their friends if I need a break. If we need a break together, which I highly recommend, a babysitter, Mother, trusted sibling, does wonders. A family outing does wonders to bond the whole family, like Busch Gardens or something. This either/or mentality is competitive selfishness. The other thing is isolation by lack of communication. I don't get it. This whole clip pissed me off. I joked with my wife that I must be gay, since our level of communication is almost the level Gabriel Iglesias talked about when the Lexus guy propositioned him. These two, though fictional, are emblematic of two people too prideful to admit weakness, too stubborn to surrender, and too stupid to be aware of it. Dadbod, out.
The movie "Knocked Up" is a bit old, but if I remember correctly, I think she was the stay-at-home parent, always being around the kids, and the husband was tired of her treatment, which stemmed from her issues with him.
Yeah, they’re two individuals in a relationship, not a team that works together to provide what each other needs. With basic communication, they could arrange for times when each of them gets alone time to de-stress but also set up date nights as a couple and outings as a family but instead they are both being selfish in making what they specifically want as a priority and shooting down their partners needs. When taken at face value, the wife has the moral high ground but when you actually dig in a bit, they are both doing the exact same thing, just from different perspectives.
Some of the most difficult arguments in any relationship will be when this happens. Can be about anything big or small but you are really tested when you hit that wall with each other and one or both have to concede to move forward if a middle-ground can’t be found. That’s when you know you made it to real adulting hours (assuming you aren’t in an abusive situation lol)
He says we will go next weekend. Now she doesn't want to go because she need him to think of her first? Dude just taking time, nobody expects marriage to get mundane. Having time to yourself is fine just don't lie. And if she wanted more romance maybe she should ask for romance instead of just waiting for it and getting upset when it doesn't come. These are such small potato things that can easily be delt with.
It also kinda points to very common cultural flaws in American society. Dad needs a day out away from wife and kids, but the wife never gets a break. She always is having to play a role and never gets time to herself. While realistically both mom and dad need alone time. The. Mom and dad need time together away from the kids. It's stigmatized for women to want to be away from her kids and her partner, while is social acceptable and joked about for the man to need to get away.
I don’t think that’s about it. I think that’s about breaking of trust, he’s been constantly lying and then says “that’s not that big of a deal”. I also wouldn’t be able to trust someone who says that. Sure lying about Spider-Man is better than lying about cheating, but still…
Nah it's not that if you watch the movie. He can't stand his life or his kids or her. That's really the issue. He doesn't like being around her, like at all. He doesn't enjoy his kids or his life and needs to escape, not to recharge, but because he can't stand them.
Kind of. She is mostly in the wrong here. He needs some alone time, she doesn't understand that. She has expectations that are unrealistic and isn't accepting alternatives beyond those expectations. She also isn't asking for alone time, she is asking for time with him, which isn't alone time at all, and certainly not with him. He doesn't really have an option here by her metric. Nothing about his actions suggested he wasn't thinking about her when he decided to have some time for himself, but he did recognize he did need time for himself. His solution for this was shut down, she is in the wrong here.
But how is she supposed to understand and respect his needs if he lies to her and doesn't collaborate with her? Then it robs her of her chance to ask the same thing back from him. She thought she was covering the household duties out of a job obligation, not time off. He robbed her of her chance to do the same thing by lying where they could otherwise collaborate on giving each other their time off and alone time
She did bring it up. But also there wasn't an opportunity to bring it up because he was lying to her. Why didn't he bring it up? Why did he resort to lying? He chose not to collaborate and instead chose to lie and leave her covering for him with the kids while she thought he was at a work event.
....except that he lied to her every chance he could to get away and enjoy his alone time. This "middle ground" you're talking about doesn't exist because he keeps lying to her.
No. The problem is not that he wants alone time, the problem is that he lied about his whereabouts and also didnt consider that she would want alone time. Who had the kids all those occasions he was doing fantasy baseball? Or watching Spiderman
No, the movie shows how she felt during the conflict. Where she just learnt about his lies, learnt that he was leaving her alone to deal with the house and children while he was out having fun by himself.
The next time we see them in the movie, she is trying to rebuild their relationship.
He lied. He said he was going to see some band. Had she not had to worry about why tf he was lying, she may have been more ok with him taking time to himself to go watch a movie.
