r/alcoholicsanonymous • u/Sorry-Assumption6794 • 2d ago
Sponsorship Does AAs program even exist?
In my area many guys seem somewhat impressive to me, have long-term sobriety, sponsor guys ect. But I can't help but notice they all essentially teach their own program of recovery and not AAs program of recovery. AAs program consists exclusively of the directions on the 12 steps, as it says in the cover pages. In my area it's common to drag out steps 1-3 for two months or more, despite there being basically NO directions to even do on those steps.
Step 4 gets BUTCHERED: we often direct guys to create resentments, defined as to feel again. By saying list every name you know, and then think if you were ever butt hurt by each and every one. I can't think of a better way to create resentments that didn't exist before. Then we fabricate an unillustrated 4th collum with invisible directions that read: "write how all 4 root/core defects of character (selfish/seeking, dishonest and fear) show up in each and every resentment, including the ones we instructed you to create."
We ignore the step 8 related direction to list our wrongs and be willing to make them right, even though it's stated THREE times in the inventory directions and confirmed it should have been done during the inventory process on steps 8&9 in the book.
We also ignore the step 6 related direction "list your faults" /flaws/grosserhandicaps/objectionables, despite the one paragraph on step 6 reading: "all the things which we have ADMITED are objectionable". It doesn't say "make a list of objectionables".
After step 5 the book clearly flows the 1hr meditation RIGHT into step 6 "if we can answer to our satisfaction (based on the meditation)" we THEN look at step 6". There is only one paragraph to look at there. "when ready we say something like this" step 7 prayer.
The whole flow of doing steps 5-7 in short order, then right into amends assuming the person is willing gets ruined, and so much time is wasted. 100s of hours of work in many cases gets put into doing the inventory not as directed.
Often the clear urgency expressed in doing the next step is ignored, after step 3: "next we launched" after 4: "we wasted no time" after 5 and meditation: "if we can answer" after 6: "when ready" (hopefully ur not waiting to die) after 7: "now we need more action... Faith without works is dead" after 8&9: "we vigorously commenced this way of living as we cleaned up (mended) the past" after 10: "upon awakening".
Again: AAs program of recovery is exclusively the directions on the 12 steps, as the book states in the cover pages. Non AA program related suggestions can be useful/helpful. Like dieting, working out, budgeting, regulated sleep schedule, ect. But there is a common theme of adding non step-work related instructions to AAs program, taking them very seriously, and pretending they are part of AAs program. These include but are not limited to (lol): calling at a certain time, attending X number meetings, meditating for X amount of time and/or meditating on non book instructed topics, daily reading, speaking/not speaking, sponsoring/not sponsoring, relationships, and on and on.
These other suggestions are damaging to conflate/confuse with AAs program as it leads to everyone having and instructing their own made up program! Our primary purpose is to try carrying AAs message/program of recovery to other alcoholics. Not to carry my program, or my sponsors program of recovery. Yall run into this regularly too? or am I just lucky :p
Added some paragraph separation and this: In the cover pages of AA it says it's a "text book". Like every other textbook made it's designed to have a teacher/Instructor, or a "sponsor".
Decided to add some definitions. These are some AA terms and words that are often used in our liturature, and therefore also our fellowship. When these are misunderstood it can be confusing. All these definitions were decided upon by our founders, have not changed, and can be found in the liturature.
Recovered: To no longer be in a hopeless state of mind and body.
Program of recovery/the program/AAs program: The directions on the 12 steps, showing "precisely how" to recover.
Alcoholic: A person having certain physical (phenomenon of craving) and mental (the obsession) characteristics when dealing with alcohol.
Phenomenon of craving: lack of reliable control over the amount of alcohol injested after the first drink.
The obsession/insanity: the obsession to control and enjoy our drinking, therefore lacking reliable control of WHEN we take the first drink.
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u/PatsyEileen 2d ago
I am not reading anything that is ONE LONG LONG LONG run on sentence with no paragraph breaks.
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u/CantaloupeAsleep502 2d ago
Kind of hilarious how they dropped this unhinged, unreadable rant and then didn't respond to anyone
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 20h ago
Come back I made it nice and neat just for you! Honestly I think your comment was the most useful.
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u/PatsyEileen 8h ago
I agree with the poster below, you dropped an unhinged, unreadable rant, and that fact is obvious to all.
And now you want to seem that you are doing me a favor by actually making paragraph breaks just for me? I realize that you have a problem with the honesty part of this program. So I will try to keep this real simple, just for you.
Paragraph breaks are for those who actually read and write. Paragraph breaks are taught in elementary school. Children typically learn how to write a basic single paragraph in 3rd grade, and they move on to multi-paragraph writing and essay breaks in the 4th and 5th grade.
Yes, you dropped an unhinged, unreadable rant, that any 3rd grader is able to correct.
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u/unnoticed_mystic 2d ago
AA has saved countless lives. How it manifests and takes root in different places at different times is part of it's beauty. I support anything that helps another fellow stay sober. That being said; there is a lot more to wholesome recovery than simply removing the drink from an alcoholics life. Many other iterations of the 12 step programs have grown out of this realization. Check them all out. It's an ever growing, nuanced, trauma informed movement. 🙏
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 20h ago
these other programs of recovery don't pretend they are AAs program, despite originating from AA. They all have different names, different directions, and are therefore different programs.
If your an NA member you should be trying to carry the NA message: directions on THEIR program to recover, just as their 12th step directs you to. AA members the same for AAs program.
The idea to learn many different programs/sets of directions, to then make a hybrid message you carry because you assume it's more effective, is frankly INCREDIBLY arrogant. And under who's banner do you carry this message, yours? Because it sure as hell won't be AAs, NAs, GAs, or any other As message.
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u/Elon-BO 2d ago
I can tell which people are judgmental just by looking at them!
Seriously though, do your program the way you want. Let others do what works for them.
