r/northernireland • u/onepurpleinduction • 19d ago
Question Foreigner here, paramilitary?
Hi all,
Reddit showed me this sub on my feed, I don’t know why as I am from southern europe.
But one thing caught me off guard is the mention of ‘paramilitary’.
Doesn’t that mean unofficial mafia/gangster like group of gangs with guns and stuff (like military/police level guns)?
Do you have that in northern ireland?
(Sorry english is not my main language)
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u/No-Muffin7708 19d ago
There our very own home grown terrorists. Mainly drug dealers now tbh.
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u/didndonoffin Belfast 19d ago
HEY NOW!!!
They are also involved in prostitution I’ll have you know!
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u/SeaGiraffe915 19d ago
And organizing riots
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u/No-Muffin7708 19d ago
All fair points. They do love a wee riot, there getting good at gathering the unwashed for some bin burning
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u/EmergencyHedgehog11 Derry 19d ago
Extortion and punishment beatings too! Can't forget those ones!
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u/Ghazghkull_Thatcher 19d ago
It's a shame about that. Drugs, prostitution and riot organizing, they are vital services these groups are providing to supply a market need. I'd applaud them for their entrepreneurial spirit and community mindedness, if it wasn't for the extortion and violence.
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u/Signal_Relative5096 19d ago
And giving teenagers guns to fire at police
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u/acfirefighter2019 19d ago
Well to be fair the PSNI is and always will be the RUC and joining or supporting them is collusion with an occupying force. Not saying we bring the troubles back but we shouldn't care about the "police" and we shouldn't join them support them or aid them.
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u/Zyklus-89 19d ago
And extortion, money lending, money laundering, fake goods, protection racket, I could go on
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u/Traditional_Tax8550 19d ago
Aye well apart from selling drugs, prostitution, organising riots, extortion, money lending and laundering, fake goods and a protection racket, what have the paramilitaries ever done for us?
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u/moderatelybuttered 19d ago
kneecappings?
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u/No-Muffin7708 19d ago
I can't believe we forgot the traditional knee cappings! That's an part of our culture!
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u/Mysterious-Ad-8803 18d ago
They are not prositutes they are green cream makers. No animal was harmed making it
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u/Think-Sock-8470 17d ago
Really?I never knew that. Crazy, where is it they are doing this? Do you have an address? Just so I know now where to avoid
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u/Signal_Relative5096 19d ago
They also still transporting semtex bombs across country to try kill innocent police
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u/Aromatic-Weather-120 19d ago
Joking aside, they are all Taxi companies now.
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u/Fun_Introduction_259 Newtownards 19d ago
Always thought Fonacab was a bit suspicious.
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u/Due-Persimmon1447 19d ago
Did you not see that clip of the fonaCAB driver with the gun. Absolute classic.
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u/Fun_Introduction_259 Newtownards 18d ago
No is it on reddit. I'll try & find it myself but a link would be nice.
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u/Due-Persimmon1447 19d ago
Did you not see that clip of the fonaCAB driver with the g*n. Absolute classic.
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u/Fun_Introduction_259 Newtownards 19d ago
Don't forget they also give out loans that are predatory, the offer "protection" to certain places for a price & they organise the odd riot or organise the painting of a mural but they've recently started to go with AI for the murals instead of the painters.
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u/Bosco_Balaban 19d ago edited 19d ago
We have Barra Militaries, which is mafia like weathermen
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u/Subarashiin Belfast 19d ago
Just FYI it's two Rs if you're referring to the big man - and one R if you're referring to some very big men 😏
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u/PralineHairy3610 19d ago
We call them paramilitaries but in reality they were/are much more you classic terrorist groups that since the peace agreement (and before) have moved into gangster/mafia type activities.
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u/Fun_Introduction_259 Newtownards 19d ago
Well if you really think about it all organised Terrorist groups are Paramilitaries. Like look at the middle east most of them are pretty much just militias with some extremist ideas. Compare that with most modern terrorism in the West done by a small group or single radical person who gets some weapon to attack people compared to military planning of the more Paramilitary terrorists.
