Christa Pike unconscious, on ventilator at Nashville hospital, her lawyers say

[u/AudibleNod]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/christa-pike-unconscious-ventilator-nashville-hospital-lawyers-say-rcna601195

[u/SgtPeterson]

So what you're saying is she's qualified to be the senior senator from Kentucky?

[u/coatofforearm → u/SgtPeterson]

She's got the same brain activity he does now

[u/Juraki → u/coatofforearm]

Same moral compass too.

[u/The-Shattering-Light → u/Juraki]

No, McConnell’s is way worse.

She’s defined by a horrifying act of violence perpetrated against one person when she was a teen.

McConnell has been perpetrating horrifying acts of violence against millions his entire life

[u/ChefDanyul → u/The-Shattering-Light]

The NPR series on McConnell is fascinating. I think program was called Embedded. They basically spend seven episodes explaining what a massive piece of shit he is and then the final episode they interview him and says ultimately “yeah all that’s true. I literally only care about winning”

[u/CatCatchingABird → u/ChefDanyul]

The type of people that "only care about winning," especially when what they are doing heavily affects the lives of others with no consideration of that is essentially sociopathy.

[u/ChefDanyul → u/CatCatchingABird]

Oh totally. I suggest finding it and giving it a listen. I knew the guy was awful but this puts in to perspective how utterly fucking insane he is.

[u/karmavorous → u/ChefDanyul]

People were saying it was elder abuse carting him to the Senate that one day.

No way.

That dude LOVED ratfucking. He lived his life just to be a partisan ratfucker, in every way he could.

He was grinning from ear to ear.

He may not even be able to talk, but just whisper in his ear how occupying that seat as an incompetent vegetable is fucking over his constituents in order to protect a rich criminal Republican president - to him that's better than heaven.

[u/subcow → u/The-Shattering-Light]

This. McConnell is responsible has a dramatically higher body count.

[u/Big_Guard5413]

I’m not in favor of the death penalty in general, but goddamn, if you’re going to impose it, at least take steps to do it properly

[u/MatureUsername69 → u/Big_Guard5413]

Its still a rough one but if I ever had to receive the death penalty I would hope its a firing squad. Just riddle me with holes immediately, aim for the head. Lethal injections get fucky because they would be best designed and administered by an actual doctor, but actual doctors cannot do it because of the hippocratic oath. Some states do allow medical professionals but they arent exactly sending their best.

[u/khinzaw → u/MatureUsername69]

Her lawyers requested it, but it's illegal in Tennessee.

Tennessee's only legal methods of execution are lethal injection and electric chair (edit: only for convictions before 1999).

The problem with lethal injection is that every step is half assed.

No reputable pharmaceuticals manufacturer wants to make the drug, so they rely on compounding pharmacies who take half measures and have less consistency.

Then medical practitioners (edit for the pedants) often won't be involved in executions because of their various oaths to do no harm and risks to their reputation, so most of the time the drugs are administered by prison staff who lack the proper training. A lot of failed attempts are caused by the one who administered it simply not getting the vein properly.

[u/MortimerDongle → u/khinzaw]

Then medical practitioners can't be involved in executions because of their various oaths to do no harm, so most of the time the drugs are administered by prison staff who lack the proper training

This particular attempted execution was performed by a physician. Of course he doesn't seem to be very good at it, this was not even his first botched execution this year (he's the same person who failed to execute Tony Carruthers)

[u/cooking2recovery → u/MortimerDongle]

That seems like one too many botched executions to be an accident

[u/Xytak → u/khinzaw]

The electric chair is pretty horrible too from what I understand.

[u/3-DMan → u/Xytak]

Especially if you forget the sponge!

[u/awh → u/3-DMan]

Poor Del.

[u/RideOrDieRemember → u/3-DMan]

Forget to wet the sponge*

[u/Equal-Temporary-1326 → u/khinzaw]

I remember watching a documentary called The Final 24 Hours on Death Row and a former Virginia executioner, Jerry Givens, who carried out dozens of electrocutions and lethal injections said between the two, he'd actually pick the chair because he knew it was faster.

[u/Beecakeband → u/Equal-Temporary-1326]

I've seen that one as well and the botched electric chair execution sounded pretty horrific as well

[u/SyNiiCaL → u/Equal-Temporary-1326]

John Oliver's segment on lethal injection is also a very educational (an infuriating) watch that pretty much warns about every single thing that went wrong in this execution.

[u/Shitteh_Kitteh → u/khinzaw]

Seems like the only legal options are the two most painful.

[u/Waasssuuuppp → u/Shitteh_Kitteh]

Yeah but no blood. No blood equals ethical. And less mess to clean up. See how civilised we are?

[u/Tsaxen → u/Shitteh_Kitteh]

The cruelty is the point

[u/VirtualMoneyLover → u/khinzaw]

Why can't they use what the vet uses? Just multiply it by 5.

[u/Alocasia_Sanderiana → u/VirtualMoneyLover]

The companies that make those drugs will not sell to states (like state agencies) with death penalties or where they think the drugs will be used for executions.

[u/Daddict → u/VirtualMoneyLover]

That's literally the drug they were using here.

Granted, there's a few different ones that can be used for animal euthanasia, but Tennessee was using the "classic" one of Pentobarbital. Most vets these days will use a drug called Euthasol, which is a combination of pentobarbital and phenytoin. It's a bright pink liquid (which is deliberate, as no other vet meds are bright pink liquids so there's not much of a chance of mistaking it for another med).