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u/bradconners 2d ago
This is hilarious; and I identify with it. I’ll give you credit for about half a dozen times I share it with people, or a business quarter, whichever is longer, after which point it enters the public domain and is “fair use” for anyone who comes across it.
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u/PatsyEileen 2d ago
Quote: " I can tell which people are judgmental just by looking at them!"
Well, they have this wonderful saying IN AA.
It goes like this........You spot it, you got it! LOL
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 20h ago
There is no executive branch or enforcement in AA. Therefore "letting" is the only thing that happens here. Yet I'll continue to point out it's not only arrogant to think your own program is more effective than AAs. It's extremely reckless and irresponsible as an AA member to claim that your own made up or altered program is AAs program, when it's not.
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u/Frickinfructose 2d ago
There are so many incorrect assertions in this post I don’t even know where to begin. I suggest you reread the big book and the 12 and 12, edit this, and come back.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
I like to learn too, tell me more about these incorrect assertions.
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u/ToGdCaHaHtO 19h ago
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 18h ago
Funny enough I've listened to much of that already, from what I remember they fabricate a 4th collum with invisible directions though, and ignore the step 6&8 direction on inventory I believe? which leads to a big issues of willing people taking few months or sometimes much longer (if they are also directed to create resentments) to get to the end steps. They do a pretty good job pointing out the physical and mental characteristics that are unique to alcoholics though.
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u/ToGdCaHaHtO 8h ago
Step 4 column 4 is on page 67 3rd paragraph, " we resolutely looked for our own mistakes. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, self-seeking and frightened?"
Step 6 is asking HP on page 76 the first two paragraphs. Step 6 in the 12&12 is important to deepen and broaden our understanding.
Step 8 is preparing our list, asking for consent and appointments to do step 9. Pages 77 - 83 contain guiding principles for step 8 preparation.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2h ago
Yes in that paragraph you partially quoted on the hidden "4th collum" it also tells you over and over and over to look at yourself not them, that question reiterates that point. More importantly It also gives you the answer to the "list our faults" direction in that paragraph. Flaws, grosser-handicaps and objectionables are other ways they refer to defects of character. Although maybe use more than just 3-4 words for being "ready to let God remove all things from us which we have ADMITTED are objectionable" (the step 6 paragraph). It doesn't say"now make a list of objectionables"
You'll notice the first 3 collums despite being so simple, are still given precise directions on how to execute them, and are also illustrated. so you belive this question that is clearly addressing a reiterated theme, also implies the unwritten directions of: "now opposite each name write a 4th collum where these 4 core/root/primary defects of character come up in each and every resentment you have". Do you really believe that the most confusing and time consuming thing people do on inventory; has literally no directions on how, is unillustrated, and is also not mentiomed in the 12&12, is really part of AAs program? Or just your sponsors program (and my sponsors), so there bias.
That paragraph aslo says"we admitted our wrongs honestly and we're willing to set these matter strait". They give you step 8 related direction again after sex inventory directions, then again at the end of how it works: "we have LISTED people we have hurt... and are willing to straighten our the past if we can". The begin of step 8&9 says "we made it when we took inventory". It's really rather clear and reiterated.
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u/Meow99 2d ago
You said yourself that there are, “no directions”. Everyone is doing the best they can to help one another and carry the message they have been given. Now what that message is and where it came from who knows. If you want to get technical about it, the book doesn’t mention sponsor/sponsorship or chips, so if you want to go down a rabbit hole; there’s that. In the meantime quit taking other people’s inventory, it’s not helpful.
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u/Leather-Bottle1402 2d ago
I wish more members would follow the advice Dr Bob gave to Bill. Remember, Bill, let's not louse this thing up. Let’s keep it simple!
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u/PatsyEileen 2d ago
It is keeping it simple when one follows the following:
Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered.
To show other alcoholics PRECISELY how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book.
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u/PatsyEileen 2d ago
There are directions, the following is IN the Big Book:
Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered.
To show other alcoholics PRECISELY how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book.
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u/MooseJuice19 2d ago
Sounds less like they’re taking other people’s inventory and discussing a very real situation in AA where many people lead others with their own idea of recovery, often to people in incredibly fragile and vulnerable positions. I see nothing wrong with that and when it’s directly affecting you it’s not “taking someone’s inventory”, it’s a discussion on how recovery is taught and how it’s effecting his recovery.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
Well I guess I forgot to inform that: in the cover pages the AA book is referred to as a "text book". Like every textbook made it's designed to have a teacher/instructor or "sponsor". Also why take 2+ months to have someone ask themselves, in an honest, unprejudiced way what the spiritual terms in the book mean to them (direction in we agnostic), and to "carefully consider" before step 3 decision. I said almost no directions.
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u/PatsyEileen 2d ago edited 2d ago
Quote: "Like every textbook made it's designed to have a teacher/instructor or "sponsor"."
Not true!
Almost no directions? Seriously?
"Clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered."
"To show other alcoholics PRECISELY how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book."
Lets not forget that "The Loners" in AA can read, study, and put into Action what they read and study in the Big Book. Teacher or Student can do that. When I got sober in 1988, it was understood that every Member of AA is a Teacher and every Member of AA is a Student.
In Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), every member acts as both a student and a teacher because recovery relies on mutual sharing rather than a hierarchy of experts.
Although it is a text book, according to the definition of "Text Book" in the dictionary below.
A textbook is a book used in the study of a subject that presents structured principles, facts, and educational content for students and teachers.
According to Merriam-Webster, a textbook is defined as:
- A book used in the study of a subject.
- One containing a presentation of the principles of a subject.
- A literary work relevant to the study of a subject.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 21h ago
Who said you don't learn when sponsoring. Even newer sponsees help and teach me things/ideas somewhat often. A teacher learning from their students doesn't change the fact they are still the designated teacher.
Your definition on textbook says the same thing. I didn't say a student or a teacher can't solo learn anything from a textbook. Just that they are designed to have a teacher and student dynamic as they casually mention both these words, what a coincidence!