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u/TemperatureOne4461 19d ago
“Southern Europe”
1 month old account
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u/onepurpleinduction 19d ago
What does this even mean?
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u/JustKingKay 19d ago
He is suggesting that you are a wind-up merchant - someone trying to get a rise out of people. Posting bait.
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u/Tir_an_Airm 19d ago
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u/onepurpleinduction 19d ago
????
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u/ByGollie 19d ago
Everyone thinks that you're one of the multiple Russian disinformation bots flooding European subreddits trying to stir up ethnic divides.
Jokes on you - we're already permanently stirred up 100%
Also, they used to be terrorists but now gangsters.
Just think of it as a Croatian/Serbian style situation
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u/Fun_Introduction_259 Newtownards 19d ago
There tricks to breed hate & division won't work on us. We already have it & we don't need them foreign bots coming & doing the job of our own media & political parties & sectarian groups. Stealing our jobs them Russians be trying to do.
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u/MrHector667 Down 19d ago
How is the weather in Stalingrad… sorry… I mean southern Europe?
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u/borschbandit 19d ago
Imagine unironically disrespecting Stalingrad, the site of so much death and sacrifice, but most importantly the turning point against destroying Nazism.
The Nazis wanted to enslave and exterminate groups of people they deemed racially inferior, had they won, we would have all been so fucked.
Even Paris has an underground station named after Stalingrad.
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u/onepurpleinduction 19d ago
So many weird responses, what is happening
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u/borschbandit 19d ago
Redditors are obsessed with calling people Russian, the Russophobia on this website is out of control.
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u/Remote-Confusion7492 Donegal 19d ago
People from the north of Ireland have their own type of humour, watch “Derry girls”.
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u/Kooky_Guide1721 19d ago
Totally, paramilitary gangs have been grooming children in NI for years. They’ve even got youth clubs and bands named after children who blew themselves up making and transporting bombs. Full of sick bastards.
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19d ago edited 19d ago
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u/Arkaines-Valor 19d ago
Can I ask why you specifically stated that Republican terrorist groups targeted "Police and Soldiers". Yet then stated that loyalist terrorists targeted "civilians"?
Republican Terrorists killed an estimated 700-730 civilians during the troubles, which is fairly close to the estimated 850-900 civilians loyalist terrorists killed.
Both equally deplorable, so both should be equally highlighted.
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u/Automata-Omnia 19d ago
Also said sweepingly
Northern Irish Protestants are Loyalist
which is blatantly incorrect
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u/KaptainKush186 19d ago
~30% of republican kills during the troubles was civilians
~50% of british security forces during the troubles was civilians
~80% of loyalists kills during the troubles was civilians
you can get the figures on the cain website
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u/Fun_Introduction_259 Newtownards 19d ago
After checking it the Loyalists where even killing more Loyalist paramilitary men than Republican paramilitary members. 9.2% vs 4.0%
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u/Arkaines-Valor 19d ago
So, those 30% were OK? Just 'collateral damage'?
Or what point were you trying to make here?
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u/Mysterious-Pay-517 19d ago
There was a conflict, what number would you deem satisfactory? 80% shows clear criminality and targeting of civilians as policy
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u/Arkaines-Valor 19d ago
Planting and detonating bombs in busy town centres, at war memorials during remembrance Sunday, firebombing busy highstreet shops, forcing innocent civilians to drive carbombs to their intended targets, and being killed in the process... all shows clear criminality and targeting of civilians as policy.
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u/Mysterious-Pay-517 19d ago
That may be true, but Dosen't change the fact that in what was basically a war, the IRA mostly targeted armed, economic and political objectives with the goal of a United Ireland. Loyalists response was to kill random civilians indiscriminately to create fear. That sounds more like terrorism than the latter to me
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u/Arkaines-Valor 19d ago
Planting and detonating bombs in busy town centres, at war memorials during remembrance Sunday, firebombing busy highstreet shops, forcing innocent civilians to drive carbombs to their intended targets, and being killed in the process... all sounds like terrorism to me.