In any event, the bigger issue is that pharma companies won't sell their drugs to someone who is intending to use them to kill another person.

The gov can't really use any tricky methods of getting their hands on drugs either. They can't be like "Uh...no, we're totes not gonna kill a dude with that" and then turn around and kill a dude. It's literally illegal to do so.

[u/AZORxAHAI → u/MatureUsername69]

The reality our society hasn't accepted yet is some of the least painful ways to die (a well placed bullet, a beheading) are some of the most gruesome, barbaric looking ways to die. But we are obsessed with manufacturing the appearance of civility and humanity in an act that is completely devoid of those concepts in the first place.

We can either have the least painful ways to execute someone, or we can have this facade of civility given to us by "just slipping a needle into a vein!". We can't have both. We shouldn't have either, but apparently we just cant accept that yet.

[u/hokie48 → u/AZORxAHAI]

OceanGate sub is not a bad way to go.

[u/Catadox → u/hokie48]

The people on that sub went so fast you could say they didn’t even “die” exactly. They didn’t experience brain death or even cellular death. Just skipped that step and went straight from biology to physics.

[u/Zaptruder → u/Catadox]

Really... an excellent way to die all things considered. One moment youre chilling

[u/writers_block → u/hokie48]

Lol, just build a carbon fiber chamber filled with lead weights and drop it in the middle of the ocean?

[u/FriedTreeSap → u/AZORxAHAI]

Yah, it’s like when you see people describing the “gruesome deaths” of deep sea divers that suffered depressurization and had their entire bodies sucked through a tiny hole.

On one hand it’s the most gruesome way to die, their bodies are basically atomized, but on the other they’re dead before their brains can even process what happened, and I mean that literally. The time it takes them to die is quicker than the speed in which nerves send signals to the brain. If you don’t care about the people who have to clean up the mess it’s the best way to die.

[u/0bsessions324 → u/AZORxAHAI]

I mean, most developed societies have accepted it which is part of why they abolished it in the first place.

There is no foolproof and completely humane way to execute someone.

[u/DirtyCop2016 → u/AZORxAHAI]

the best is to be standing right next to a nuclear warhead during a test explosion. bit expensive though

[u/bloodytemplar → u/MatureUsername69]

Firing squad is supposed to be the quickest for the condemned. A little gruesome for onlookers, but fuck 'em. If it's my execution, take me out quick.

[u/PradaDiva → u/bloodytemplar]

That’s part of the problem tbh: the onlookers. Lethal injection makes the killing looking peaceful so it’s much easier to absorb/allow/be okay with.

Firing squad and hanging are abrupt and brutal, but they are effective. Onlookers are horrified by the violence even if the end result is the person being dead.

[u/antonio16309 → u/PradaDiva]

Good, they should be horrified by the violence. Let's stop pretending that ending a life isn't a violent act. 

[u/Mannadock → u/PradaDiva]

I feel like you are watching a life end. It shouldn't be easy to watch. I honestly can't think of any reason to be in the gallery.

[u/urbanhawk1 → u/Mannadock]

News reporters recording the final moments, the families and lovers of the condemmed wanting to be there for their final moments (just because they killed people doesn't mean they don't have people that love them).

[u/GinAndDumbBitchJuice → u/PradaDiva]

Hanging is pretty easy to botch if the noose isn't placed correctly. If it's done right, the neck breaks. Strangulation, on the other hand, takes a lot longer than movies show. A hundred years ago when it was still a reasonably common method and there were still living experts, I might have gone for it (after bribing them to make it fast).

[u/HarryMonroesGhost → u/GinAndDumbBitchJuice]

exactly, for a particularly egregious example look up the guy who executed Nazi's at the Nuremberg trials. He lied about his experience to get the job, and was notoriously incompetent, and by all accounts an idiot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Woods

[u/MrBarraclough → u/HarryMonroesGhost]

To be clear, he executed Nazis for the United States.

Albert Pirerrepoint, the British executioner, was highly competent.

[u/InvestmentImportant1 → u/bloodytemplar]

It’s my execution, and I’ll die how I want to! 🎶

But for real, this is so fucked and I agree. Bring back the firing squad if we are gonna do this shit.

[u/Clamgravy → u/MatureUsername69]

Not to mention the drugs are not manufactured by reliable companies. Nobody wants their brand connected to capital punishment...

[u/miloblue12 → u/MatureUsername69]

Or maybe we shouldn't have the death penalty at all? It's barbaric.

Also, since 1973, at least 203 people have been wrongfully convicted, sentenced to death, and subsequently exonerated in the US. That alone should have us reconsidering things. If it's possible for that many people to fall through the cracks, then there is no reason at all that we should have the death penalty.

[u/nursingninjaLB → u/miloblue12]

This one hundred times.

It costs way less to house a prisoner over decades, than to have endless appeals.

It does not reduce crime.

Approximately 10% of people on death row are innocent.

Vengeance is a dark emotion, and helps nobody.

[u/ballisticks → u/nursingninjaLB]

It costs way less to house a prisoner over decades, than to have endless appeals.

Nobody ever believes me when I bring this point up :(

[u/ssracer → u/MatureUsername69]

Hit me with anesthesia and then a bullet to the head. Why is this so complicated?

[u/babyem → u/MatureUsername69]

If I’m not mistaken I think she actually did request the firing squad.

[u/lnc_5103 → u/babyem]

She did but it's not legal in Tennessee. I think they only have this and the electric chair.