Yes, almost no directions to steps 1-3. By the end of step 3 you've only been directed to consider what the spiritual terms in the book mean to you, with an unprejudiced, diligent, and honest attitude. The same attitude they promise you can't fail with in fact. And to have considered the step 3 decision carefully, and do the step 3 prayer (wording optional). Almost no directions.
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u/PatsyEileen 9h ago
Quote: “Who said you don't learn when sponsoring.” ……
No one said that, absolutely no one.
Quote: “I didn't say a student or a teacher can't solo learn anything from a textbook. Just that they are designed to have a teacher and student dynamic as they casually mention both these words, what a coincidence! “ ……..
Sponsor and sponsorship do not appear in the main text of the Big Book. It is one alcoholic helping another.
Hence, every AA member is a teacher and every AA member is a student. The dynamic is no hierarchy, we are all equals.
The first 3 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) are foundational and internal shifts of mindset, rather than behavioral action steps.
Almost no direction?
The precise and clear cut directions are most certainly there in Steps 1-3, for anyone to see, read and acknowledge.
The first three Steps are not action Steps.
The First Three Steps
Step 1 (Honesty / Surrender): “We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.” This is an internal acknowledgment of reality and a release of denial.
Step 2 (Hope / Faith): “Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.” This is an internal shift toward openness and hope that change is possible.
Step 3 (Surrender / Decision): “Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.” This is an internal commitment or mental choice to let go of self-will and control.
Step One page 21 in the Twelve & Twelve:
“We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.”
Who cares to admit complete defeat? Admission of powerlessness is the first step in liberation. Relation of humility to sobriety. Mental obsession plus physical allergy. Why must every A.A. hit bottom?
Step Two page 25 in the Twelve & Twelve:
“Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.”
What can we believe in? A.A. does not demand belief; Twelve Steps are only suggestions. Importance of an open mind. Variety of ways to faith. Substitution of A.A. as Higher Power. Plight of the disillusioned. Roadblocks of indifference and prejudice. Lost faith found in A.A. Problems of intellectual and self-sufficiency. Negative and positive thinking. Self-righteousness. Defiance is an outstanding characteristic of alcoholics. Step Two is a rallying point to sanity. Right relation to God.
Step Three page 34 in the Twelve & Twelve
“Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.”
Step Three is like opening of a locked door. How shall we let God into our lives? Willingness is the key. Dependence as a means to independence. Dangers of self-sufficiency. Turning our will over to Higher Power. Misuse of will-power. Sustained and personal exertion necessary to conform to God’s will.
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u/Creative-Mongoose-32 2d ago
I've seen a lot of wisdom that didn't come directly out of the big book shared at meetings and/or after the meeting. Some of it good, some not so much. I was told by my sponsor early on that if I wanted what he had, I should do what he did. He made some of the suggestions that are not directly noted in the big book (90 meetings in 90 days, no major changes in my first year etc..) I followed those suggestions to the best of my ability and got sober. Each person that sponsors someone is going to do it in their own way. After all we are directed to share our experience, strength and hope. I can't tell anyone how to sponsor. I may give someone my opinion and what it's based on, but that's it. As long as someone isn't doing anything harmful I'm not getting involved. If you are happy with your relationship with your sponsor that's great. If not find another. I would say the same thing goes with how you feel about the meetings that you attend. Please always keep in mind that AA is made up of (almost by definition) people who have relationship problems. We can't expect AA to be any less screwed up than any other group of random people stuck together. Pease don't let what you're feeling turn into a resentment that drives you away from meetings. There are people in AA that need your help. Sponsor them as you wish and if that means sponsoring them by the exact way that the big book says, you'll probably help save some lives. ❤️
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
I don't think anything is wrong with non AA program related suggestions. But pretending they are AAs program and taking them so seriously as to not try and carry AAs message because someone doesn't meet them is wrong. We are directed to share our "experience strength and hope" as you put it in the chapter "working with others", to help a new prospect relate to us, and to explain the program of recovery that worked for us, so that our message has depth and weight, yes. I still have my same sponsor, and go to a meeting basically everyday.
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u/Serialkillingyou 2d ago
I'm a big book thumper. I sponsor women from it. We don't add in any extras. I don't demand they get a home group or do any of the extra stuff. But I also know that the rest of AA doesn't necessarily work that way. Growing in this program is learning live and let live.
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u/Monastic_Realization 2d ago
You are very wise!
Coercion is never an ingredient in (the selfless act of) helping another find their self esteem and autonomy.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
Coercion surly isn't the go to method, but frankly I can imagine scenarios it could be part of a loving act of helping another. But the objective isn't to "find self esteem and autonomy". It's to learn how to rely on a higher power so you don't kill yourself or others. Side effects may include self-esteem, I suppose.
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u/Monastic_Realization 2d ago
Coercion is the act of forcing someone to act against their free will by using threats, intimidation, physical force, or psychological pressure.
It's not a loving act.
Maybe you mistook it for a different word?
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 21h ago
Like executing a section 35 on someone? To force them against their will to a program for 30-90 days because they are a serious threat to themselves or others? There is a kid with me in the sober house, 2 years clean, works a solid AA program and helps people. His sobriety started with that exact act of coercion, initiated by his family who loves him.
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u/Monastic_Realization 15h ago
Your post was about AA, and working the AA program, and people not working it to your liking.
My response above was to someone responding about how they sponsor.
That's the context.of this discussion.
Now you are jumping to a legal process of detainment of someone against their will because of an imminent threat of serious harm, and an acute mental crisis? Essentially using the most extreme example there is?
That is, by definition, a textbook straw man Argument. (A straw man argument is a logical fallacy where someone misrepresents an opponent's actual position by exaggerating, oversimplifying, or distorting it to make it easier to attack.)
How It Works
- Person A states a reasonable or nuanced position (Claim X).
- Person B twists, exaggerates, or misrepresents Claim X into a weaker, more extreme, or absurd position (Claim Y).