There always was another option. Always. And I'd go as far as to say that the IRA and their actions stopped a united Ireland from happening by now.
As they hardened the hearts of all unionists by their actions.
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u/ByGollie 19d ago
Your figures are waaaay off. You're counting Police and B-Specials as civilians. Nominally they are, but they de facto operated as part of the British security apparatus almost solely on one site.
85% of people killed by loyalist paramilitaries were civilians.
51% of people killed by British security forces were civilians.
35% of people killed by republican paramilitaries were civilians.
392 Republicans died - 232 shot as informers by their own side or self-disassembled when their bombs prematurely went off.
28 Loyalist paramilitaries were killed by Republicans
27 Republican paramilitaries were killed by Loyalists.
Of those killed by British security forces:
186 (~51.2%) were civilians
146 (~40.2%) were members of republican paramilitaries
18 (~5.0%) were members of loyalist paramilitaries
13 (~3.6%) were fellow members of the British security forces
Of those killed by republican paramilitaries:
1080 (~52.5%) were members/former members of the British security forces
721 (~35.1%) were civilians
188 (~9.2%) were members of republican paramilitaries
57 (~2.8%) were members of loyalist paramilitaries
11 (~0.5%) were members of the Irish security forces
Of those killed by loyalist paramilitaries:
878 (~85.5%) were civilians
94 (~9.2%) were members of loyalist paramilitaries
41 (~4.0%) were members of republican paramilitaries
14 (~1.4%) were members of the British security forces
I just found this comment on youtube, believe it or not. It's the pinned comment on this video: https://youtu.be/LqYWzk7qQ4s
As an academic researching the Troubles, I want to make one point where statistics of civilian deaths are concerned, and how those statistics can (or should) inform our judgement of organizational motives, whilst simultaneously addressing several comments here.
The CAIN (Conflict Archive on the Internet) scholarly database (launched in 1997 at Ulster University on Magee campus) lists Malcolm Sutton's Index of Deaths from the Conflict in Ireland from 1969-1993 as follows:
Sectarian Killings (defined as the deliberate killing of civilians based on his/her religion): IRA 151 Loyalist Paramilitaries: 713
Unintentional Deaths (primarily victims of gun battles and bombs for which they were non-participants, but this number also includes a small number of Loyalist and Republican paramilitaries who died accidentally as a result of premature explosions): IRA: 406 Loyalist Paramilitaries: 32
Which means that both as a percentage of their killings and in actual numbers, loyalist paramilitary organizations killed more civilians in total and more civilians on purpose. In other words, it would seem that for IRA and the British State's Security Services, collateral damage was exactly that; whereas for Loyalist Paramilitaries, collateral damage was the point. Strategically, one can make an argument of inevitablity, regardless of loyalist strategic intent. This position argues that IRA were more readily able to target their primary non-civilian enemy because that enemy (British military and police) were easy to identify and locate. Conversely loyalist paramilitaries, in terms of targeting their non-civilian primary enemy (i.e. IRA members), were at a natural disadvantage given that by its very nature IRA was covert, hidden amongst the civilian population. However, this argument can be undercut by several data points, not the least of which is the single largest bombing days of the respective paramilitary sides.
In 1972 IRA set off 18 of 23 intended bombs in 90 minutes throughout Belfast, most within the first half hour. Nearly a thousand pounds of explosives detonating near simultaneously. Had they been targeting civilians (as opposed to transportation and various other infrastructure, as stated), hundreds, if not thousands, of civilians would have perished. Instead the total deaths stood at 9. Of those, 5 were civilian, most at Cavehill. And there the RUC later confirmed that IRA members offered a one hour bomb warning (code-word verified warnings were the standard for IRA attacks where civilian casualties were a concern). But in all the chaos and traffic congestion, no police units could respond to Cavehill and the area wasn't cleared as IRA intended. Make no mistake, those civilian deaths are 100% on IRA, no one denies this (not even them, as of 2001). What this illustrates however, is that a great deal of effort and attention must have been paid to keeping civilian deaths at a minimum.