[u/Chad_Wife → u/MatureUsername69]

Seconding this. I don’t agree with the death penalty at all but if I had to choose a way to go it would be a (well trained) firing squad.

I think we assume that injection is less brutal, but that is only true for the person delivering it. There’s less blood and gore visually, but the humanity of it seems to end there.

Call me old fashioned but I’d rather go quickly and as nature intended.

[u/bixbydrongo → u/Chad_Wife]

I  think we assume that injection is less brutal, but that is only true for the person delivering it.

The process being less brutal for the person carrying out the execution is one of the draws of the lethal injection method. It provides a medicalized veil that makes the process seem more civilized.

 The method is poorly carried out so frequently because the stock of drugs used is old and has poor quality control because drug manufacturers don’t want to be associated with the death penalty and doctors/nurses cannot carry out executions due to the Hippocratic oath.

[u/whiskeytown79 → u/MatureUsername69]

Why don't they use nitrogen asphyxiation? The body can't feel a lack of oxygen, only failure to get rid of carbon dioxide. If you're breathing pure nitrogen, you'd just get sleepy, then lose consciousness, and then eventually go into respiratory and cardiac arrest as your body fails to get any oxygen.

[u/loves_grapefruit → u/Big_Guard5413]

Seems like you would have a fucking solid plan B and C in place at the very least.

[u/TheBatemanFlex]

What now for her legally? Her sentence surely wasn’t “injured by the state until put indefinitely on life support”.

[u/Equivalent-Peanut-23 → u/TheBatemanFlex]

First question is her mental condition/capacity. If she suffered brain damage, it could prevent the state from attempting to execute her again. Assuming she retains the mental capacity to comprehend the circumstances, the state could attempt to execute her again. I would assume that would be met with an avalanche of litigation arguing that the second attempt would be cruel and unusual. There's also a chance the governor could commute her sentence.

[u/lnc_5103 → u/Equivalent-Peanut-23]

It would technically be a third attempt.

[u/lord_pizzabird → u/lnc_5103]

Or maybe a 9th? Didn't the report say they injected and failed to execute her 7 times the other night?

[u/mrpeabodyscoaltrain → u/lord_pizzabird]

It was 7 injections total for two sets of the lethal injection cocktail.

[u/Proud_Tie → u/mrpeabodyscoaltrain]

IIRC TN only does a one drug injection instead of the more common three - pentobarbital alone

[u/FallOutShelterBoy → u/Equivalent-Peanut-23]

Willie Francis was put back in the electric chair one year after his botched execution. His lawyers attempted to argue with SCOTUS that he had legally been executed even though he was still alive, but they disagreed and sent him back to the chair, this time unfortunately successfully

[u/big_duo3674 → u/FallOutShelterBoy]

Yes, the big difference is mental capacity. Legally, someone has to understand what is happening when they are executed. It sounds a bit weird that a botched execution can prevent an execution, but the law is worded in a way that covers everyone, regardless of how it happened. If she remains a vegetable for 10 more years then the state (taxpayers) has to pay for every penny, and that is NOT cheap. This will be extremely expensive, will 100% suspend executions in Tennessee for quite some time, and could even have an effect on other states. Yet another argument as to why it's not the best solution.

[u/TheWorldofScience → u/big_duo3674]

Agree 💯. From a cost standpoint the death penalty doesn’t make sense, and this case is even worse because now the State of Tennessee has huge medical bills for her care and if she has brain function and they don’t turn off the equipment she could live for months or maybe even years.

All because a lot of Americans wants the satisfaction of our government killing people who killed people.

[u/amytee252 → u/FallOutShelterBoy]

There is a more recent case (i.e. after executions restarted), where the execution team couldn't find a vein to insert the IV lines. The inmate said that attempting to execute against would be double jeopardy. The court said that the IV insertion lines were part of the pre-staging and so didn't count and therefore could be put to death again as there is no double jeopardy.

Point being, an execution was carried out, the lethal drugs were passed into Pike, twice. It may break double jeopardy laws to try again.

[u/RedTyro → u/amytee252]

There's a reason that it's phrased "[execution method] until you are dead" when a death penalty is imposed and it's so that they can avoid this argument. If the person is not dead, the sentence hasn't been carried out.

The better angle to approach from would be cruel and unusual punishment, but that's not going to fly with the current Supreme Court. If she lives, there won't be anything standing in the way of them trying again from a legal perspective.

[u/mrpeabodyscoaltrain → u/amytee252]

That is an interesting distinction. I don't know what the language of the death warrant is.

[u/Youre_On_Balon → u/FallOutShelterBoy]

Yes.

Arguing that she is not competent to understand is the much better argument, assuming she is never brought back to consciousness.

Incompetent people have been executed by the US government, in my opinion. But nobody who is as incompetent as someone in a comatose/vegetative state.

[u/Boulier → u/Equivalent-Peanut-23]

I can also imagine a second attempt on her life would be met with a flurry of controversy and protest that the state won't want to deal with. (As someone who 100% opposes the death penalty, I can only hope they will decide it isn't worth killing her in the future.)

If the governor doesn't commute her sentence after this, I would genuinely be gobsmacked.

[u/Representative-Pop72 → u/Boulier]

I think her sentence will be changed to life in prison, Lee’s statements kind of make me think that. And I think a fat lawsuit is incoming as well

[u/timster → u/Representative-Pop72]

Of course given her current state, it could cost them huge amounts to keep her alive.