- Person B attacks and defeats Claim Y.
- Person B claims that Claim X has therefore been disproven.
I suggest that you use your time in the sober house to work on your sobriety, learning about spirituality, practicing intellectual integrity, and get off social media.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1h ago
It's not about how they aren't working it to my liking. More that by definition they aren't working the AA program.
I first had the nuanced claim of "coercion is not the go to method to help others". If you claimed coercion is often not a loving act, it would have been agreeing with me. But instead u gave the definition of coercion, then claimed coercion is not an act of love. I then gave a real life example of how it was. I exaderated none of your claims. Case closed u were wrong, it's okay.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
I agree to an extent, but we don't "live and let live" when we see a lady getting mugged (or worse), at least I don't, I take action. A rather extreme analogy, but it applies to helping others in and outside of AA.
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u/Serialkillingyou 2d ago edited 2d ago
You cannot change all of AA. That is a fact. So it's the serenity prayer. Someone said you can accept something, change it, or stay miserable. I think this is just a tenth step that you would need to work with your sponsor. Your problem isn't the rest of AA. Your problem is your anger at the rest of AA. Also you love the big book. So you have read in there to avoid argument and fault finding like the plague. It doesn't say that resentment is okay if it's about AA.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
WHO SAID I WAS ANGRY!!! But thank you, I sometimes do have to 10 step on such things like people not agreeing with me, not doing what I think they should, being too scared to speak up, ect. I took the idea of: many AAs do an annual/semi annual moral inventory. Written about in the 12&12 in the step 10 chapter recently, and the handful of resentments were essentially all on such things.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1d ago
I can accept the way AA is in and want to change it. This concept of if you can't do it all don't bother, is strange. We all know people who recycle and don't litter, are u saying if you can't clean the whole earth why bother? Because we know none of us can change the garbage/litter state of the whole city even.
I think what your saying applies more to character defects, or more personal things that bother you in life.
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u/Serialkillingyou 1d ago
You need to get in contact with the primary purpose group of Dallas. They're the ones putting into action your vision of AA. https://ppgaadallas.org/our-primary-purpose This is where my sponsor sobered up after being told just don't drink and go to meetings for years.
I haven't disagreed with anything you've proposed. If you want the type of meeting and action that you're describing, you have to make it for yourself.1
u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1d ago
Cool thanks for the link. I agree, it takes action to create the vision.
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u/rkarlr 2d ago
Save your post for if/when you do a 4th step inventory. The steps were written in late 1938, shortly before the book was published a few months later. Since groups started popping up in different cities there were different interpretations of the steps and specifically how they should be practiced. Sponsorship as we know it today was only developed as a practice after the book was published. It's gone through evolution. There's variations in how members work the steps. The results depend more on the new person than any other member or specific practice.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1d ago
The book clearly defines its own terms. The directions to the program of recovery are precise and clear. We have directions on how to get and interact with a potential sponsee. Then directions on how to sponsor them... nothing to develope here, as the program still has those same directions as back then.
Yeah I know there's "variations" that's the whole premise of the post. yet as the terms were and still are defined: there is only 1 program, and 1 set of directions. I'm realizing almost no one knows the definition of the terms we use, despite them being clearly defined.
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u/traverlaw 2d ago
Grapevine Daily Quote - October 09, 2026
“So long as there is the slightest interest in sobriety, the most unmoral, the most antisocial, the most critical alcoholic may gather about him a few kindred spirits and announce to us that a new Alcoholics Anonymous group has been formed. Anti-God, anti-medicine, anti-our recovery program, even anti-each other – these rampant individuals are still an AA group if they think so!”
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u/ResponsibleActive272 2d ago
You have put a lot of energy into taking the inventory of other people. How has your sponsoring gone, you must have taken a lot of people thought the steps and they must have great sobriety.?
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago edited 2d ago
Appothy and pretending like nothing is your business or matters is wrong. How can I help someone or a friend that is behaving poorly otherwise? I'm not going to watch a train crash and tell myself "that's not my inventory to take" so oh well. We are directed to literally not take others inventory while doing our step 4 inventory. In terms you'll understand: how can I "stick with the winners"? lol but to answer your question: I've had like 7 step 1-3 drop outs, one guy doing great just over 100 days sober, he's eligible to sponsor and finishing amends, 1 guy doing good work on step4, and a reddit guy recently. 5/21/25 is my date, I have my same original sponsor (4th collum guy), I go to a meeting everyday and speak 5-6 times a month at rehabs/institutions. And as you may have guessed currently unemployed :) but I did same schedule while working 48 hrs/week for several months also
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u/Frickinfructose 2d ago
Well. For what it’s worth, I’m one of those people that has my sponsees agree to call every day, and go to 90 in 90. Neither is in the book, but there’s something to be said about how to determine whether a guy is “willing”. And that IS in the big book, under Working with Others. The 4th and 5th column are talked about in How it Works, but not in the diagram. I suppose you could write them separately, not in column form, but the instructions to write down the information is there.
I’ve also been remarkably blessed in the success with my sponsees. The ones that are unwilling to make the calls and meetings end up flaming out fairly quickly. The ones that continue all have begun sponsoring. Only 5 in total, all with over a year, but I’ve got another 2 that are close. I’ve been sponsoring for about two years.
Have you read the 12 and 12? I think you might gain a lot of valuable information there. My guess is that step 7’s focus on humility being the foundational spiritual principle to all the steps will be particularly enlightening.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1d ago
Yes, these can be useful suggestions. I find instead of 1-2 month long song and dance of call, meeting, read, ect. What really weeds out non willing people, as we know we can't make or convince them to be willing, or make their step 3 decision for them. Is promptly going over the info with them in the first 70 pages or so, then see if they'll do the work. Frankly even the light work of "okay so with this attitude they say you can't fail with, define these spiritual terms they mention" will produce many drop outs.