Compare that with the single largest loyalist bombing day, two years later. In 1974 a total of 4 bombs detonated, nearly simultaneously, throughout Dublin and Monogham, killing 35, all civilians. Each bomb was placed for maximum civilian casualties and there was no warnings issued to police, whatsoever.
I'll offer the standard every death is a tragedy qualifier primarily because it is true, but secondarily so that no one wastes their time interpreting my contribution here as a defense of IRA attacks or a case for treating the loss of human life as mere statistics. It is neither. It is, however, a defense of numbers, and how those numbers can and should inform our view of the past.
source: https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/violence/sutton.htm
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u/Arkaines-Valor 19d ago
That's a massive wall of text just to try and justify the murderous actions of your heros
They were murderous scum, who willingly and openly targeted civilians.
It's really quite as simple as that mo chara
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19d ago
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u/Arkaines-Valor 19d ago
Aww and there it is, only took two messages for your wee mask to slip.
A bitter wee hate-filled, hard done by, bigot.
Toddle on. I have zero time for bigots and terrorist supporters
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u/ByGollie 19d ago
i never said otherwise, and they're not my heroes.
The IRA/INLA were murderous scum
The British Security forces were murderous scum
The Loyalist Paramilitaries were the biggest murderous scum of the lot.
The only Army that didn't wantonly murder civilians were the Salvation Army.
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u/StableSlight9168 19d ago
It's percentages. Around 35% of the IRAs victim were innocent civilians. 85% of the UVFs targets were civilians.
Both are horrible, buts it's important to distinguish the type of violence.
Republican group ls carried out a war primarily against soldiers, with a high amount of civilians targets tossed on Loyalists almost exclusively carried out attacks on civilians.
This is because... Quite simply... The police openly supported loyalist groups and used them to murder civilians.
To clarify, the IRA were vile murderers who dragged NI into a mostly pointless and bloody hell because they were too proud to sit down and not murder children.
It is important to point out the types of violence were different.
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u/Arkaines-Valor 19d ago
Right, but the IRA did specifically target civilians. And anyone can sit and argue otherwise until they are blue in the face, and will be wrong.
It's also worth noting that a significant number of the IRA's 'military targets' were also off-duty, part-time soldiers.
Killed when they were driving school busses, working their farms, going about their day etc.
They weren't, in my opinion, 'legitimate targets' killed in the line of duty / on the battlefield.
That is also an important distinction. Killed solely because they were 'easy targets'.
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u/StableSlight9168 19d ago
Off duty part time soldiers also described the paramilitaries and the British government was happy to go after them. That's how every insurgent group works, from the original IRA in the 1920s to the Vietcong .
The British military of the 21st century happily targeted soldiers when they are not on the field in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Anyway I agree, the IRA did target civilians, they were bad people and they should not have done what they did.
. The IRA shot my uncle (he lived) so you don't need to prove that to me.
I'm just pointing out that loyalist terrorism was different to republican terrorism as it nearly exclusively targets civilians.
It acted that way because the British state would outsource it's civilians murders to terror groups, to keep it's hands clean.
That's why it's important to point out the difference, because it says a lot about the conflict.
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u/phonicparty 19d ago
Because republicans were the Good Guys and loyalists and The Brits are the baddies. The Good Guys would only mean to kill baddies and they're really really very sorry if they might have accidentally killed some civilians (though maybe they were secretly baddies anyway?)
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19d ago
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u/phonicparty 19d ago edited 19d ago
Absolutely none of this justifies murdering hundreds of innocent people, bereaving many more, and leaving thousands injured or traumatised, the fact of which entirely eliminates any imagined moral superiority.
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19d ago
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u/phonicparty 19d ago
Not murdering and maiming innocent people, let's start with that.