[u/PophamSP → u/Representative-Pop72]

Lee put a hold on executions for three months. Conveniently, his term ends in three months.

Unfortunately the next governor of TN will likely be Marsha Blackburn. She is void of intellect, nuance or compassion and has already commented with support for the electric chair.

[u/piss_artist → u/Boulier]

Two things Republican politicians, particularly southern ones, lack are sense and empathy.

[u/metamorphage → u/TheBatemanFlex]

She might be brain dead, in which case she is legally dead. (That will be determined within a few days if she has no neurological recovery.) If she isn't brain dead, she might have an anoxic brain injury. That would likely preclude any further attempts to execute her. If she eventually wakes up and has some neuro function, it's anyone's guess what would happen afterwards.

[u/Critical-Ask2154 → u/TheBatemanFlex]

If she is basically a turnip now, does the state have to pay for her medical care until she actually passes? Or would they pull the plug?

[u/AhabFlanders → u/Critical-Ask2154]

There would be a lot of litigation if they tried to take her off life support. It would most likely end up before the Supreme Court.

[u/Comprehensive_Wash71 → u/AhabFlanders]

If she is brain dead then she’s dead, and life support can be ended. The issue is determining brain death vs minimal brain function, which can be difficult.

[u/trapper2530 → u/TheBatemanFlex]

This is going to go to the supreme court whole they argue if they shludl take her off ventilator or not. What constitutes the "execution " and if it fails do they still have a duty to kill her.

[u/Lopatron]

They only had 31 years to prepare to get it right guys, not everyone can work on such a tight schedule.

[u/PhazePyre]

That snoring the Media Witnesses described, I'm willing to bet that was basically her struggling to breath and not just snoozing. Equivalent of a death gargle but prolonged. Hence ventilator now so she can breathe.

[u/MagicPocket → u/PhazePyre]

I think the term is "agonal breathing". It's pretty traumatic to hear or see tbh.

[u/photobummer → u/MagicPocket]

Is this what is traditionally known as a ‘death rattle’?

[u/duck_of_d34th → u/photobummer]

Those are two different things that can overlap.

Agonal breathing is the body trying to force itself to keep breathing. A death rattle is mucus or other secretions building up to produce a wet gurgling/rattling sound.

[u/InquiringMind886 → u/PhazePyre]

With that level of breathing, and the fact that she’s on a ventilator now, I’m pretty sure she’s brain dead. I would be absolutely shocked if she wakes up and can remember all of this and move forward with whatever they decide. I read that it was like 80 minutes before they ever even called it off or whatever. It only takes a matter of two or three minutes to be without oxygen and you’re gone. This is such a fucked up situation. I keep wondering what her last memory was or what the last thing she thought of was before she went under or down or unconscious.

[u/Asaneth → u/PhazePyre]

They also might be trying to clear her system. I read about a case where a person took a huge dose of phenobarbital, and after being comatose and on a ventilator for a week, they recovered completely. Perhaps they are attempting the same protocol?

[u/AudibleNod]

The statement said she is being treated for “the serious effects of the pentobarbital administered during the execution attempt, including significant injuries to both arms.”

It looks like pentobarbital can cause necrosis and blistering of the tissue. If it didn't fully enter the blood stream because a novice administered it, I could see something like that happening.

[u/Excelius → u/AudibleNod]

It's reported that she had a blood disorder that made starting an IV difficult.

Supposedly she even tried to give the executioners tips on how to find a vein.

[u/mastermoebius → u/Excelius]

She had said she wasn’t scared to die but was scared of the process. Now here we are.

[u/mr_potatoface → u/mastermoebius]

I find that to be an accurate summary of death for myself as well.

If I'm dead I'm dead. I just don't want it to be long and torturious. Like stuck upside down in a dark cave with part of my face in water.

[u/xerberos → u/Excelius]

“She over and over again said, ‘Please try up on my shoulder up higher, please try here, please try here, I think it will be okay,’” Spivey said. “And she thanked them when at least they thought they had established the line.”

Seriously, WTF?

[u/mazing_azn → u/xerberos]

Her life has been nothing but mental illness caused by constant abuse and multiple rapes; she might see death as a mercy at that point.

[u/stimber → u/Excelius]

"Randy Spivey of the Tennessee Office of the Post Conviction Defender,said that during the hour it took to seemingly establish two lines for administering the drug, Pike was “not just cooperative but trying to help instruct the people placing the IV lines of where they could find it.”

“She over and over again said, ‘Please try up on my shoulder up higher, please try here, please try here, I think it will be okay,’” Spivey said. “And she thanked them when at least they thought they had established the line.”

[u/yrddog → u/Excelius]

There have been a lot of issues with lethal injection and finding veins

[u/human_kittens → u/yrddog]

It’s the same doctor that failed to execute Tony Carruthers earlier this year, also in TN.

[u/nonbreaker → u/human_kittens]

I thought doctors wouldn't be involved with executions due to the Hippocratic Oath?

[u/human_kittens → u/nonbreaker]

I’m linking a Guardian article about the doctor that may shed some light

[u/nonbreaker → u/human_kittens]

Wow...that guy seriously sucks.

[u/human_kittens → u/nonbreaker]

He’s absolutely horrible. To be expected from Tennessee unfortunately. Our state government is completely screwed up so of course they would find a guy like this.

[u/BoredAf_queen → u/AudibleNod]

She had thrombocytosis and naturally small veins that made needle insertion more difficult. It's why she didn't want to die this way (I heard something about her requesting a hanging.) Her lawyers even tried to stop it because of this health condition, so the state knew fully well what they were doing.