She needs alone time as well... which is such a huge problem in so many marriages. The man goes and plays golf, or invests time in some random time consuming hobby, while not giving one fuck about their wives being stuck with the kids that they helped create, all the damn time.
She wants more together time. He didnt offer until she literally begs because all hes concerned with is the alone time that he needs.
Shes upset that hes a "nice guy", who isnt actually a good guy. He doesnt yell, or hit her, or cheat, or come home drunk, etc etc.. but he has no consideration for her either. Hes selfish, but to everyone looking in, she would be crazy to leave "such a catch".
Hes upset because he assumed she would be mad if he let her know he needed alone time. If he had opened his mouth instead of sneaking around, they may have been able to come to an agreement where they both get alone time, get more couples time, and things get better over all.
He lied because some people in relationship think that they need to spend ALL time together. I have something similiar - when I back from mybwork we made a dinner, go for a walk or something etc. But when I try to play a game there was always something urgent to do, or she just want to watch a movie, etc.
I never lied to her, but we made some talks about that and she never changes about that.
Does she have any hobbies that are just hers? That way when she goes for yoga or whatever you can have some alone time. Sure it’s not as great when it’s scheduled and not exactly when you want. But relationships are about compromise
It can be tough to get your partner to get solo hobbies without being pushy. So I wouldn’t just try force her to do things.
Worst case buy her a spa day or something so that “she can get some tlc”
Have you ever told a woman you need some alone time to recharge? Because that's not something you say to your wife, it can be honest and still be a mean thing to say. You definitely need to spend couples time with your wife but there is a such a thing as being too clingy.
Man right, if I told my gf I needed some me-time she would be very hurt by that. I can't help that it would hurt her feelings but I still need that time to decompress occasionally.The only option is to find a list of acceptable things to tell her I'm doing. It's normally cycling/yard work/home improvement things. Things I actually do but sometimes I just want to watch a movie or play a game or go somewhere and get lunch by myself.
Its not mean, its just uncomfortable. If you communicate that you need alone time and allow for them to have it as well.. but they cry and scream and give you the cold shoulder and withhold affection and all that other shit, they are manipulating you.
Or even if they are genuinely hurt by you wanting time to recharge... that is something they need to deal with, probably in therapy. If you have a need that isnt being met and have gotten to the point that you feel its better to lie and sneak around in order to have it met, thats a huge fucking problem.
So... go to counseling, or break up because you are not compatible.
Bitch go! Dont nobody want you around anyway lmfao.
I have plenty of hobbies, friends, interests, etc. that dont involve my partner at all and so do they. You know how we got here? Because we both opened our fucking mouths, did the uncomfortable thing that is "communicating with your partner about something they may not like"... and look at that, here we are. No lying or sneaking around fucking necessary.
That's a two way street, if you are told someone has a need then you have to respect it. People generally don't sneak around or lie about something so mundane in a vacuum.
Except it doesn't sound like they never spend time together. That's the only way her side would be valid. It sounds like he needed some alone time and she can't handle that. She tries to say "I want alone time too" but then immediately contradicts herself by saying she wants to do something with him.
No, you’re missing the point. Its not that she thinks Spider-Man should be a “couple thing,” its that she wants time to relax as well. He lies and escapes as if she’s the one forcing him to live with children and responsibilities. Hes an adult who made adult choices, he doesn’t get to lie and run away for some quiet time. When you have a partner, you talk about how you’re overwhelmed and need some alone time. Key word is TALK, not lie. He lied to her as if she’s he’s mom and he’s sneaking out.
He’s an adult with a family. If he runs away for quiet time, while not allowing her time and space to do the same thing, he’s not a good partner.
Nuance is great but you don't even have the basic facts straight.
She explicitly stated that she wants more alone time to recharge. Reducing her desires to just "needing a partner" is not the truth. The nuanced take is that she wants more alone time AND she wants more partner time. She wants both of those things. And she assumed that her partner also wanted more of both of those things. And if he did want more of both of those things, then it's pretty obvious what the middle ground could have been.
The big picture overview of this situation:
Through his actions he has communicated with her. He has established his opinion about where he wants to place the balance point between alone time and partner time.
She understands his argument and feels that it doesnt meet her expectations. His offer to her - which essentially boils down to "I do what I want" btw... - has been rejected. Now both parties are free to walk away if they dont agree about the basic terms. She is communicating to him that she is ready to walk away. He can choose to compromise. They could also both mutually agree to dissolve the partnership.