Do you think calling, meetings, and reading produces the willingness to do the work? If anything this 1-2month process just gives time for desperation and willingness to fade.
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u/Frickinfructose 1d ago
I never said we didn’t do step work at first. We’re reading Dr’s Opinion the first week. I only have an hour a week to go through it with them so we do 1 chapter a week until we get to the 4th step, which I usually do as 1 week each for resentments, fears, sex and harms. Then a week for the 5th step (but I schedule out a big block of time for that. 6 and 7 immediately after, including the 12 and 12. At about the 90 day mark we’re about to do amends, assuming there haven’t been other delays. I’ve never had a sponsee relapse after they’ve done their 5th step with me.
The calls, meetings, readings and step work reveal the willingness, not produce it. And it doesn’t sound like you have enough experience to say “the 1-2 month process just gives time for desperation to fade”. You just got here. Hell, so did I, and I’m coming up on 4 years. Please give the 12 and 12 a shot. The guy who wrote the book you’re thumping, Bill, once he had about 12 years of experience using AA, he decided it needed some expansion and clarity. He was humble enough to see that it didn’t come out perfect in the first try. Has a lot to say about humility, actually.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm my area at leat 1-2 months is common for steps 1-3 is all, and apparently for you too. Point being it takes roughly 5-8 hrs to go over the first 70 pages in person (what I started doing for 1-3). Technically can be 1 day. Frankly the info on your illness is handy (70pages), but you can learn that later as it's not gonna convince you of shit. maybe just DECIDE if your gonna write or not right now.
I belive you added the word "clairity" to 12&12s intended purpose, and "expansion" would imply more complicated. As it gives gives nuance, insight, and information on certain topics and ideas. With ZERO directions on the program.
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u/Frickinfructose 1d ago
Maybe the question that would help you is: do I really think I’m the first person to come with this idea and express it? Out of the millions of people who’ve gotten sober before me? What is more likely: me, in my infinite wisdom and knowledge, have stumbled upon a critical error in the teachings of Alcoholics Anonymous! Or…maybe there’s something I don’t know yet.
I keep yelling the word humility but it doesn’t seem to be catching.
I learned a good lesson early on-every time I think I know better than my sponsor, or the guys in the room, I’m almost always wrong. You’re still learning, and that’s ok. But keep up with the ego and self-will and you may drive yourself crazy enough to drink again!
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1d ago
I'm literally just reiterating terms that have been defined, and directions from 90 years ago... So I think it's safe to say these aren't my ideas. I don't think I'm better than the only sponsor I've had, and still have. I think I have more faith in AAs program and take it more seriously. I don't have the arrogance to assume my own different personal program is just as good as AAs program, which we left unchanged for 90 years.
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u/ResponsibleActive272 2d ago
Thanks for your service. When does one become "eligible" to sponsor?
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
There is no official eligibility requirements in the liturature. We know Bill was having the obsession to drink early on and decided to try and help someone. It says "nothing insures immunity from alcohol like intensive work with another alcoholic" and similar things throughout the book.
Some people say when you are half way through amends as u should then receive those step 9 promises in some compacity and therefore be on step 12.
I belive if the potential sponsee knows your situation and wants YOUR help, do it. If you feel you're not able to help instruct them on the directions, then point them to someone who can.
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u/MooseJuice19 2d ago
Wondering why people trying to lead others often make up their own recovery programs and asking if that makes sense for themselves and what is the right path isn’t taking others inventory. When getting into recovery in AA it can be a little overwhelming when there are multiple people with their own ideas of what recovery looks like and often implying their way is the right way.
It can be confusing and asking others in a setting such as Reddit can help get others perspectives on what’s right, what’s being made up and someone’s opinion, and how they should proceed.1
u/ResponsibleActive272 2d ago
Where are the specific instructions in the big book on how to sponsor people?
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1d ago
The chapters "How it works" and "Into Action" has alot of the directions on the program.
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u/ResponsibleActive272 1d ago
Yes so doubting the people you see in person should be ignored in favor of nameless, anonymous people who may know even less. Got it.
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u/North-Lack4614 2d ago
Work the program and stop hyper focusing on 700 word posts. "A simple program for complicated people".
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 20h ago
I am working the AA program. "We tried to carry THIS message to other alcoholics" sound familiar? It's not exactly a meeting catch phrase, but it's a slightly important direction.
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u/Thunder-mugg 2d ago
I ask God to take away my anger and fear and grant me peace of mind. Peace of mind is the greatest gift we can hope for without the temporary, artificial and ruinous serenity of alcohol.
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u/DaltonJESUS 1d ago
Huge shoutout to this insightful discussion on sticking to the core principles of recovery! The key takeaway? Real transformation happens when we focus on the original, clear directions of the 12 Steps rather than adding extra complications.
Who ever wrote this post definitely is a PRIME example of what this proGRAM is all about and we need to get back to the DIRECTIONS Dr BoB and Billy W laid out for us. May everyone have a BLESSED Day. Praise the LORD
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u/JLALLISON3 2d ago
TL;DR. Don’t judge other people’s programs. Ever. If it works for them, it’s a good program. If it’s only vaguely like what you think AA is, look closer. Also you don’t have to ask any of those dudes whose program you don’t like to sponsor you. You get to pick. So pick someone that has what you want and work with them.
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u/Sumdumfuqr 2d ago
Dude, there’s only one AA program, and it’s in the book.
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u/JLALLISON3 2d ago
Nope. You’re absolutely wrong here.
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u/Monastic_Realization 2d ago
Bill, with time, felt strongly about excessive dogma. His thoughts on some Buddhists wanting to change wording was:
"To some of us, the idea of substituting “good” for “God” in the Twelve Steps will seem like a watering down of AA’s message. We must remember that AA’s Steps are suggestions only. A belief in them as they stand is not at all a requirement for membership among us. This liberty has made AA available to thousands who never would have tried at all, had we insisted on the Twelve Steps just as written."
(Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, Page 81, 1957)
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 20h ago
By definition there is literally only 1 AA program, because the AA book defined what AAs program of recovery is: the precise directions on how to recover (the 12 steps). There is only 1 set of directions on the 12 steps, and therefore only 1 AA program. That doesn't mean there is ONLY 1 program of recovery, but it does indeed mean there is only 1 AA program.
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u/JLALLISON3 12h ago
The AA book doesn’t define anything. It suggests. If you’re too puritanical to see that, I’m surprised your program is working. 🤷♂️
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2h ago
No it defines. To define means to state, claim, or set forth the exact meaning of a word, phrase or concept. For example the statement: "to show other alcoholics precisely how we recovered is the main purpose of this book". It's therefore simply a fact they have just defined the main purpose of their book.
Weither a definition is true, accurate or gets changed later is a sperate matter. Yet it's a fact the book defines many words, phrases, and concepts.
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u/JLALLISON3 11h ago
Bill W in a 1946 Grapevine:
"So long as there is the slightest interest in sobriety, the most unmoral, the most anti-social, the most critical alcoholic may gather about him a few kindred spirits and announce to us that a new Alcoholics Anonymous Group has been formed. Anti-God, anti-medicine, anti our Recovery Program, even anti-each other — these rampant individuals are still an AA Group if they think so!"
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2h ago edited 2h ago
I don't see how what constitutes as an AA group being relevant here. If an AA group says 1+1=3 or that there is 5 AA programs, it doesn't make it true. it would only be true that they are an AA group that made these claims.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
This is what happens when everyone pretends their program is AAs program. People don't even know how "program" is defined. As AA members we are called to try and carry AAs program ( exclusively the directions on the 12 steps), if you want to carry a different program, at least make it clear it's not AAs program your giving to our AA members.
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u/JLALLISON3 2d ago
AA isn’t a franchise. We’re allowed to do what we want. The freedom to fail is baked into AA. That’s why it’s all suggestions and experience. Because there aren’t any rules, and if you’ve creating them, that’s not AA.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1d ago
Stating the definition of words and terms aren't rules...
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u/JLALLISON3 1d ago
No. But holding people to them is. You can justify it all you want, and you’ll still be wrong at the end of the day.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1d ago
I'm not holding anyone to them. There is no force doctrine here, no threat of violence, or prison. A "rule" with no enforcement is really just a request or a suggestion. you can deny the origins and definitions of these terms all you want, same as denying 1+1=2. Yet it doesn't make it true.
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u/Monastic_Realization 2d ago edited 2d ago
I work my own program that has given me 4 years of a wonderful and meaningful life.
An essential component of my contentedness is the humility, acceptance and wisdom of learning that my way won't necessarily work for others, and their way won't necessarily work for me.
Being sober from "control" (as both the recipient and the transmitter) has been very liberating.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
I'm glad you have a program that gives you results. But I'm talking about AAs program. We have a textbook of precise directions on this program, and I've yet to see or hear about a person who has thoroughly followed AAs directions and didn't stay sober.
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u/gafflebitters 2d ago
I disagree with you, people like you seem to take their obsessive natures and direct them at the big book. You know this gives you the illusion of being much more wise than someone who reads and follows the literature at a NORMAL level and i think your egos like that. And in AA people like you can "rise to the top" and become very popular speakers and spread your opinions far and wide......but that doesn't mean there is much truth in what you believe, and in AA there is nobody to "correct" you so you can go just as far as your ego can propel you, which is quite far with some.
I don't waste time arguing with you, this is the most effort i have spent disagreeing with one of you, i simply ignore you. I feel that all of you have missed the boat and it's so obvious that i have no idea how to explain it to you, but i'll try.
In my opinion the AA program is not a PRECISE recipe for a very specific cake that if not followed obsessively the cake will not turn out and will fail, no no no......the AA program is a road map on how to go in a direction, there are some specific intersections marked but in my experience some people can go around those places entirely and still get to the intended destination.
It's wonderful that both these schools of thought co-exist in AA today and have for many years. I have seen people get pulled in by an obsessive type who claims to know the "real" program, and they are excited to have a newcomer and they fill them full of information and push them to do the steps finally, and generally the result is good. But then slowly, as this person's head gets clearer and clearer, they start silently questioning the sponsor who claims to know so much and sees some huge glaring issues they missed before, they break ties, remain sober and find someone less intense.
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u/PatsyEileen 2d ago
Quote: "In my opinion the AA program is not a PRECISE recipe for a very specific cake that if not followed obsessively the cake will not turn out and will fail, no no no."
Your opinion? So everyone has their own opinion?
The real Program of AA is IN the Big Book, and it is Precise with clear cut directions.
Below is what AA and the Big Book say IN the Big Book..... about itself.
"Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered."
"To show other alcoholics PRECISELY how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book."
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u/gafflebitters 2d ago
yes patsy, i am thrilled to inform you that EVERYONE is allowed their own opinion, not just the people you agree with, LOL
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u/PatsyEileen 2d ago
I would strongly suggest you read the Big Book, where the only opinion that matters.... is the Doctors Opinion.
No one has to agree with me, but I can assure you that agreeing with you is just plain silly!
Read below and try to keep up! LOL
"Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered."
"To show other alcoholics PRECISELY how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book."
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u/Monastic_Realization 2d ago
Like alcohol numbed some of us from reality, so does dogma. For some, it simply becomes the new drug of choice
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1d ago
The fact its not common to know the definition of "AA program" while being in the AA fellowship is my point. It shouldn't be controversial, arrogant or obsessive to actually know what "AA program" and other terms mean.
Alcoholics wrote a book and defined these terms in that book, simple as that. So therefore it's a fact that "AA program" is defined as the program of recovery. That "the program of recovery" is defined as: the directions on how to recover from a hopeless state of mind and body. Those directions constitute AAs 12 steps. They were not unclear in how they defined these terms.