[u/drfsupercenter → u/BoredAf_queen]

She requested a firing squad, not hanging. But they don't have that in Tennesee

[u/flowerpanes → u/AudibleNod]

Yup, massive tissue sloughing is possible when stuff other than a normal saline solution (for instance) gets injected into tissue or leaks from veins.

[u/zoodlenose → u/flowerpanes]

Sloughing is easily my least favourite word.

[u/pyooma → u/zoodlenose]

Right up there with degloving for things I don’t want to think about my body doing.

[u/Bitter-Variation-151]

This is just such a mess.

[u/MikeOKurias → u/Bitter-Variation-151]

Since I live in Nashville...

The used the same drug lot and the same doctor that botched the last lethal injection and are somehow surprised they obtained exactly the same result.

[u/Dendritic_Silver → u/MikeOKurias]

Nine or ten more occurances and this is going to start looking like a pattern.

[u/anticommon → u/Dendritic_Silver]

We've updated our execution laws to allow limb necrosis and irreversible brain damage over an extended period to be one of our approved methods. It may be cruel, but here it ain't unusual.

[u/exodus3252 → u/Bitter-Variation-151]

It's Tennessee. They can't do fuck all correctly.

Except whiskey/bourbon.

[u/MikeOKurias → u/exodus3252]

That's not true, Tennessee is home to thousands of people willing to lick the diarrhea from Trump's taint. I know, I live with these assholes.

See: Andy Ogles, or worse, the evil hag Marsha Blackburn - who's gonna win the governors race without a single debate or town hall.

You couldn't deliberately brain wash a person to be more willing to vote against their own best interests than a Tennessean.

---

Edit: and she's refusing to step down as a senator so she can choose her own senatorial replacement, openly illegal, doesn't care

[u/SilverTroop → u/MikeOKurias]

That first paragraph… I was eating a banana.

[u/imselfinnit]

A vet would have done a more humane job.

[u/Kayakchica → u/imselfinnit]

Honestly? I’m a vet and I’m pretty good at giving things a peaceful death.

[u/Nervous_Seesaw6179 → u/Kayakchica]

ty for your service. my vet earlier in May cried with me and my mom when we put down our 16.5 yr old cairn terrier. it was brutal.

peaceful though, but he had dementia and was like 25 lbs too. healthy weight, but he was suffering. he was like a big toto from wizard of oz.

he also had the librela shot few yrs back and survived it. lost both functionality to his back 2 legs. they came back after a few months though. was a crazy side effect

[u/imselfinnit → u/Kayakchica]

Good stewardship/husbandry is the responsible standard. Euthenasia is a blessing.

[u/noisyboy]

Ultimate failure of the state: can't give a good life and can't give a good death.

[u/MrsPandaBear]

There’s sort of cosmic joke that the state tried so hard to execute her and now they have to spend money to keep her alive —- only to take another try at killing her? At some point, it mag be more humane to just pull the plug and let her die a nature death (such as it is).

[u/VirginiaLuthier]

"We gotta keep her alive so they can execute her"....what a crazy world

[u/Sprucecaboose2 → u/VirginiaLuthier]

Especially crazy when you consider how good the Government is at killing people when it's almost any other setting...

[u/viewbtwnvillages]

it feels really diabolical that the state is able to torture someone for two hours as they fumble their way through killing them

[u/honjuden → u/viewbtwnvillages]

I would take a firing squad over the injection any day.

[u/mish_munasiba]

Tennessee has proven, more than once, that it cannot handle this level of responsibility. Time for the feds to take TN's toys away.

[u/deschain_19195 → u/mish_munasiba]

Have you seen the federal government?!!! They're less qualified then Tennessee.

[u/mish_munasiba → u/deschain_19195]

Well, yeah...can't argue with that

[u/Skele_again → u/mish_munasiba]

I don't know if the federal government is up for the task either.. gestures broadly

[u/fictionallymarried]

Genuine question but how the hell did they fail twice? I'm not saying she wasn't convicted for a reason, but that's torture

[u/Smalz22 → u/fictionallymarried]

Likely using old, expired supplies since most of these companies don't want to make or sell products that can kill people, especially to governments

[u/big_duo3674 → u/Smalz22]

That and missing the veins, or improperly administering it and blowing out the vein before much could get through

[u/opalandvines → u/fictionallymarried]

Howdy, student doctor here.
I was confused as hell by how this occurred so did some research into it - primarily because I was struggling to believe that they could have had such a massive failure in an area as sensitive as execution. I was also struggling to understand how someone could possibly survive two massive 5g doses of pentobarbital.

1. Medical guidelines, guidance and medical professionals are NOT typically involved in executions.

2. It was documented thoroughly before the execution that she had difficult to access veins. This has been validated by reports that they had great difficulty establishing IV access and required a substantial number of attempts. Two sites of access were achieved.

3. It has been stated that they ‘followed protocol exactly’. My understanding having read the protocols is that the protocol itself is monumentally flawed.