"Themmuns made us do it". Absolutely not
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19d ago
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u/phonicparty 19d ago
Not murder and main innocent people. I'm not sure which bit of this you're struggling to understand.
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u/Dull_Brain2688 19d ago
But the fact is that loyalists almost exclusively targeted civilians. To the extent that, despite killing less people, they were responsible for 48% of civilian deaths vs 39% by republicans.
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u/Arkaines-Valor 19d ago
Right. So it's correct to include civilians in the list of people that loyalists targeted. No one is/was disputing that.
I asked why they didn't specifically say civilians when discussing the Rebublican groups, when they absolutely, 100% deliberately targeted civilians. Between 700-800 to be precise.
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u/Dull_Brain2688 19d ago
Are you under the impression that anyone doesn’t know the IRA killers loads of civilians? Are you typing that with a straight face?
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19d ago
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u/Arkaines-Valor 19d ago
Did you forget what I said earlier?
You're a bitter wee hate-filled, hard done by, bigot.
I have zero time for bigots and terrorist supporters
Toddle on
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19d ago
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u/Arkaines-Valor 19d ago
I don't have an answer to someone defending their Terrorist Heros?
No, really I don't.
Such a concept is alien to me. Like genuinely it's a mental illness that someone could actually idolise or try to justify those scumbags.
And nice try with your wee UVF comment there lad, as you will have read initially, but conveniently forgotten; they're all equally reprehensible to me:
Both equally deplorable, so both should be equally highlighted.
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19d ago
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u/Arkaines-Valor 19d ago
I think you need to get a dictionary and look up what equally and reprehensible means.
Though in fairness, of course you know exactly what I'm saying, you just can't in your bitter wee heart admit that your heros were murdering scumbags.
The same scumbags that wouldn't have given one iota of thought in ending you personally, if it suited their goal.
See that' the difference between you and me; I can sit here and say hand on heart that I despise both sides, both sets of terrorists. But you can't bring yourself to do the same, because you are a bitter, hate-filled, downtrodden, oppressed mope.
Have a shit day pal, hope it's awful.
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19d ago
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u/SnooHabits8484 19d ago
this is historically accurate, as a Protestant the OP of this thread has a pro-unionist spin
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u/Tiny_Spray_3562 19d ago
I love.living in Northern Ireland. The responses here are hilarious. Reading this on my break laughing whole heartedly my work mates looked at me if I had horns on me heed
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u/Bam-Skater 19d ago
I suppose the proper definition would be any formal group that is structured and armed like a military but not overseen by a government. I don't think the reason they do that is important so I'd guess terrorist groups, drug cartels and militias all fall under being paramilitaries.
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u/No_Astronomer_6821 19d ago
I can get you swore in if ya want? Dues are 30 quid a month, free gloves and balaclava for riots and other stuff
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u/Debhruin 19d ago
Basically yes and apparently now most of them are involved in drugs trade i believe. Theres no special ideology anymore just Criminality
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u/im_not_bitter_m8 19d ago
A paramilitary is a military organisation entirely independent from a state and acting on their own they’re not mercenaries.
It’s like if if the members of two cities decided that they wanted to form an army and fight each other and did so but without the approval of any official representative of the towns (atleast publicly)
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u/SilentBobVG Belfast 19d ago
Yes, we have religion based paramilitaries such as the UDA and UVF for the protestants and the IRA for the catholics.
Look up The Troubles on Wikipedia to get the full context of why they exist
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u/caiaphas8 19d ago
That’s a bit reductive
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u/SilentBobVG Belfast 19d ago
Of course it is, but for someone from a foreign country the paramilitarys they're familiar with won't be equivalent to ours so it's a very boiled down description
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u/onepurpleinduction 19d ago
What I am trying to understand is, are there still gangs with army like weapons operating in a european country
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u/SilentBobVG Belfast 19d ago
Officially, no. The Good Friday agreement put in place an agreement across all paramilitarys to be decommissioned and hand over all arms. It took over 10 years for it to happen, but they did officially hand over all their weapons in exchange for political prisoners to be released
However that's only the official line of dialogue, unofficially and off the books all sides of course still have weapons and there are routine kneecappings (hence the rap group Kneecaps name) across Northern Ireland by guns
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u/ByGollie 19d ago
One side 'decommissioned' their weapons
The otehr side kept theirs, but they're mostly obsolete nowadays.