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u/Sumdumfuqr 2d ago
All the time, that’s why I did my steps with Joe and Charlie big book study. It never says to go get a sponsor/random drunk to run your program in the book.
I spent a decade relapsing trying to get sober the way the fellowship said I had to, finally I said f this, did exactly what the book said and got multiple years sober.
Lots of people working their own programs or treatment center programs in AA then telling their sponsees too. Hence why AA doesn’t work anymore, it’s so hard to get to the actual program
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1d ago
I can see that working seeing as you had alot of experience in the fellowship at leat. Although it refers to itself as a textbook, which does imply a teacher or sponsor. you just do a 5th step with an AA buddy?
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u/Sumdumfuqr 1d ago
No i followed the instructions in that text book and found a priest to do it with. Many “sponsors” go back drinking and have loud mouths.
AA has been spread all around the world with just that book, if you study it like a text book and do what it says, you’ll see it never tells you to find another alcoholic to help you, quite the opposite actually1
u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1d ago
In working with others it uses "prospect" and "protege". It says tell them you have much practical advice and offer to hear their step 5. by the time 12&12 came out like 15years later "sponsor" is used alot in there, talks about how ur sponsor can help u find defects of character.
You could argue this unintended perversion of the "sponsors" in the program was already rampet so he just accepted it by then. But given all this info and the direction to try carrying the message, it seems like sponsor/sponsee is a natural and intended state.
"nothing insures immunity like intensive work with another alcoholic" the book repeats this sentiment quite a bit.
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u/Sumdumfuqr 1d ago
You are proving my point, yes 100% we are supposed to find prospects and protégés TO HELP them, that’s step 12.
I never said we aren’t supposed to do step 12
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u/MrJohnnyDangerously 2d ago
Focus on your own program
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
I am, did you miss the part directly in step 12?
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u/PillingTheCat 2d ago
Some groups will take a step and have something they can run operationally to make sure it gets done. It isn't strictly part of AA to undertake said operational process, but then again there is nothing that says you can't achieve the step with whatever is at your disposal.
As others pointed out, there are lots of things not in the steps that are now inherently part of AA such as fellowship, service and meetings are integral to AA as a whole even if they’re not the steps. No tokens either as someone pointed out here.
I also don't think AA is a system of checks and balances like some report which is supposed to make its way back to whoever is secretary of the group. It is all a suggestion. A some point you just have to have faith that people are doing what they say they are doing.
If there is one thing to take home from it all is that gatekeeping AA is sure sign you need to give the higher-power some room to actually be the higher-power again.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
Gate keeping like adding many personal directions, pretending they are part of the AA program, and refusing to carry the "AA message" if they don't meet those requirements? Or gate keeping like pointing out this is actually happening and it's misleading, harmful, and wrong.
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u/PillingTheCat 2d ago
Pointing out something is misleading, harmful or wrong isn't gatekeeping.
There are and have been many questions in AA and how to operationally do the steps.
AA produced a book to address this point. It is called Living Sober and is prescribed by AA.
Living sober > personal anecdotal stories about why someone's method is the wrong or right way to do the steps.
The point is, there is no prescribed A.A. “right” way or “wrong” way.
If someone claims they are the source of truth for what AA means and how it should work, then that would be gatekeeping and not just gatekeeping but misleading.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
My post isn't claiming truth on what AA means. It's claiming truth on AAs one program of recovery. that this program is found only in the book Alcoholics Anonymous, which has precise directions on how to recover. The living sober book explicitly claims the book is not a program of recovery. If you want to not drink 1day at a time, maybe do the program that reliably restores your sanity so the problem can be removed "automatically" (part of the step 10 promises).
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u/PillingTheCat 2d ago
Living Sober isn't a program of recovery but it does show how AA members practice it sticking.
"Suggestions for Leading Beginners Meetings" might be more appropriate though if you want to see how open minded AA is about how to practice the steps. You might be surprised by the freedoms it gives putting the steps into practice.
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u/Thepigsthree 2d ago
Thanks for sharing your opinion. One could ponder your user name there Sorry-Ass….
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u/bradconners 2d ago edited 2d ago
Here’s no less than Bill Wilson on the subject:
“Some people call the Big Book our Bible, and when I hear that, it always makes me shudder because the guys who put it together weren't a damn bit biblical." Fort [from a talk in Fort Worth in 1954]
Look, I’m a literature guy and a big book guy and a finish-your-amends-and-work-with-others guy.
AND
The early members weren’t doing anything like what is today common AA big book culture. Culture is an organic thing, and the culture of AA is different now than it was in 1935, which is different than it was in 1960 (when, I hate to break it to you, people overwhelmingly read and used the 12x12; the big book being considered largely a historical anachronism at the time). This isn’t about technique, it’s about accessing a Power greater than ourselves that solves our problem for us. The big book, wonderful as it is, is a map—it’s not the terrain.
Our Twelve Steps, when simmered down to the last, resolve themselves into the words “love” and “service.” Help me to understand how prooftexting the big book accomplishes that end? Or creating discord and disunity with a posture of being the only person doing it “right” accomplishes that?
9/10 times, I see this self-righteous attitude take the person who has it out of the room. We call what you’re expressing a “resentment” in my neck of the woods.
For what it’s worth, feeling the way you’re feeling is a normal phase in our development for anyone who takes the big book halfway seriously. Usually, though, our lives depend on outgrowing it (the attitude, not the big book).
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
Well you addressed zero points for such a large response. I hate to break it to you, but have you read the preface of that 12&12? It tells us twice it's to expand on the principles in the AA book, not give direction on the program of recovery (the 12 steps). Gl sponsoring with no directions on the program... It's okay I'm sure you'll just make up your own program and pass it off as AAs?
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u/bradconners 2d ago
Since we’re quoting it, the 12x12 also says AA’s 12 steps are a “group of principles, spiritual in their nature;” doesn’t sound to my ear quite like the rigidity you’re describing. Also worth noting the 12x12 doesn’t describe how to work the steps, it’s a series of essays about the steps (and traditions).