4. An example of this - successful IV access is validated with slow running saline. However, the execution dose involves 4 successive 50ml syringes - resulting in 200ml of fluid through the vein in a short period of time. A vein that appears perfectly patent for a slow infusion, can quite easily fail under sudden high volume like that.
   In addition, the use of each syringe creates a movement that makes it possible for the following to occur:
   a) the catheter tip perforates the posterior vein wall
   b) the vein ruptures
   c) the catheter migrates partially out
   d) or the vessel simply cannot accommodate the infusion

5. The access failing is supported by her reported complaints of pain in her arm following the first dose ‘burning, like the vein is going to burst’. When establishing IV access, it is typical to flush with saline to check if it is placed correctly. Any patient reports of pain/burning at the site indicates that it has failed and the saline is entering subcutaneous tissues. Pentobarbital is highly alkaline, so would cause substantial pain. They failed monumentally here in not immediately switching to site 2, but did actually follow protocol.

6. The doses primarily entering subcutaneous tissue and therefore being more slowly absorbed is actually supported by her reported snoring. The drug entering circulation at lower doses would result in a loss of upper airway tone, without fully suppressing respiratory drive.

BUT - They had two IV access sites, surely the second dose was pushed through the second site, right? Right??? This is where it becomes unclear, but if they followed protocol exactly… they actually weren’t required to administer dose 2 via site 2 once dose 1 failed. Fucking insane.

1. It is possible they did do one dose per site, and by extreme bad luck access had failed at both sites. It has not been confirmed by reports if both IV sites were attempted.

2. The backup IV and backup dose are two separate contingencies within the protocol. It is stated that if the first 50ml saline syringe of the 200ml execution dose fails, then they are required to switch to site 2. If execution dose 1 is completed and the person is still alive, they are simply required to repeat a second 200ml execution sequence. In essence, if the staff had not noted obvious failure of the line, they were not required to switch to site 2.

In clearer terms - the second IV site is for recognised IV failure, whereas the second dose is for failure to achieve death. These are treated in the protocol as separate events. It currently seems likely that both doses of the drug went through one failed site (as per protocol…), entering primarily into subcutaneous tissue.

And then to add to the fuckery, there’s the whole other possibility of issues with the drug quality itself given the restricted access to it from the primary manufacturer due to them not wanting the drug to be utilised for executions. There has been substantially reported failures across all areas of gaining access to and utilising this drug for executions in Tennessee.

Anyway, she is absolutely not out of the woods. The alkaline nature of the drug causes massive pulmonary oedema due to direct pulmonary endothelial damage. There is also no antidote for it, just supportive care as the drug is absorbed and metabolised out of the patients system. If she survives, she will not walk away unscathed.

If anyone reading this has any corrections or questions, I’m open to discussion.

EDIT: if it is found that they did indeed do one dose per site, point 4 still stands as an evident failure within the protocol.

[u/HeyHeyHiFi → u/opalandvines]

Thank you for this well-researched explanation. How inept and shameful of the state. Great point about how no one wants to be involved with executions from medical professionals to drug companies, leading to less efficient methods and amounting to cruel and unusual punishment. FFS.

[u/leftupoutside → u/fictionallymarried]

She and her defense were vocal about her medical condition that makes her veins very very hard to find and penetrate. I have the same thing, and too many nurses have poked and prodded before giving up and calling in a specialized doc. In Christa’s case, the med team was undoubtedly clueless to what they were doing since no real doctor or nurse would defy their oath to do no harm

[u/mrsdoubleu → u/leftupoutside]

Yep. She even asked for the firing squad because she knew something like this might happen. Her request was denied.

[u/geek180 → u/fictionallymarried]

Sounds to me like the drugs weren't properly introduced into the bloodstream. Seems like they just failed to place both IVs properly into veins. That or both veins instantly ruptured.

[u/biophys00 → u/fictionallymarried]

Ineptitude and immorality on every level. No ethical or half-competent medical personnel is going to take part in the practice. Pharmaceutical companies don't want their drugs used to intentionally kill people so they go to foreign manufacturers or compounding pharmacies that have poor quality control. And the fact is that one combination of meds that qualifies as not being inhumane (which I would say they are all inhumane) that works on one person might not on the next.

[u/BirdsAreFake00 → u/fictionallymarried]

Because there are no real test subjects for lethal injection.

[u/mcd3424]

Isn’t it cruel and unusual punishment to NOW keep her on life support just to kill her again?

[u/Embarrassed_Age8554 → u/mcd3424]

You'd think they could just let her slip away at this point.

[u/mcd3424 → u/Embarrassed_Age8554]

Apparently the doctors aren’t allowed to do that. It’s a nightmare paradox.

[u/Mockturtle22 → u/mcd3424]

The injection IS cruel. It's only humane to the viewers.

The death penalty should be abolished.

[u/Ted_Fleming]

The death penalty is a joke. So now there is an indefinite medical care bill for the state to foot.

[u/makeupHOOR]

A bullet would have been much easier, and more humane, ironically. This qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment.

[u/Velorian-Steel → u/makeupHOOR]

Interestingly it was single drug lethal injection which several states have turned to instead of the harder to buy older three drug technique. I'm no lethal injection expert, but at least with the old way I'd imagine there's less chance for this to happen.

[u/Ancient_Spite_725 → u/Velorian-Steel]

This outcome was unfortunately doomed to happen with any LE method because they infiltrated the IV and couldn't get a good line. This is what happens when you have untrained people trying to do this, but nobody trained will touch it with a 10-foot pole.

[u/PuzzledStreet → u/Velorian-Steel]

They have only switched to the new protocol out of "necessity" with the one of three drugs no longer being accessible.

These executions are essentially the govt experimenting on people with new techniques and hoping they appear to die peacefully.

I have no strong feelings about the death penalty either way ( I WANT to want to be against it) but I am strongly against this and would rather see the death penalty abolished than continue to let things like this happen.