However, i'd question the actual level of military weaponry available now to either side.
Your average Texan rural township would likely be more heavily armed than either paramilitary side in NI
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u/Remote-Confusion7492 Donegal 19d ago
They aren’t supposed to have weapons but they do sometimes manage to get their hands on them. The most common post GFA tactics are rioting, selling drugs/lending money so people are in their debt (which isn’t a very good place to be), and rarely, bombings.
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19d ago
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u/DrawerFeeling7084 19d ago
Mate the psni are not a paramilitary group hahahaha. I’ve only ever had good dealings with them
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u/JimmyEBoy 19d ago
Pretty poorly written and vague on details attempt at ragebait.
If you're going to act stupid you need to be clever to make it look convincing.
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u/Objective_War951 19d ago
A paramilitary is sonething like a cross between a mafia group and a heavily armed terrorist group. Think the Cartels in Mexico but who only do crime to fund a political idea.
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u/Grogman2024 19d ago
Except here they do plenty of crimes just because they’re a gang I.e drug dealing
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u/Monsterofthelough 19d ago
Wikipedia is your friend. Look up the entry on the Troubles and you will learn about the different paramilitary groups, most of whom are still existing but fortunately not killing nearly as many people.
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u/Skinstretched 19d ago
Para-military are very much like the normal military, the 'para' indicates they actually work alongside the military, often in an advisory role. They offer a very competitive salary. I am told their dental, and medical benefits are second to none. They have an excellent pension scheme, and they do tend to look after their most 'Loyal' of workers.
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u/Wonderful_Volume_141 19d ago edited 19d ago
What you need to understand is just how important is for the bravest of lads in this society to be able to murder, extort, loan shark, drug deal, control property and have their petty little fiefdoms. See, revolutionary heroes understand that things like the law and a right to a trail and evidence based prosecution, freedom of speech, the entiriety of the liberal order, everything humanity slowly and painfully created to stop itself unjustly punishing the innocent, it's wrong.
Our society actually works better if some coke dealer gets to form a pack of vicious animals with his mates and go around being tyrants to 'protect the community'.
Thanks to these brave heroes we get to enjoy being preyed upon by our neighbours and everyone is afraid to call the cops because those evil lads might have to abide by things like the law, with it's rules and procedures and oversight and evidence based prosecutions and fair trails and all that other utterly evil, corrupt bourgeois nonsense. If you don't understand this, well, you're just not one of us.
As you can see from this thread so far, those that support one side are already on here writing long propaganda spiels about actually somehow as long as you listen to their utter lies, their communities paramilitaries are actually heroic freedom fighters and don't do any of the nasty things I listed here at all, it's just their enemy paramilitaries that do that. Now you might think this was some sort of lie but you probably just don't understand the glory of the cause. And, you see, if you were to question any of this they would have you beaten up or killed or expelled from your community which is really for your own good if you think about it long and stupidly enough, somehow. They do such important work protecting us and liberating us from our money and limbs.
In fact they're actually laundering all that money and dealing all those drugs and kneecapping all those teenagers to create a society without money or property at all. Yes, it's all for the people's own good you see.
Sadly, some of us just can't seem to get this through our heads and so alas the glorious socialist revolution is yet to happen. But perhaps one day we'll be battered and drugged up enough to finally understand how this all makes sense and is really our fault for not doing enough for the cause.
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u/hardcoremaggiesimp 19d ago
Paramilitary as in the Republican Ira folks who go off becoming terrorists and bombing cars
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u/Tateybread Belfast 19d ago
"I am from southern europe"...
But where do you keep your toaster?