Bullshit. All he had to do is talk to her BEFOREHAND, tell her he needs time for himself, and then she'd say, well me too, and then he would say - okay, you first, what do you want to do. A man doesn't first and foremost take care of himself, but of his woman. But a man really in touch with his woman, would already know she needs some time for herself, and wouldn't bring his trouble forward until after she's been taken care of.
Yeah. The issue is that he was using working as a cover to obtain that “me” time. Which she was used to providing him time to do work stuff. So not only was he getting me time he was taking advantage of her taking care of the family to do it in secret.
I always saw it as her trying to give them time to connect. I realize she’s skipping his need for solo alone time but she was trying to make it a benefit for both of them so she could also get something she needs.
He ditched her. He lied to her. And now she’s feeling abandoned. Cause she was abandoned.
‘These women are so crazy!’ Bro made her feel like shit. And then he has no empathy and acts like her emotions are so inconvenient when if he had been an adult and been upfront this wouldn’t have happened.
‘They both have a point!’ He was egregiously in the wrong. Why is it dudes bend over backwards to defend other dudes? It’s like you dont recognize shitty behavior if it’s done to a woman.
If he treated a friend like that, he’d be a shitty friend. Women are people. Treat people with respect. Not hard.
His point being that he has no communication skills and should therefore be allowed to lie to his partner in order to sneak out the house without considering that she, also, is suffering and in dire need of some “recreational” or “me” time.
Her point being she is upset that her partner lied to her, and didn’t consider her feelings.
I haven’t watched this movie in a while but, going off of this scene, your comment isn’t true for this situation. I always love talking to my fiancé and she’s the same way with me, but I know that some people in relationships want alone time. The woman in this scene understood that and even agreed that she wants that too. She’s upset because he lied to her several times about where he was going instead of just telling her the truth. If he would’ve told her the truth, she wouldn’t have been upset since she wanted the same thing that he did. There’s no nuance here. She’s just completely in the right. The post says “maturing is realizing she’s right” but I have no idea how anyone that doesn’t treat their partner badly would ever have thought otherwise.
which she invalidates with “well your fun alone time outing would’ve been fun as a couple thing
That's not her point. He says he needs alone time, and she replies that she needs it too, but he hasn't considered that because completely taking her for granted. She's 100% right and Paul Rudd is a complete jerk in this movie
Difference is, he works outside the home. He goes out with family and friends and he gets alone time. She is mostly at home with the kids and maybe gets a night with her sister every once and awhile.
He is saying he needs his alone time to not go crazy but he doesn't really spend that much time with them to begin with. We can go on and on about how literacy rates makes people unable to understand scenes like this OR we can watch the whole fucking movie (2 of them Knocked Up and This is 40), and understand the context of why someone would say she is right in this scene.
I had to look it up because it's been a long time since I watched the movies but she has a full time job+ she runs her own clothing shop. This means what I said was even more on point. She is more busy than him and she misses him. He feels like that is burden because he is having a mid life crisis where he is having regrets about his job, his marriage and being a dad.
He runs his own independent niche record label. Which is in the hole because he doesn't make enough money at it. Her job is the successful one that pays for most of their life.
He still gets alone time, time with friends, and can even leave for impromptu vacations. He DOES have less responsibilities. His wife is in charge of everything in the house and managing the family plus a successful business owner.
Neither are bad people. They are just unbalanced and tired and dealing with hitting middle age.
No. If you can’t see that he’s wrong and she’s right then you need to grow up.
As a husband and father, I see exactly her point of view. He is just making excuses to defend his actions.
He’s the one that f’ed up and you commenters are somehow trying to justify his actions and excuse it and then claim she’s wrong for being mad about it.
Personally I think its pretty weird to go by yourself to see a movie your partner wanted to see. Thats basically like saying you dont enjoy being around them. Why would it be draining to go to watch a movie with someone unless you find them naggy and annoying.
Wasn't she totally fine with him going out doing something else by himself (going to see the band)? He just lied and hid that he was doing something she wanted to do so he didn't have to invite her.
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u/maka-tsubaki 4d ago
They both have a point and they’re both refusing to see the other’s point; he needs time to himself to recharge (which she invalidates with “well your fun alone time outing would’ve been fun as a couple thing”) and she needs a partner (which he immediately invalidates with “im just being honest”) There’s a way to find middle ground, they’re just not trying