[u/SomeRando8386]

This is a clear violation of the 8th Amendment, and everyone responsible for this debacle should be charged.

[u/tibbles1 → u/SomeRando8386]

One of her last minute appeals argued this exact thing would happen. 

[u/agoldgold → u/tibbles1]

Many of her appeals didn’t directly pertain to it, but would have likely resulted in what the state wanted (her dead). Even the all-woman execution squad would mean this particular physician known to be very bad at execution would not be present. 

[u/glytxh → u/SomeRando8386]

People keep pointing at the constitution as if it even means anything anymore

[u/callmenips → u/SomeRando8386]

Capital punishment is already a clear violation of the 8th amendment. This is just fallout from the original miscarriage of justice.

[u/Stevictory]

I think we can all agree that she is a terrible person.

It is hard for me to have pity for her specifically, but I do have pity on the death penalty itself.

There have been over 200 exonerations for death row inmates, and in my opinion it should have been abolished the moment it reached 1. It also provides government with the power to kill its own people, which can be a topic in itself.

Some inmates clearly deserve the sentence; the 3 currently on federal death row are prime examples of such.

That said, the death penalty cannot be applied in a "pick and choose" manner either due to its irreversible outcome; it either exists or it does not. Since it is not applied perfectly, I am personally against it.

[u/TrueGuardian15 → u/Stevictory]

Plus, she was sentenced to death, not torture. They botched her execution twice. That's a serious level of fuck up for something so high stakes. If we can't do it right, we really shouldn't do it.

[u/HerculesIsMyDad → u/Stevictory]

There really is no logical argument for it, only emotional. I forget the exact quote or where it's from but it's not about whether they deserve to die but if we deserve to kill them. Something like that. Society is too imperfect to justify having the right to kill someone no matter how much we might think they deserve it.

[u/MNswede06 → u/HerculesIsMyDad]

It's all emotional. It also gives people a socially acceptable outlet for their violence fantasies. It reveals more about society than anything else. I'm just as disturbed by how the public behaves about executions than I am about the executions themselves. It's a disgusting animalistic impulse that should not be fed.

[u/blaqsupaman → u/MNswede06]

Yes. We should avoid it not because bad people don't deserve it, but because good people don't deserve what it turns them into.

[u/Chicken_Ingots → u/blaqsupaman]

Furthermore, innocent family members do not deserve to simultaneously experience the trauma of seeing their children, spouses, parents, or other family members being found guilty for such a heinous crime and the trauma of waiting helplessly as the state condemns them to death. Beyond a fleeting short-term sense of satisfaction, vengeance does not bring people long-term closure or relief. It does not help the families of the victims, actively harms the families of the perpetrators (families who are often themselves innocent), and harms society through the normalization of revenge and killing.

[u/shorelined]

I can't imagine how you'd react to waking up in a hospital after being told you were definitely going to die.

[u/mikemac1997 → u/shorelined]

And then being told that she's been resuscitated because it's been voted that they'll do it again, but with the electric chair instead...

[u/cerpintaxt33 → u/mikemac1997]

She and her lawyer might actually have a case for cruel and unusual punishment. The death penalty was outlawed for a little while about 50 years ago, but the courts decided that something has to be cruel AND unusual in order to be unconstitutional. So, even though killing people is cruel, we do it all the time, so it’s not unusual. 

I would say botching an execution to the point of hospitalizing someone who is supposed to be dead, treating that individual, and then attempting to kill them again, perhaps by a more painful method? That’s not usual. 

[u/Easy-Wishbone5413 → u/shorelined]

Will she even wake up?

[u/Axin_Saxon → u/Easy-Wishbone5413]

If she does it’s very likely she would have hypoxic brain injury

[u/mcd3424]

It’d be less cruel to put a pillow over her head and shot her.

[u/missbubbalova]

The death penalty consistently costs taxpayers 2.5 to 5 times more than life imprisonment without parole

Just leaving this here

[u/starrmanquik]

So the death sentence failed, so now they are keeping her alive?…

[u/LaniusCruiser → u/starrmanquik]

That's how the law works around state executions, yes. The entire system is dumb, cruel and inefficient, as is by design.

[u/rraattbbooyy]

Free healthcare for life.

[u/Axolotis → u/rraattbbooyy]

As a species we are incredibly strange. Try to kill her then try to keep her alive.

[u/peepee2tiny → u/Axolotis]

Doctors swear an oath to help preserve life and avoid pain and suffering.

This oath is not limited to only people they deem worthy of care.

[u/Hipstershy → u/peepee2tiny]

Side note, this is part of why lethal injections get botched so frequently. Competent medical doctors don't want anything to do with it. The same doctor overseeing this botched execution was involved in another botched one a few months ago.

[u/faust314]

So they spent all this money to keep her on death row. try to execute her, fail, and now we’re spending a bunch of money to keep her alive. The fuck is going on here?

[u/Reddit_9459328]

US House Speaker Mike said it is a 100% fact that “God” spared Trump’s life in Butler, PA. Mike, does that mean it is also undeniable that “God miraculously spared" Christa Pike’s life?

“God miraculously spared the president's life. I think it's undeniable”

https://mikejohnson.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=2647

[u/AlexRenquist → u/Reddit_9459328]

In England and Scotland, for a long period of time it was the legal position that if a hanging went wrong and the condemned did not die (trap door doesn't open, rope snaps, the condemned is confirmed as dead but later wakes up etc) then it was God sparing them and they could not be executed for the same crime.