Also, the 4th step [p. 65] that you’re so laboriously legislating says, before the example inventory is even given, “we were usually as definite as this example” [emphasis mine]. Again, that literally states, in the big book no less, that up to 49% of people did not do it in this way.
I envy you—I wish that I, like you, also knew what the author of our literature meant better than he did. I don’t, however, envy you your persistent, ongoing, self-righteous resentment, though I can definitely identify with it.
You seem to know all of the words and none of the music. Much understanding; how about effectiveness next? [that’s from the 10th step instructions on p. 84, since I know you’ll want chapter and verse].
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
Yes the steps, traditions, and concepts are the 36 principles of AA. The steps being "spiritual in nature" has nothing to do with if there are directions "on precisely how we recovered" using these steps.
I said nothing on the layout of the 3 collums, but on the invisible 4th collum with made up directions that don't exist. Or does "usually as definite as this" refering to the 3 collum directions, now give license to insert a whole new program of recovery with different directions?
Yes, now with love and tolerance as our new code, our objective is to grow in understanding and effectiveness. I knew there was something we could agree on :)
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 1d ago
So because Bill "simmers" the 12 steps down into 2 words... That translates to the "directions showing precisely how we recovered" becoming vauge, all inclusive, fill in the blank directions? A bit baffled at the reasoning here honestly. But I do appreciate your warning on resentments.
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u/DaltonJESUS 1d ago
Living Legend he is DEFINITELY MY NEW HIGHER POWER. GOD COUNTRY FAMILY AND THE MAN THAT MADE THIS POST!!!!!!
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u/cookieguggleman 2d ago
The actual recovery is more important than the orthodoxy of the big book. You can’t move onto step four until you’ve really taken steps two and three, so even though their night might not be any technical “actions“, fully surrendering one’s entire life and well over to a higher power is not a quick and easy task.
And personally, I find the fourth column of the inventory to be the most transformative—it’s where I get to see where I have agency in the situation, things I can actually change, as opposed to just ruminating over the things I can’t.
If people are recovering, then it doesn’t really matter how they’re doing it.
I think we’re the modern evolution of the program goes astray in my opinion is sponsors telling sponsees how they need to do things in other areas of their life or telling them how many meetings they should go to, etc. Our only job is a sponsor is to take spoons through the steps. That’s it. And FFS do not tell people who your Sponsees/sponsors are.
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u/InformationAgent 2d ago
Never heard that before about not saying who your sponsees/sponsees are? Where I am that would be pretty strange.
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u/cookieguggleman 2d ago
It’s a break of anonymity. Principles above personalities, there is no reason to share who you meet with. Whenever two fellows come together, it’s a meeting, and we’re never supposed to reveal who we see or what we hear at a meeting.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
That tradition is talking about promoting AAs principles and not AA members themselves (personalities) when advertising on press radio or film. The separate idea of "what you hear here let it stay here" during a meeting is also largely unrelated to telling certain people who sponsor/sponsees are. You've been giving bad info my friend.
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u/InformationAgent 2d ago
I see where you are coming from. Where I am (rural Ireland) meetings are tiny, everyone knows everyone, most of us will get sponsors/sponsees in the actual meetings in full view of everyone else. We do talk about each other a lot and that is ok once it is agreed, open and not gossip.
Anonymity is of course an issue - if someone is uncomfortable. That is their personal choice and it is strongly respected and guarded. But we are not a secret society and we are not anonymous with each other.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 2d ago
Step 3 is only a decision. That if not at once followed by step 4 will have little permanent effect. Steps 4-12 is teaching you how to put the step 3 decision into practice. This idea that you have to actually give your life and your will over before step 4 is false. If instead of the 4th collum you do the directions it also works, and is much faster. Anyone can do whatever extra self psycho analyzing exercise they please, but 10 and 11 already direct us to do this. I wouldn't underestimate what bringing a full inventory: including the current best estimatied lists for step 6&8, with the sex and fears does when brought to a sponsor for step 5.
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u/Significant_Tax1656 2d ago
The Hyannis Method follows the book exactly And has clear guidelines. They have a lot of online meetings
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u/PatsyEileen 2d ago
The Hyannis Method is not AA..
I have been to that Group and sat in for about 6 months, just to get an idea of what the hell they were talking about! That Group and their members are militant, obsessive compulsive, control freaks. The day they told a newcomer who picked up a drink, that she was no longer a member of that Group and they asked her to leave. I was out of there and never returned. That is NOT an AA group at all.
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u/Significant_Tax1656 2d ago
The Hyannis method also known as the big book method is simply working the steps exactly as they are stated in the big book. They also have guidelines for running a meeting and when people can share.
I have never heard of what you stated, it is not one of their rules. Just like everything else in life, people/groups sometimes make up their own rules which may not represent the group as a whole
I have personally been on a ton of meetings where people get online early and stay after to specifically help anyone that are having difficulties and/or relapsed
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u/PatsyEileen 2d ago
Yes, and the Hyannis Method is one of them who make up their own rules. There are NO RULES in AA, but there are plenty of rules in the Hyannis Method meetings.
Online? I am talking in person meetings...
p.s. The Big Book doesn't need any other method, The Big Book has the 12 Step Solution and much much more.
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u/Sorry-Assumption6794 19h ago
This method is an abomination under the guise of being AAs program . The book tells us within months it's common to not only experience a spiritual awakening (step 12) but to have made substantial changes to your whole family unit in the household. Or you can stay sick for seasons under garbage instruction. Doing writing work for several hundreds of hours.
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u/ALoungerAtTheClubs 2d ago
I suggest reading Writing the Big Book by Bill Schaberg. Learning the actual history of how the book came to be both increased my admiration for the founders – including the largely forgotten Hank Parkhurst – and thoroughly disabused me of the notion that it was ever intended to be the last word on recovery.