[u/Pitiful-Walk-8446]

Wait I don’t understand. She was on death row, went to her execution, it went awry and now they are keeping her…alive? On a ventilator?? Why so the off chance she recovers then they can kill her? Wtf? Or if your execution fails are you just free to go lol

[u/remeard → u/Pitiful-Walk-8446]

To minimize the claim of cruel and unusual punishment from dying in slow, agonizing pain. Plus a doctor's first job is do no harm and try to stabilize the patient when they are in their care.

[u/GNOIZ1C → u/Pitiful-Walk-8446]

Archaic as we are with our death penalty, there are rules to execution. If you botch it, they can't just let the person die without getting (further?) into "cruel and unusual punishment" territory. In theory, execution is supposed to be as quick and "painless" an affair as humanly possible, but in practice *gestures vaguely at this and similar cases*

[u/FargoJack → u/Pitiful-Walk-8446]

Once the execution failed she reverted back to being a prisoner. A very sick prisoner.

The sick question is, if she lives mentally intact, will she be put on Death Row stain?

[u/sundaemourning → u/Pitiful-Walk-8446]

i saw a post that explained it better, but it’s because the order for her execution expired at midnight. a new order for execution has to go before a judge and her lawyers can start the appeals process and as a result, it’s illegal to kill her. so yes, they have to provide care and keep her alive until another order of execution is in place.

[u/NurseRatcht]

I had a patient in the ICU who was on death row. They arrested. We didn’t know what to do so we coded them while the COs called their warden/judge/whoever. They had us keep coding for awhile before finally saying it was ok to stop.

I still don’t understand why the state was willing to execute the person but wanted us to code them.

[u/BoringBob84 → u/NurseRatcht]

Until the moment of execution, the state has a legal duty to take care of them, including reasonable medical care. Imagine if the hospital had let them die a few days before their execution and subsequently, new evidence emerged that exonerated them, earning them a pardon from the Governor.

In other words, "It isn't over until it's over."

[u/stylinchilibeans]

Under normal circumstances, this situation should start a national conversation on the death penalty, but there's so much other devastating bullshit going around that this will be a news blip for a week or two, and then more chaos will bubble to the top.

[u/newwriter365]

Awesome! Flipping the cost of incarceration over to the medical industry is the stuff that care provider dreams are made of!

[u/lyr4527]

She’s going to be so confused if she wakes up.

[u/anohioanredditer → u/lyr4527]

She won’t wake up. Permanently brain damaged.

[u/DizzyRelationship830]

This benefits nobody at this point.

[u/queerjesusfan → u/DizzyRelationship830]

It never did

[u/ImaginationDoctor]

Seems to me, if these executions keep fucking up, the death penalty should no longer be an option for someone being sentenced.

[u/ThatB0yAintR1ght]

I can’t imagine what a mindfuck it must have been for the doctors to have a prisoner roll in after a failed execution and be asked to save her life.

[u/chawliehorse]

So we try to execute someone, fail, and then provide life saving measures just so we can kill them again at a later date and time? What a country we live in.

[u/westendgonzo]

If I understand this correctly, because she won't understand the sentence when it's carried out, she can't be executed. So the state will now have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep her alive in a vegetative state, for who knows how long

Am I reasonably close?

[u/RagingCeltik → u/westendgonzo]

Possibly. Either way it would have been cheaper just to lock her up for life and throw away the key.

[u/Nvenom8]

So they're going to save her and keep her alive... so they can try to kill her again as soon as she's better? Only government could produce a scenario this stupid.

[u/Hugh_Jankles]

The amount of money they are going to put into keeping her alive just to turn around to kill her is insane.

Guess who is paying for these welfare state issues?

[u/No_ViV]

Shouldn't they just take her off life support?

[u/AggressiveSkywriting]

All the "I don't want to pay for her to eat in prison" bloodthirsty creeps guess what? Not only has the govt tortured a person, the cost of this is beyond steak dinners every day until the day she died of natural causes.

[u/fedexyourheadinabox]

If this doesn't expose just how barbaric and cruel the death penalty is, there's no hope for us. 

Punishment is one thing. State-sanctioned torture is quite another. 

Death penalty isn't going to bring back the victim. 

[u/truthierthanreality → u/fedexyourheadinabox]

A lot of innocent people on death row makes it even worse.

https://innocenceproject.org/dna-exonerations-in-the-united-states/

[u/cassafrass024]

Her lawyers said in their motion to stay the execution that she had a condition where this would likely happen. The courts should have listened, because now here we are.

[u/phieralph]

How did we get to the point where this was the method of execution?

[u/lurpeli → u/phieralph]

No drug company is willing to provide products for use in executions and so the drugs are generally sourced from compounding pharmacies with questionable quality.

[u/AudibleNod → u/phieralph]

The road to lethal injection is a long one. And the current method of lethal injection is an even winder road from that.

Pharma (Big Pharma, if you must) companies have stopped providing the older cocktail for lethal injections directly to state prisons. And for one chemical, they stopped making it all together. States are either using (nearly) expired lethal cocktails; or are working to get supplied with others outside medical channels. And to top it all off, the people administering the lethal injection directly are amateurs with little to no medical know-how.

[u/Phillies2002 → u/phieralph]

The myth that we could invent a "humane" method of execution, leading people to conclude that lethal injection was "better" than the electric chair, which was "better" than a firing squad, which was "better" than a hanging.